Comparing my new (to me) 1st gen '05 ZX-10 to the Super Hawk
10-11-2008, 10:10 PM
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Comparing my new (to me) 1st gen '05 ZX-10 to the Super Hawk
First off, let me just say this. I realize the 'Hawk is a bit dated bike, and the ZX has near 10 years of technology on it. However, the GXSR thread was comparing the inlines vs our beautiful twins, so I decided to make this thread.
After putting a few miles on it, here is my un-official comparison.
Ergos: They are very close. Neither factory seat is comfortable for extended periods of time. I always thought the Super Hawk was more sport touring oriented, but my 60 y/o Dad says he can't say one is more comfy than the other. However, he really wants to get a set of Heli-bars for the 'Hawk, as his wrists bother him after a few hours. He says a double bubble, heli bars, and a sargeant seat will make it perfect for him.
Handling: No comparison, the ZX wins without even trying. Have to credit the newer technology to this. Suspension has a vast amount more adjustments to it, and out of the box beats the ever-bottoming forks of the 'Hawk. Feels a lot more flickable. Granted, my 10 has a steering damper, but even when turned all the way down, theres no doubt.
Power: Not even a contest. You can argue low end torque till your blue in the face, but the 10 will beat the 'hawk, at any RPM. Wouldn't have a problem with an RC either. They bog alittle below 4k rpm's stock due to the moon gearing (17/39). A 16t front awakes the beast it really has. I think this is done to try and prevent from squids looping the bikes too easily. I have seen 104 indicated in first. Cruising on the highway in first, then grabbing a first full throttle will provide a nice view of the moon. These I-4's take off like a meth head to the local crack shack at high RPMs. I am still not used to it, I'm used to feeling the 'Hawk around 9k RPM's telling me to upshift already. It seems like the zx-10 just revs on and on. My Dad doesn't like it. He is an old school thumper guy at heart, hence the reason he loves the 'Hawk. He says its like riding a sewing machine. He likes to feel the bike running, he says he really can't on the ZX. I'm not partial either way, I love the roar of the V-twin, and love the screaming of the inline. Both sound great to me.
I know it seems a bit judgmental, but I don't mean it to be. The 'Hawk was the first real street bike that I bought with my own money. I love it for what it is, a good, jack of all trades bike that is still plenty capable of getting you in trouble on the streets, at a cheap purchase price. Every bike I will ever own for the rest of my life will always be compared to the 'Hawk. The ZX-10 just had the honors of being the first one.
Regardless, I'm looking forward to doing some riding with my Dad next year!
After putting a few miles on it, here is my un-official comparison.
Ergos: They are very close. Neither factory seat is comfortable for extended periods of time. I always thought the Super Hawk was more sport touring oriented, but my 60 y/o Dad says he can't say one is more comfy than the other. However, he really wants to get a set of Heli-bars for the 'Hawk, as his wrists bother him after a few hours. He says a double bubble, heli bars, and a sargeant seat will make it perfect for him.
Handling: No comparison, the ZX wins without even trying. Have to credit the newer technology to this. Suspension has a vast amount more adjustments to it, and out of the box beats the ever-bottoming forks of the 'Hawk. Feels a lot more flickable. Granted, my 10 has a steering damper, but even when turned all the way down, theres no doubt.
Power: Not even a contest. You can argue low end torque till your blue in the face, but the 10 will beat the 'hawk, at any RPM. Wouldn't have a problem with an RC either. They bog alittle below 4k rpm's stock due to the moon gearing (17/39). A 16t front awakes the beast it really has. I think this is done to try and prevent from squids looping the bikes too easily. I have seen 104 indicated in first. Cruising on the highway in first, then grabbing a first full throttle will provide a nice view of the moon. These I-4's take off like a meth head to the local crack shack at high RPMs. I am still not used to it, I'm used to feeling the 'Hawk around 9k RPM's telling me to upshift already. It seems like the zx-10 just revs on and on. My Dad doesn't like it. He is an old school thumper guy at heart, hence the reason he loves the 'Hawk. He says its like riding a sewing machine. He likes to feel the bike running, he says he really can't on the ZX. I'm not partial either way, I love the roar of the V-twin, and love the screaming of the inline. Both sound great to me.
I know it seems a bit judgmental, but I don't mean it to be. The 'Hawk was the first real street bike that I bought with my own money. I love it for what it is, a good, jack of all trades bike that is still plenty capable of getting you in trouble on the streets, at a cheap purchase price. Every bike I will ever own for the rest of my life will always be compared to the 'Hawk. The ZX-10 just had the honors of being the first one.
