View Poll Results: Cast your vote
McCain



64
47.06%
Obama



41
30.15%
Mickey Mouse



11
8.09%
Have a lotto for one day as the president



6
4.41%
Nobody



14
10.29%
Voters: 136. You may not vote on this poll
Who will be the next president?
Damn straight! I don't always pick winners either. It's the man best for the job and has been since my grandfather moved to Texarkana. He moved the family there to keep brothers from fighting on opposite sides of the civil war. My Dad (decorated) was a marksman and engineer with the first engineer's team to make it to the top of hill in Normandy. I spent fourteen years in weapons developement because I couldn't go to Nam. You can't always pick the winners but you can always pick your fight.
As mentioned, I feel blessed that in my small way I have a say with a vote come Nov.. There are to many arguments for or against the current crop of contenders and being an independant myself, I am conflicted as hell with the choice. That said, I am more that happy to put an end to the current adminstration and start with something new. Be it McCain or Obama, it not W. and things can only look up from here.
Oh yeah and to bundleofgrundel's point.....*****, phew yeah, back to normal
Oh yeah and to bundleofgrundel's point.....*****, phew yeah, back to normal
You're not supposed to call it "Global Warming" anymore. You're supposed to call it "Climate Change".
This decision was made a few years ago, right about the time "enviromentalists" realized that actually the globe isn't warming anymore, it's cooling.
It's harder to hustle tax dollars, create massive federal programs and dictate how people should live based on "global warming" when the globe ain't warming.
If you call it "climate change", you can hustle it whether it's getting warmer of cooler.
This decision was made a few years ago, right about the time "enviromentalists" realized that actually the globe isn't warming anymore, it's cooling.
It's harder to hustle tax dollars, create massive federal programs and dictate how people should live based on "global warming" when the globe ain't warming.
If you call it "climate change", you can hustle it whether it's getting warmer of cooler.
I think it's at the point where politics=fashion to the majority of folks. It's not 'cool' to think this, or not ' sexy' to think that, and that **** actually takes hold...
The main thing I wanted to see was the IRS be disbanded, but don't think that's gonna happen. Taxes and government dependence are my biggest gripes. I can't even really look at my pay stub or I have a hizzy for a ****** week. It trips me out that we used to lynch ******* and kill them for a 2% tax increase, but now it's cool with everyone that we probably lose over 50% of our total personal income (read: 'exchange', because personal exchange of services for pay is not 'income' - read 'building wealth", therefore SHOULDNT BE TAXED....but, anyway....) to taxes. (State, tax, fed tax, tax on food, tires, gas, taxes on the tax, medical, if you sneeze on a tuesday while its raining, etc.)...thank God we have fostered such dependence on mama and papa gubment, as it is such a joy to pay for.
Just blows my mind that WE WHO WORK work for ~55-60 hours a week (or more) and the ******* that sit on their *** with their hands out drive nicer cars than me, have better bling, and a bigger grip of cheddar to floss. And what really gets me is the more you work (such as overtime) the MORE they tax you....they PUNISH you for working!?!?!
I wish that it was socially acceptable to say, "Ok, you want to have bastard kids, and treat the government as a parent, make us put food on your table and clothes on your backs....we are going to chemically castrate you / tie your tubes. If the government is being treated as a mealticket, think of this as a spanking. bad kid. get a ******* job, youre healthy enough to work - youre cut off in 2 weeks." As it stands now, this whole process is cyclical and self perpetuating. The kids see that mom is fine, and dad is fine (though I doubt they live together / and maybe the kid does or does not know his dad), and they dont work, so "I want my free money, too!" This crap makes me so mad because I regualarly get into foot-chases with 20 year old dope dealers/scumbags who are "disabled" or "get a check" because of (insert bullshit reason here_______). They think it is hilarious that they hustle the system and dont have to work. If you work, youre a sucker. Sorry I should have put this in a 'rant' section, but I need to stop....I could type for days this **** pisses me off so much. Im getting pissed as I type it. I'm just so sad that we as Americans couldn't have the "Fat and Happy" without becoming a nation of whining pussies that feel a birthright of entitlement. Get back to the Constitution. Get back to God. Yes, God. Not ******* Allah, and not ******* Krotax The Wolf God of the Congo. If you dont like it, drink a warm glass of shut the **** up, because nobody is forcing you to practice anything. Worship Krotax til youre blue in the face, but thats not what this country was founded on. Get over it. and.....Nobody owes you ****. It's quite the opposite...YOU have a duty to provide for yourself, and if you choose to have one, your family. And, there are consequences in life. If youre lazy, chances are.....life will suck for you. Grow a ******* spine, the government isn't here to give you a check for existing. All you do is produce spawn, sit on your *** and breathe all my ******* air.
