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Old Sep 23, 2014 | 08:57 PM
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So long freshly built engine. Blew it up at thermal club race track in palm springs on Sunday. Snapped a rod that blew its way through the case. Blew my starter right off. Not sure what caused it as I haven't opened it up yet but I am in need of a new motor. I have a few upcoming track days and will probably have to use my other motor for those but I still need another replacement so if you have one please contact me.

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Old Sep 23, 2014 | 09:09 PM
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This sucks. Sorry for your loss.

Take it the blow up didn't cause a crash?

Was this the motor in which you put JE high comp pistons?
Old Sep 23, 2014 | 09:17 PM
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that sucks... any chance you can salvage at least one of the new pistons? cams?

I recall reading someplace a quote from Roger D stating that under certain precise conditions (IIRC, typical to track) that the stock rods were prone to failure.

sorry to read of your misfortune.......

P.S. for what it's worth, you can get some Carrillo custom rods (like I did) for about $600 for next time (write Buzz at Dynoman Performance and he can fix you up)
Old Sep 23, 2014 | 09:58 PM
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Yea I work at Ducati and the techs from my work were thinking that the combined 105 degree air plus more engine heat from higher power plus the higher compression was just to much for the stock rods. Although they said there is no way to be sure until I tear into the motor.

I'm hoping the cams are okay. I'd be surprised if they were damaged. Pistons may or may not be okay. Although they are probably scratched due to the exploding rod.

If cams are okay I will probably just use those in the track engine and keep the engine with the pistons for the street. I'm afraid to combine them again and blow another motor. I will know more once I open the motor up.

Anyways hoping someone here has a running motor I can snag.
Old Sep 23, 2014 | 10:01 PM
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She dynoed at 121 rwhp the day before she popped which seems pretty good. Indicating that the build was proper. Big end is still attached to crank so the bolts didn't let go.
Old Sep 23, 2014 | 10:03 PM
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And no crash. It let go right after a sweeper before the straight. Soaked my rear wheel in oil though
Old Sep 23, 2014 | 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jscobey
She dynoed at 121 rwhp the day before she popped which seems pretty good. Indicating that the build was proper. Big end is still attached to crank so the bolts didn't let go.
Sorry she blew chunks Scoobs. Sucks putting all that work into something only to have it turn into a cool table stand.

Just because it dyno'd 121rwhp, does not indicate the build was proper.

Was this the engine you put the high comp pistons in with the controversial method? Just asking is all. No need to defend the method.
Old Sep 23, 2014 | 11:09 PM
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Your right Crux. I just meant that if she dynoed at 80 HP it would be obvious there was something wrong. I'm hoping the cams are okay and re usable. Yes the pistons were put in using that method. I will say the other engine is running strong using the same method. That's not to say that I didn't screw up this time. I put close to 500 miles on this engine before she blew. All rpms in all gears.
Old Sep 23, 2014 | 11:51 PM
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When are you tearing into the engine? It would be really neat to know what happened to create your new furniture.
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 01:58 AM
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Aww thats rough. Glad you rode it out and are ok.
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 02:50 AM
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That's not good. Glad to hear your OK though as that could have gone horribly wrong for yourself.

I'm guessing there was either too much Dynamic Compression and/or Detonation from too much Advance. The cams would have been a step too far and pushed it over the edge.

Where the cams Degreed in or just thrown in with the standard markings. Also you have the +4 Advancer which don't help along with high comps and cams. If anything you want start retarding a few degrees by that stage. It's the extreme pressure and downward forces on a rising piston that puts pressure on rods.

(:-})
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 04:42 AM
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Again, drop Roger a line....... VTRs are prone to snapping rods (even stock engines) under very specific conditions (I just forget what those are, I read about it a few years back).

FWIW, Roger's builds (some putting out over 150 bhp) used stock rods (albeit polished IIRC) so I seriously doubt the problem was from too high compression and all the other boogeymen being put forth......
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mikstr
... VTRs are prone to snapping rods (even stock engines) under very specific conditions...
...gulp....This sounds like something we'd all want to understand better!!

Jscobey if you learn these conditions please post the details. Sorry your motor went like that but glad you were not injured.
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 08:06 PM
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seek and ye shall find:
Snapping conrods?? | OZFireStorm
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mikstr
seek and ye shall find:
Snapping conrods?? | OZFireStorm


So its hard overrun. Must remember that for my next track day.
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 08:22 PM
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hard overrun followed by snapping the throttle open......
Old Sep 24, 2014 | 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mikstr
hard overrun followed by snapping the throttle open......

With my FIL mod that would lead to highsides......


So wont be doing that.
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 02:56 AM
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She it Scobey,

Sorry to hear that.

Please post pics and your idea of what happened when you tear into the motor.

I am worried because I have reduced my reciprocal mass considerably and my bike spins up really quickly.

I did have my rods shot peened and polished when I did the engine work.

Maybe I need to remove the 4 degree advancer to lessen the load on the rods.