Regardless, I'm looking forward to doing some riding with my Dad next year!
10-12-2008, 01:50 AM
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Actually I only have one small think to note... Have you ridden an RC for any longer stretch? Cuz I don't think the ZX would outpower that hands down... For top end the ZX would, just the same as the hawk... but the midrange on the RC is phenomenal... The difference between a hawk and an RC is bigger than you might think... Other than that I whole heartedly agree...
10-12-2008, 07:11 PM
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Congrats on the ZX10, sounds like a blast. If the hawk wasn't all that I could handle I'd like to take a big inline for a top speed blast....but I think my hairline is telling me those days are in the rear view mirror.
Have fun with it!
Have fun with it!
10-12-2008, 07:24 PM
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Nice to hear. be careful on the new bike. I think what you are saying is probably true of most of the latest liter bikes - they make so much power and torque everywhere that it makes even the midrange of the SH feel weak by comparison. But for me at least the superhawk at least feels like it being utilized in the 50-90mph range (which is still risking a license every ride) - the big liter bikes are yawning at those speeds and begging to be opened up. Even at my age, I don't know if I have the willpower on a day to day basis to own one.
10-12-2008, 07:39 PM
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I think it's cool your Dad is riding the Superhawk. Hell, yes, buy him a Sargent seat for Christmas. Try to ride with him as often as you can because there aren't that many left. There will be many bikes in your stable before you are his age. Use every precaution to be there like he has for you.
10-12-2008, 08:46 PM
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Tell your Dad that I'm 62 this month, and I've got 23,000 on my '05 SuperHawk with a Sargent seat and stock bars. My arms do get sore on long stop and go rides at low speeds, but the Sargent made a world of difference for my butt.
Enjoy the new power, have fun and ride safe.
Enjoy the new power, have fun and ride safe.
10-13-2008, 12:37 AM
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Tell your Dad that I'm 62 this month, and I've got 23,000 on my '05 SuperHawk with a Sargent seat and stock bars. My arms do get sore on long stop and go rides at low speeds, but the Sargent made a world of difference for my butt.
Enjoy the new power, have fun and ride safe.
Enjoy the new power, have fun and ride safe.
10-13-2008, 12:44 AM
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I think it's cool your Dad is riding the Superhawk. Hell, yes, buy him a Sargent seat for Christmas. Try to ride with him as often as you can because there aren't that many left. There will be many bikes in your stable before you are his age. Use every precaution to be there like he has for you.
He's been retired for several years now, and doesn't have a ton of money in his budget to splurge on toys for himself. So, I figured I could help him out in appreciation for all the things he's done for me, upgrade my ride, and have another sportbike riding partner. Can't go wrong with that. 
10-13-2008, 12:49 AM
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I'll ask you, if you had a stock 'Hawk, and had to choose between Heli bars or a Sargent seat, which one would you go with? I was planning on buying one or the other for him for Christmas. I asked him and he says it's a 50/50 shot, but I think he is leaning more towards the bars, as the limited range on the 'Hawk doesn't allow for extended saddle time (Filling up every 110 miles or so). I don't think I could go wrong with either one though. It's looking like I won't be deploying till June, so I am hoping to get some riding time in with him before then. The CCT's are another thing I gotta get for him to install before the spring, too. The stockers have lasted for over 20k, but they are always on the back of my mind. I might have to let the shop do that, as I'm not home nearly enough now to do them myself. Would much rather be safe than sorry!
I'm in my mid 50s, have learned to ride with the ***** of my feet on the pegs, my back arched and my thighs against the tank. I can do 400 - 500 miles on the VTR no problemo with a few breaks. The "secret" is learning how to sit on the thing without weighting your arms.
10-13-2008, 01:00 AM
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Also Ottoman, thanks for the report on the 10R. I've been thinking about getting one, esp. since the price on '04s has dropped to the low $6k range. Haven't ridden one yet, but looking at the data have a few comments. Looking at the dyno graphs yeah, the 10R does make more power everywhere, but up to 6500 or 7000 rpm it is only a few H.P. advantage. Much after that the VTR starts to level off and the ninja just goes off the friggin' chain.
Ergos? I don't know. I think the bar over seat height of the VTR is 4.9 inches. The 10R is 1.6 inches. Might not matter on a short ride, and there are other factors involved, but on an all day ride a 3+ inches difference in height could make a big difference. Not that it matters to me. If I do buy the Kawi I'll still keep the VTR.