**** the WELFARE trash, **** the socialists, **** the commies, **** carbon footprints, **** barn owls, and **** all of the liberals that are destroying this country. "caring" is not "doing", and everytime you ***** "care" about something, it gets expensive to those who work. And also **** everyone who hates rich people. Unless they made their fortune doing something particularly loathesome, you're just jealous.
In short: There's some random farmer living in Iowa that could do a much better job than either of these clowns- he just has too much sense to want the job. I'm of the opinion that we are going to have to have a revolution to change anything, and it scares the **** out of me. We are too far gone, I fear. Get some of these bastards swinging from telephone poles and clean this corrupt system up....some more Sons of Liberty action, revisited.
As always, my vote goes to Vinnie Stigma, and I want him added to the poll.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONDccArUA54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XewuYtc9TTc
The main thing I wanted to see was the IRS be disbanded, but don't think that's gonna happen. Taxes and government dependence are my biggest gripes. I can't even really look at my pay stub or I have a hizzy for a ****** week. It trips me out that we used to lynch ******* and kill them for a 2% tax increase, but now it's cool with everyone that we probably lose over 50% of our total personal income (read: 'exchange', because personal exchange of services for pay is not 'income' - read 'building wealth", therefore SHOULDNT BE TAXED....but, anyway....) to taxes. (State, tax, fed tax, tax on food, tires, gas, taxes on the tax, medical, if you sneeze on a tuesday while its raining, etc.)...thank God we have fostered such dependence on mama and papa gubment, as it is such a joy to pay for.
Just blows my mind that WE WHO WORK work for ~55-60 hours a week (or more) and the ******* that sit on their *** with their hands out drive nicer cars than me, have better bling, and a bigger grip of cheddar to floss. And what really gets me is the more you work (such as overtime) the MORE they tax you....they PUNISH you for working!?!?!
I wish that it was socially acceptable to say, "Ok, you want to have bastard kids, and treat the government as a parent, make us put food on your table and clothes on your backs....we are going to chemically castrate you / tie your tubes. If the government is being treated as a mealticket, think of this as a spanking. bad kid. get a ******* job, youre healthy enough to work - youre cut off in 2 weeks." As it stands now, this whole process is cyclical and self perpetuating. The kids see that mom is fine, and dad is fine (though I doubt they live together / and maybe the kid does or does not know his dad), and they dont work, so "I want my free money, too!" This crap makes me so mad because I regualarly get into foot-chases with 20 year old dope dealers/scumbags who are "disabled" or "get a check" because of (insert bullshit reason here_______). They think it is hilarious that they hustle the system and dont have to work. If you work, youre a sucker. Sorry I should have put this in a 'rant' section, but I need to stop....I could type for days this **** pisses me off so much. Im getting pissed as I type it. I'm just so sad that we as Americans couldn't have the "Fat and Happy" without becoming a nation of whining pussies that feel a birthright of entitlement. Get back to the Constitution. Get back to God. Yes, God. Not ******* Allah, and not ******* Krotax The Wolf God of the Congo. If you dont like it, drink a warm glass of shut the **** up, because nobody is forcing you to practice anything. Worship Krotax til youre blue in the face, but thats not what this country was founded on. Get over it. and.....Nobody owes you ****. It's quite the opposite...YOU have a duty to provide for yourself, and if you choose to have one, your family. And, there are consequences in life. If youre lazy, chances are.....life will suck for you. Grow a ******* spine, the government isn't here to give you a check for existing. All you do is produce spawn, sit on your *** and breathe all my ******* air.
**** the WELFARE trash, **** the socialists, **** the commies, **** carbon footprints, **** barn owls, and **** all of the liberals that are destroying this country. "caring" is not "doing", and everytime you ***** "care" about something, it gets expensive to those who work. And also **** everyone who hates rich people. Unless they made their fortune doing something particularly loathesome, you're just jealous.
In short: There's some random farmer living in Iowa that could do a much better job than either of these clowns- he just has too much sense to want the job. I'm of the opinion that we are going to have to have a revolution to change anything, and it scares the **** out of me. We are too far gone, I fear. Get some of these bastards swinging from telephone poles and clean this corrupt system up....some more Sons of Liberty action, revisited.
As always, my vote goes to Vinnie Stigma, and I want him added to the poll.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONDccArUA54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XewuYtc9TTc
Last edited by Condor; Sep 15, 2008 at 11:32 PM.
Mr. Condor, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Mr. Condor, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Bullshit. I agree with almost everything in you're previous post. Except the part about ******* any barn owls.
But seriously, we have got a bad problem being held hostage by the tyranny of the minority in this country. normal people are being forced to the fringe and made to feel like they have to be apologetic for how they live their lives because they own an SUV or like to eat meat, or WHATEVER it is that normal people do. **** that.