I am still running standard cams though so maybe I am safe.

Let us know how you get on.

At least you are O.K!
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 05:09 AM
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it seems like rodgate over here everybody is all scared now
i am to...... never gonna ride it above 45 again..... but seriously
what happened to the hawk being bullet proof and could rack more then 100 thousend miles trouble free.

edit : jscobey i would **** my pants if i where on your bike or the guy behind you when it happened glad your fine
hoping you can save some parts at least

Last edited by RoadManiac; Sep 25, 2014 at 05:11 AM.
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mikstr
seek and ye shall find:
Snapping conrods?? | OZFireStorm
Its funny cuz thats exactly what happened. Coming off a second gear corner engine braking, then snapping the throttle open and bang
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 09:12 AM
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I'm sorry to hear about the failure! My first question is: did you advance the ignition? Doing so, with high-compression pistons can lead to detonation from the cylinder pressure exceding the autoignition pressure. The maximum cylinder pressure needs to occur a few degrees after top-center, so the piston is moving down, not up. Advancing the timing is not recommended with high compression pistons, unless it is done methodically. I made this same mistake, but didn't break a rod.

I read the comments regarding conrod failure that mikstr posted. I think the thing to understand is that when the piston is at top center the piston acceleration is at it's maximum, which equates to maximum tension in the rod. When you open the throttle, the piston starts to push on the rod during the power stroke. This should decrease the peak rod tension. But when the rod is stretched, the compression ratio increases.

So if you have advanced the ignition timing, my guess is that you had a detonation, when you opened the throttle.,

Last edited by RCVTR; Sep 25, 2014 at 09:14 AM.
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 12:18 PM
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That was the point I was trying to get across. Lightened flywheels IMO also have an effect on this. I'm thinking with it being lightened the crank and therefore the piston, travel faster which puts the piston at a different point within the cylinder when the plug fires. This would mean that the crank/conrod/piston will all be at a different point when max peak pressure is reached hopefully ATDC when the rod and crank is ready take the pressure that forces the piston back down on the power stroke. So lightening the flywheel in affect also kinda advances things maybe. :think

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Lightened flywheels, advancers etc IMO dont have as much of a critical effect on a standard compression engine as there is more room for error. As soon as high comps are added it's getting onto another level. Yeh I know they are not that high by modern standards but it still has an effect on the ignition timing. Advancers ignite the charge sooner (direct affect on ignition timing) Lightened flywheels changes the position of the piston within the bore (indirect effect on ignition timing) So with the piston travelling faster and charge igniting sooner, wouldn't the burn/point of ignition be closer to the crown/rings. Then at what point and where's the piston when max peak pressure is reached. Then there's the extra heat that is created from higher compression. This effects the burn rate and possibly causes some pre-ignition. Add cams and your then stepping up another gear and starting to mess with the valve timing, possibly adding even more pressure, larger volume to compress into the equation. It all adds up.

I'm waffling on a bit here, kinda thinking out aloud, but do you see where I'm coming from. It's all well and good throwing parts at an engine but all these parts have a cause and effect and have to work together equally as a team. The relationship between ignition timing and valve timing along with the dynamic compression ratio often gets overlooked, especially once bigger cams are added.

Compression ratios explained - Workshop - Visordown

I'm not saying the conrod is not at fault, it seems there is a weak point there and in a tuned engine under more compression and pressures maybe becomes more critical.

LOL I just had a vision of Roger going through all this when they where building Yeti's stage 3. Finding out what works and what doesn't and how they could improve on things (I wish he would write an autobiography) I wonder how many engines where blown on the path to building it. I bet he has all the answers but it wont be easy or cheap. Next you will be sticking some carrilo rods in. :grin As T.Mon says "it's an upgrade opportunity" Sorry just trying to be a bit light-hearted towards it and find a logical reason why this has happened. You must be gutted mate.

It will be interesting to see what you find when you break the engine down. I'm hoping you can salvage a fair bit and there are some tell tale signs as to what exactly caused it.

(:-})
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 12:30 PM
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+1 on that!
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 01:59 PM
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Sorry for your loss Scobey, hope you give her a proper burial.
Old Sep 25, 2014 | 02:28 PM
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No ignition advance or anything like that. It did have a lightened flywheel. Obviously there are many factors at play. The thing is that a lot of the bikes I've seen with pistons and cams arnt really having their necks rung out on the track. I mean I was between 7 and 9500 rpm the whole ttime. Ran like a champ up until that point tho. I couldn't stop smiling.

I want to start tearing into it but will wait until I have another motor before I do. That way I can swap the flywheel and cams if they are okay over to the new motor. I'm not having much luck finding a motor. And I'm hesitant to buy a motor on ebay. Some of them have high millage and other don't even garuntee it runs so I don't wanna shell out $800 and another $250 to ship it if I can't hear it running first. Hopefully soon I'll find a wrecked bike local that runs well and just pull the motor from that.
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