Ergos? I don't know. I think the bar over seat height of the VTR is 4.9 inches. The 10R is 1.6 inches. Might not matter on a short ride, and there are other factors involved, but on an all day ride a 3+ inches difference in height could make a big difference. Not that it matters to me. If I do buy the Kawi I'll still keep the VTR.
10-13-2008, 11:15 AM
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Also Ottoman, thanks for the report on the 10R. I've been thinking about getting one, esp. since the price on '04s has dropped to the low $6k range. Haven't ridden one yet, but looking at the data have a few comments. Looking at the dyno graphs yeah, the 10R does make more power everywhere, but up to 6500 or 7000 rpm it is only a few H.P. advantage. Much after that the VTR starts to level off and the ninja just goes off the friggin' chain.
Ergos? I don't know. I think the bar over seat height of the VTR is 4.9 inches. The 10R is 1.6 inches. Might not matter on a short ride, and there are other factors involved, but on an all day ride a 3+ inches difference in height could make a big difference. Not that it matters to me. If I do buy the Kawi I'll still keep the VTR.
Ergos? I don't know. I think the bar over seat height of the VTR is 4.9 inches. The 10R is 1.6 inches. Might not matter on a short ride, and there are other factors involved, but on an all day ride a 3+ inches difference in height could make a big difference. Not that it matters to me. If I do buy the Kawi I'll still keep the VTR.
Just gotta keep your eye open for deals. I got mine with 4k miles on it, in perfect condition for $5900. It's got frame sliders, seat bags, steering damper, Woodcraft engine cases, lap timer, and a double bubble windscreen on it. The dynographs can be alittle misleading sometime. I much rather prefer my ***-on-the-seat dyno. Like you said, the 6-7k range is close, but when riding the 10, you can just tell that it's warming up, and it's really not meant to be run in that RPM range. Anything after that, and it feels like someone is pushing your eyeballs back into your head.
10-13-2008, 11:23 AM
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I'll ask you, if you had a stock 'Hawk, and had to choose between Heli bars or a Sargent seat, which one would you go with? I was planning on buying one or the other for him for Christmas. I asked him and he says it's a 50/50 shot, but I think he is leaning more towards the bars, as the limited range on the 'Hawk doesn't allow for extended saddle time (Filling up every 110 miles or so). I don't think I could go wrong with either one though. It's looking like I won't be deploying till June, so I am hoping to get some riding time in with him before then. The CCT's are another thing I gotta get for him to install before the spring, too. The stockers have lasted for over 20k, but they are always on the back of my mind. I might have to let the shop do that, as I'm not home nearly enough now to do them myself. Would much rather be safe than sorry!
10-13-2008, 11:42 AM
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I was actually going to say the same as cliby... Go for the sargent and go cheap (comparatively) on a bar on top of the triple... That would get your dad both at a reasonable price... And I think it actually gives a even more upright position...
And adding to the chorus, having your 60'old dad riding with you is cool! My pops has also passed that mark and he's still riding... Mainly cruisers though, but once in a while he swaps me for the hawk... And apparently age doesn't slow you down when we are talking about bikes...
Not so you'd notice anyway...
You know... That's an very odd feeling isn't it... A little bit of pride and a tear in your eye... If you dad like mine "has always been there"... giving some small measure of it back feels good... but strange...
And adding to the chorus, having your 60'old dad riding with you is cool! My pops has also passed that mark and he's still riding... Mainly cruisers though, but once in a while he swaps me for the hawk... And apparently age doesn't slow you down when we are talking about bikes...
Not so you'd notice anyway...
Originally Posted by Ottoman
Yeah, I gotta hook him up with something for the 'Hawk this Christmas for sure! He really didn't like the fact that I got another bike when I already had the 'Hawk, but he sure liked the idea of me handing the keys off to him so we could do some riding together. He's been retired for several years now, and doesn't have a ton of money in his budget to splurge on toys for himself. So, I figured I could help him out in appreciation for all the things he's done for me, upgrade my ride, and have another sportbike riding partner. Can't go wrong with that.
He's been retired for several years now, and doesn't have a ton of money in his budget to splurge on toys for himself. So, I figured I could help him out in appreciation for all the things he's done for me, upgrade my ride, and have another sportbike riding partner. Can't go wrong with that.
10-13-2008, 11:50 AM
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Otto, you may want to try some risers on the SH. They are a lot cheaper than Heli-Bars and give you about 2" of rise to play with...I'll hook you up with a set to fit stock forks if you want them for your Pops...then you could get the seat for him for Christmas too
10-13-2008, 01:28 PM
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This is some stuff that I copied from JHORD's website, www.hordpower.com.
