Arctic Fire

Hey Guys, another quick question.. I bought her used.. is there any easy way to check if the CCT's have been changed? maybe a case i can remove quick to look at them? does anyone have photos of stock vs. aftermarket CCT's installed that i could use as a guide?

thanks for the help.

TIm

Arctic Fire

Hey guys, I just read a bunch on the search pages, but i would still like any advice since this post is already up. I am somewhat mechanically inclined, nothing hardcore, is checking them something i can do or should i just take it into the shop?? again, whats the best method? should i just check the front assuming the rears have been changed as well if the fronts are? thanks guys.

-24 here today in the arctic circle, thinking of riding is driving me CRAZY!!

JamieDaugherty

I assume you are talking about identifying the updated Honda tensioners from the original parts. I have heard that there is a paint dot on the updated parts, but I do not know if this has been confirmed.

If you really are talking about aftermarket parts then that is easy. The Honda parts are a cast aluminum body with a 6mm bolt at the top to keep things sealed. The aftermarket ones have a machined aluminum plate that bolts the engine with a large threaded shaft protruding out along with a nut to lock it in place. Take a look in your Honda service manual (you DO have one, right?) and you'll see what the stock parts look like. Aftermarket ones look much different, so it's easy to tell.

If you are thinking about installing aftermarket tensioners I would suggest not. These parts are really only for racing and require adjustment. If this adjustment isn't done correctly then bad things can happen. Some guys will disagree with me on this, and that's ok.

nuhawk

OK Jamie, we've all read about CCT's and MCCT's and replacing cam chain tensioners to the hilt. My question is two part: In your opinion has Honda made significant advances in spring-loaded CCT's such that you would advocate replacing old units with new Honda parts? ie will they last more than 15K miles? Part 2: Are the same procedures used when replacing OEM CCT's with the new Honda parts?

JamieDaugherty

I think this is a good time to get this situation into perspective. Many people, myself included, are still running their original tensioners. My bike gets flogged daily, plus it's had 1000's of miles of racetrack use. I would not get into a panic about the tensioners. You will hear noises WAY before they fail, just pay attention to what your bike is doing and you will be ok.

Another thing - the 'update' to the tensioners is not something that's been confirmed. I don't think anyone knows for sure that Honda ever made a change, these are just rumors. It might have started because someone bought new ones and they had a paint dot and their original ones did not. Again, don't sweat this.

With all of that said, I'll tell you what I've done. I have replaced the 6mm bolt on the top of the tensioner with a long stainless steel M6 set screw. I used a nut and thread seal to keep it in place. This now acts as a stop in case my tensioners fail. They are only there as a fail-safe measure. Since my bike sees a lot of high rpm use I don't really want to get spit off. This is cheap and easy to do, so if you are looking for something to help you sleep better at night then maybe you should consider it.

iscoot

let us not forget that we are talking about and riding a HONDA motorcycle
for one good reason. they are the most reliable machines on the consumer
market! period.



i fell victum to the hysteria only to spend many stupid hours tearing down
my bike ( doing it wrong the first time). i suppose it was worth the trouble,
but still feel that APE and many of us are overreacting!!!! let's not fuel APE's
profits out of unjustified fear!

the previous post is absolutely correct. listen to your bike, not the fear mongers. look what fear mongering has done to our NATION!!!!!!

barkmagnet

Ohhhhh great,
So now I dont really need these tensioners???? Oh well I started doing it last night took about 2 hours to get down to the valve covers off. I changed the frt cct seems like no problem,working on the rear as I type. :-D . The rear is a little tight to get to. I am putting APE manual CCT's on.Gotta go and finish it up today. I will post my results tonight or tomorrow. Wish me luck.

iscoot

did not intend to suggest there was no need, just not the need suggested by
many.

Arctic Fire

Hey Barkmagnet,

Hope im not too late, but could you snap some digital photos for us all for reference? i just want to see whats involved.. anything would be appreciated by many i'm sure.. thanks for the tip jamie

JamieDaugherty

Barkmagnet - why did you remove the cam covers? That's not necessary to just replace the tensioners.

barkmagnet

I removed them so I know how to do it again, like when the rear exh. cam moves 1 tooth. Yeah I did it put it all back together & ran like s**t.
Take it back apart, ok rear cams are set, back together, sounds good, stalls, WTF. Sounds like no fuel............back apart now. I dont see any issues yet.

I didnt want to ride today anyway,its only 78 degrees.