The first is RC51 vs. CBR1000RR. what you really want to take note of are the torque curves. The RC51 cams start working at about 7000 RPM The CBR1000RR cams come in at about 8500, but it makes as much torque as the RC below that. Then you get the RPM multiplier and HP goes to the moon!
A modified RC fattens up the torque substantially, giving more grunt. There's a reason why liter twins can't compete racing with i4s. Unless you can spin them REALLY fast.
I have a freind that had a 1000RR. He could open the throttle anywhere and say bye-bye to my Super Hawk. Not in the twisties though.
Both with PC3's and full exhausts. Just a comparo for Speedzilla.
Full Yosh, Thorsten airbox, ported heads, VP fuel, PC3R, Carmo extended rev limit, Wiseco high-comp pistons, Carrillo rods, Falicon Supercrank, etc. (vs. 100% stock bike)
The first is RC51 vs. CBR1000RR. what you really want to take note of are the torque curves. The RC51 cams start working at about 7000 RPM The CBR1000RR cams come in at about 8500, but it makes as much torque as the RC below that. Then you get the RPM multiplier and HP goes to the moon!
A modified RC fattens up the torque substantially, giving more grunt. There's a reason why liter twins can't compete racing with i4s. Unless you can spin them REALLY fast.
I have a freind that had a 1000RR. He could open the throttle anywhere and say bye-bye to my Super Hawk. Not in the twisties though.
Both with PC3's and full exhausts. Just a comparo for Speedzilla.
Full Yosh, Thorsten airbox, ported heads, VP fuel, PC3R, Carmo extended rev limit, Wiseco high-comp pistons, Carrillo rods, Falicon Supercrank, etc. (vs. 100% stock bike)
10-13-2008, 03:12 PM
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Otto, you may want to try some risers on the SH. They are a lot cheaper than Heli-Bars and give you about 2" of rise to play with...I'll hook you up with a set to fit stock forks if you want them for your Pops...then you could get the seat for him for Christmas too
10-14-2008, 12:51 PM
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I've had a Hawk, R6, F4, 600R, RC51 and a GSXR 750. The hawk was slowest by far. The new inline 4's engines spool out fast. All that garbage that you read about inline 4's in the mags not having any mid range don't matter. They get to 7KRPM quicker than you can blink. Whereas the twins just runs out of room at RPMs where the inlines are just getting started. The RC51 is no better, you ended up bouncing the rev limiter until you do the rev limiter mod for it. The RC51 is definitely heavier and slower than my Gixxer, the Gixxer spools up like most modern inline 4's like a bat out of hell. But that's not why Hayden won on that platform. Its supremely stable, for us normal folks if just playing around on straight piece of highway, the Gixxer or in this case the ZX10 will feel like its trouncing the Hawk or RC. Of course the funnest thing about the RC51 was you could feel the "Thunder" from the asphalt around an 8 feet circumference of the bike. I praise the hawk for being fast enough. And for having some good ergos compared to the RC. There's no comparing the these bike really, you should KNOW what you are buying into when getting a Hawk. Its like buying an old 60s Bo and Luke Duke General Lee Charger vs the new police interceptor Chargers that are out on the market.
10-14-2008, 02:30 PM
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I do like the power at just about any rpm of the Hawk, and it's really pretty fast, but keeping up with modern multis at high speeds on straight roads or the superslab is not the Hawk's mission, nor is it something I care about.
10-14-2008, 02:56 PM
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My Hawk won't keep up with my 955i anywhere...... It won't lean as far, and the torque on the triple is ****! BUT, my girlfriend HATES the passenger seat on the Triumph, and the pegs. She LOVES the Hawks passenger accomodations, and the fact it "sounds" like a real bike to her....... I hate passengers on the Triumph anyway, so its better off for me. The new liter bikes are really retarded fast. Any arguments over torque stop there. Even the R1 pulls in the low end better. And on a Zx-10? No comparison. Honda even stated the Hawk wasn't designed with racing in mind...... I have to disagree on ergos though. The hawk feels much more comfy on the highway than my buddy's 10, as we have swapped for 100 miles at a time.
I agree that learning to put the stomach on the tank or sit half cocked to unload wrists helps immensely with mileage runs. I've clocked 500 and change on the hawk and 1046 Daytona. Let me just say the daytona will never drive from illinois to VA in one day ever again.
I agree that learning to put the stomach on the tank or sit half cocked to unload wrists helps immensely with mileage runs. I've clocked 500 and change on the hawk and 1046 Daytona. Let me just say the daytona will never drive from illinois to VA in one day ever again.