Tweety

Based on information from two mechanics at different companies (albeit both Honda certified) the "update" was basicly a very small difference mainly to reduce chain movement and wear on an incorrectly adjusted engine/valves (edit) replaced "CCT" with "engine/valves". This would mean if you have the old ones and do not service the engine correctly (edit) replaced "adjust them" with "service the engine" (or not at all as the parts wear) the risk of a catastrophic failure could be greater...

Now this should mean (my thinking not theirs...) that with a well kept and correctly serviced engine the wear on the CCT's and the risk of failure should be basicly the same regardless of weather you have the old or the new type... This means the difference should only apply if you fail to service the engine correctly...(?!)

Since mine was due for for the big service anyway, with the engine mostly taken apart and had some 80k km on it I decided to spend the comparatively small sum of money on my peace of mind and replace the CCT's... And as I did the service myself (adjusting the valve's are serious entertainment...) I compared an "original" CCT mounted in 97 (I have a European "Firestorm", only minor differences...) with a "new generation" CCT and indeed they have a "paintdot" in place where it would not have worn of on the old one... and some parts of it was markedly different shaped, in a way that obviously wasn't a difference in wear on the old one... I can also say that at this point the most worn CCT was in my completely non-expertly opinion a tad above half worn... and could probably have gone on to do another 80k km before failing...

So as others have said... listen to your bike, take care of it and do the little stuff along the way and save yourself the money of the replacement... correct service and adjustment on the engine are far better than "upgraded" CCT's...

Feel free to disagree with all the above... It turned in to a long read... main points in short:

Yes they are different in some ways... Does it really matter if you use the stuff correct? NO!... But it migth save your *** if you don't service the engine correctly?!?...

(Edit) Added below:

As I said above my bike has a bit over 80k km on it... During the time I have owned it, I have done the "large & expensive" service wich involves the valves twice (every 2400km dunno what miles). The first time the valve components was as far as I could tell the original ones and some had passed the service limit by far, this means they had been in the acceptable range the previous time or incorrectly serviced, the second time around tho they where all well in the acceptable ranges.

barkmagnet

Ok, All is well.
It turns out I had the 2 little fuel tank lines crossed. Why stop there let's pull the carbs, again! The front carb choke cable was pulled out at the carb. Put it all back together, less fairing. Fire it up sounds nice.Went down the road and back and it sounds 100%. I readjusted the CCT's again while running.
Where I went wrong was after I installed the rear CCT I didn't have it tightened down enough. Luckily I turned it over by hand and thats when it got slack in the chain and you hear that sound.........ohh that didnt sound good.
I even saw that the rear CCT was not as far in as the front was. {sign}
Still better than work though.
Will ride tomorrow

nuhawk

Good points, Tweety! And not a long read - long subject! IMHO, one that needs to be discussed. Right after I bought my Superhawk and joined the board, I was crushed to learn of this critical engine "fault". In reading more and more about it, I am more and more comfortable with it. Both the failure and the fix are less threatening to me as an owner now. The valve train of any engine is the most vulnerable to failure simply due to its nature - no other part of the engine has more moving parts or works harder. Imperfections of any sort - whether it be by design, mechanics - ANY sort, spells doom for the engine as a whole. Regular and substantial maintenance seems to be the key to longevity no matter what equipment you choose. Perhaps for the less mechanically inclined, suggested maintenance by qualified Honda mechanics is a good idea. For those a little racier, maybe MCCT's are the way to go. I guess what I'm saying is maybe this is a matter of choice rather than that of a mechanical emergency. Thank you all for your comments. Let the debate rage on!

JamieDaugherty

There is no adjustment to the stock tensioners! They are self adjusting, that is their whole purpose in fact. Otherwise all you would need is a screw.

A side point - just because someone (or two people in this case) is a Honda certified mechanic doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. These guys certainly did not.

Tweety

Point taken... I know this...

Well in this case it cannot be attributed to the mechanics... more to my poor english vocabulary and skills in translating my train of though into English text (thinking in Swedish and writing in English is newer a good idea...) and excessive use of the word CCT...

See above for sligthly corrected post... I have left edited parts in italics...

Tweety

BTW Why can't you use tags in this forum to cross out the text you edit insted of the italics?? (line across the text, dunno the word in English) I can do that on older vBB's, is it a hack?

Hawkrider

Sorry, just not one of the font selections we have with this software.

Hawkrider

Check out some of the links on this search (for the word "pink"). There seems to be a little controversy about the dots based on location (worldwide). There are also some APE pics in these threads.

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...searchid=16079

iscoot

thanks to the help here, my '99 BlackHawk is roaring down the tarmac as it
should be!

APE CCT swap achieved.

Dave Wicks

I'll direct my questions/comments to Jamie..

I have felt that the stock tensioners with their ability to tighten up when needed is actually a good idea...I remember when all needed servicing to keep them in spec..But there ability to fail is a little unnerving. Your reponse of putting a longer bolt in to keep them from kicking back out all the way in case of a spring failure seems sensible..You have kind of taken the best of both worlds so to speak... Could you tell me/us more about how you did that..Did you find tdc before removed original bolt from CCT? Or did you remove the CCT to install bolt? Did you just remove the bolt and then put in longer and tighten until you felt it make contact with the plunger??

I'm interested in your approach
Dave

barkmagnet

My OE CCT's had what appeared to be a faded pink dot on them.

JamieDaugherty

Dave - Sure, no problem. I used M6 set screws that are 40mm long along with M6 nuts and thread seals. Everything is stainless (except the seals) because I like the idea of it looking good after a couple of years. I've attached a picture of a spare set. Now where's that other seal...

Yes, I just run the set screw down until it just touches the mechanism, then I backed it out about 1/4-1/2 turn. I wanted the movement to not be limited at all. The screws are there only as a failsafe measure. If the CCT fails the screws would probably get you home but you would not want to run the bike that way for any length of time.

If you are interested in parts like these just let me know.



If the above does not work go to http://www.daughertymotorsports.com/...0/dsc04134.jpg

Dave Wicks

Hey Jamie;

Thanks for the response, what process did you do to install your "fail-safe bolt"...Did you find TDC.. that sort of thing or simply put them in?? I have not touched mine so I maybe missing something...just wonder what you did

Take Care
Dave

JamieDaugherty

No, I didn't go through that process. When the tensioner is operating properly the chain tension is constant and there is never any slack in the system. I just put them in. The rear head is easy, for the front it's best to remove the tank to gain access.

Dave Wicks

Thanks Jamie;

Going to try and pick up those parts.
I think you are on to something, I'm going to sit down with my manual and think it through a bit more. I could work with the APE's units but I like the idea of a spring keeping a measure tension...too much too little could increase wear throughout the cam drive...OEM's are working good unless or until the spring breaks allowing plunger to back off..Probably on overrun.
Anybody else looking at this?? Greg, I'm impressed with your knowledge any thoughts??

Take Care
Dave

Hawkrider

Doing some hands-on research on this as I write. I'll get back to ya.

Tweety

I like that idea Jamie... I've put it on my to do list for what to do before bringing my baby out of winter storage...Since unfortunately here in Sweden we usually get a lot of that nasty cold white stuff that ruins my driving season...

The fact that I changed the CCT's in the first place was cuz I'm kinda paranoid about all things that CAN go wrong... and just cuz they are new, it doesn't mean that they are of my list of possible failures...

I dunno if it was Murphy or one of his later followers that stated that if there are more than one thing that can go wrong, usually the most disasterous sequence of events is the most likely...

Hawkrider

I've looked at the CCT and I have determined that replacing the stock CCT bolt with something else will NOT prevent failure of the CCT. If anything, it actually prevents the CCT from working properly if the aftermarket bolt is jammed against the internals. What this will essentially do is lock the CCT in place and not allow it to move either in or out. Over time, this could lead to the chain loosening and you would have to regularly back it off to allow the CCT to self-adjust. I guess it'd be like a manual CCT, maintenance-wise. Though, if the bolt were to loosen up over time, or if installed as Jamie has it (backed off 1/4-1/2 turn), it would NOT prevent the CCT from backing off at all, nor would it prevent itself from self-adjusting, just as the stock sealing bolt does.

Here is the reason why: I have attached a pic of the disassembled CCT to help illustrate. The male threaded part that rotates does not move in and out. It remains axially stationary and rotates in place. This part is also attached to the spring. As this part rotates, it pushes the internally threaded plunger out. As designed, the plunger should not be able to move back inward against spring pressure and the friction of the threads (similar to worm gear action). If the spring were to break, vibration would cause the plunger to move inward.

To summarize, installing another bolt as Jamie has done does nothing more than the stock sealing bolt. Tightening the bolt against the internals will prevent the CCT from self-adjusting.

JamieDaugherty

Well, I can tell you this - when adjusting mine the part that you screw certainly does go in and out. I actually checked this by putting a mark on the screwdriver. Is the one you show in the pictures an original one or is it the updated part? Also, where is the spring? I wish I had an extra one laying around to play with myself. I still say it would be nice to know 1) is there and updated design and 2) what is the difference.

Thanks for the info and pictures.