10-14-2008, 02:56 PM
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when i hit the straights at the track i keep up with 1 of my buddies on his f4i. anything above that ( which is just about everything ) pulls away.
the hawk is a sport touring bike not a SS. damn fun on the street but i get spanked at the track. I still have tons of fun though, and thats the whole point.
tim
the hawk is a sport touring bike not a SS. damn fun on the street but i get spanked at the track. I still have tons of fun though, and thats the whole point.
tim
10-14-2008, 03:54 PM
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Late in the day, we got to the main highway. Still a winding road but more open turns. We took a detour to a small gas station and laughed about how we had covered the 14 miles of open winding roads along the river in 7 minutes. I don't think it was too far off actually. I was working hard to keep the group in sight.
That should have been my first warning. Then we proceeded to ride like that for another hour or so. I wish we had stayed in the tight twisties.
If you can't keep up on a tuned Super Hawk on the road, you probably shouldn't be trying.
10-14-2008, 04:32 PM
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The last time I rode mine, we had been on super tight, twisty mountain roads, some of it smooth, some of goat trails. When it was tight, I could twist the throttle at will and a lot of the time I would just pull away from the group.
Late in the day, we got to the main highway. Still a winding road but more open turns. We took a detour to a small gas station and laughed about how we had covered the 14 miles of open winding roads along the river in 7 minutes. I don't think it was too far off actually. I was working hard to keep the group in sight.
That should have been my first warning. Then we proceeded to ride like that for another hour or so. I wish we had stayed in the tight twisties.
If you can't keep up on a tuned Super Hawk on the road, you probably shouldn't be trying.
Late in the day, we got to the main highway. Still a winding road but more open turns. We took a detour to a small gas station and laughed about how we had covered the 14 miles of open winding roads along the river in 7 minutes. I don't think it was too far off actually. I was working hard to keep the group in sight.
That should have been my first warning. Then we proceeded to ride like that for another hour or so. I wish we had stayed in the tight twisties.
If you can't keep up on a tuned Super Hawk on the road, you probably shouldn't be trying.
That's the most ironic thing of it all. To be completely honest, when I first got my Hawk a few years back, I had no idea it would have been such a close knit "cult" group (Which to me is a good thing). I was simply looking for a nice, cheap, reliable bike - and that's exactly what I got. I don't know whether it's the V-twin, the natural reaction to "A superhawk???" or a combo of the like that attracts us owners to it, but it seems for the most part, guys on this forum have completed the bike circle of life and come back to it as it gets the job done, while being unique at the same time (Ala RC51, only more rare). Because of this, most have logged quite a few miles under the belt, which lets us out-run the squids on the newer, advanced machines, leaving us giggling as they power wheelie to attempt to make up for the slow time they made going through the twisties. But, if you are all about time, there is no doubt that you put rider A on a stock 'hawk, then a stock modern day inline, that Rider A will turn out faster times over and over on the inline. It's the beauty of technology.
Reguardless, I think after I get my '10r paid off, I will probably look for another Hawk with some minor cosmetic damage on the fairings. Some guys on here make their super hawks look like amazing street fighters, and I can't think of a better, cheaper, more reliable platform bike to start with. The v-twin sound is a must have for a street fighter, too. 15/50 gearing, better forks/front brakes, and you probably won't be able to knock the grin off my face with a sledgehammer.
10-15-2008, 08:22 AM
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I completely agree. On a track, there's no comparison. But it is fun to run up inside the 600s in the B group on a Super Hawk.
But my main point was that if you're going to try to be the fastest guy on a street ride, be out front and make sure you are in the groove. If you're not feeling it that day, or riding beyond your normal comfort level, or tired after a long day of riding, back off.
A VTR has plenty of capability to get you in trouble on a street ride. It's the random variables that will get you. I have a good friend that quit riding bikes after seeing me go down in his rear view mirror. And another behind me that hasn't ridden on the street since. Sold his RC51 and bought an R6 track bike.
It will be interesting to try and develop 600 corner speed on a hippo. I'm tired of waiting already.
But my main point was that if you're going to try to be the fastest guy on a street ride, be out front and make sure you are in the groove. If you're not feeling it that day, or riding beyond your normal comfort level, or tired after a long day of riding, back off.
A VTR has plenty of capability to get you in trouble on a street ride. It's the random variables that will get you. I have a good friend that quit riding bikes after seeing me go down in his rear view mirror. And another behind me that hasn't ridden on the street since. Sold his RC51 and bought an R6 track bike.
It will be interesting to try and develop 600 corner speed on a hippo. I'm tired of waiting already.
10-15-2008, 07:34 PM
#24
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