Last edited by Condor; Sep 16, 2008 at 06:50 AM.
Your too right about caring not turning into action. I agree with you on a multitude of points except anything having to do with faith in a God. We all need to act and take responsibility for our actions without faith of any kind. I don't care if or who you worship but it should have nothing to do with anyone else except those that share your faith.
Last edited by Moto Man; Sep 16, 2008 at 10:11 AM.
I had an interesting conversation with a Socialist minded gal the other day. You see I work in non profit, and I see who all works in non profits. I am Libertarian minded (not a member of the party though).
Anyways, she was surprised that her republican mom helped at charities so much when the truth is that most of those who work in the trenches, actually helping people and taking lower pay to do so are Republicans.. Why? Because Republicans think: "It is MY responsibility to help where I see a problem." but Democrats think: "It is the Government's job to take money from the rich to fix that problem"
That just sickens me. If you see a problem that you believe needs fixing and you do nothing about it, because it's "Government's job" or for any other reason, you helped make that problem worse.
There was an interview with some Galveston citizens this AM on NPR of all stations, a post "Ike" thing and while not as bad of a storm as "Katrina" their reaction to the situation gave me hope for this country. Where as the citizens of New Orleans were crying for hand outs, these people were saying let me get back there and fix my own ****, we ain't children and don't treat us that way. God bless Texas, though I don't want to live there myself, AZ is hot enough without the humidity.
Anyways, she was surprised that her republican mom helped at charities so much when the truth is that most of those who work in the trenches, actually helping people and taking lower pay to do so are Republicans.. Why? Because Republicans think: "It is MY responsibility to help where I see a problem." but Democrats think: "It is the Government's job to take money from the rich to fix that problem"
That just sickens me. If you see a problem that you believe needs fixing and you do nothing about it, because it's "Government's job" or for any other reason, you helped make that problem worse.
There was an interview with some Galveston citizens this AM on NPR of all stations, a post "Ike" thing and while not as bad of a storm as "Katrina" their reaction to the situation gave me hope for this country. Where as the citizens of New Orleans were crying for hand outs, these people were saying let me get back there and fix my own ****, we ain't children and don't treat us that way. God bless Texas, though I don't want to live there myself, AZ is hot enough without the humidity.
I like these kinds of threads, but posting a pic that can be found on Craigslist over and over? With that particular pic, it's kinda of like broadcasting your own ignorance. I mean seriously, noone posted a pic of you smiling next to your first car and called you a "cager" on this here motorcycle forum.
I love living in a country where we do have this decision we CAN make. The point I think is: Go out and use your freedom. Make a decision! I know I will.
Right after I go on a nice ride
I love living in a country where we do have this decision we CAN make. The point I think is: Go out and use your freedom. Make a decision! I know I will.
Right after I go on a nice ride
Izan, I meant:
· The Iraq war
· Deficit spending
· The sub prime melt down
· The K street project
· The suspension of habeas corpus
· The wire tap telecom over reach
· No energy policy
· No effort on Global warming
· The Tax cut con
· The world view of the U.S.
· Katrina
· Taking the eye off the ball in Afghanistan
· The Federal judicial firings
I could go on and on….
· The Iraq war
· Deficit spending
· The sub prime melt down
· The K street project
· The suspension of habeas corpus
· The wire tap telecom over reach
· No energy policy
· No effort on Global warming
· The Tax cut con
· The world view of the U.S.
· Katrina
· Taking the eye off the ball in Afghanistan
· The Federal judicial firings
I could go on and on….
NOBAMA!!
I will support Obama because we can't afford 4 more years of Republican politics. The Bush crime family have torn down virtually everything that was right with America.
The conservatives have their heads so far up their asses they can't see that McCain is
full of lies and has brought on a political neofite with none of the skills necessary to be in office. But if you are fine with our loss of liberties, the economy, the war, world opinion of America, the continued destruction of the middle class then vote for McCain because under his administration, nothing will change.
The conservatives have their heads so far up their asses they can't see that McCain is
full of lies and has brought on a political neofite with none of the skills necessary to be in office. But if you are fine with our loss of liberties, the economy, the war, world opinion of America, the continued destruction of the middle class then vote for McCain because under his administration, nothing will change.
Man....what a drag of a thread. Kinda like an intelligence nudist colony....with lots of ignorance exposed.
I'm gonna go for a ride and pretend the majority of people are smart enough to research the facts for themselves and not buy the bullshit at face value that both sides are throwing across the TV.
At least we all agree on our rides!
I'm gonna go for a ride and pretend the majority of people are smart enough to research the facts for themselves and not buy the bullshit at face value that both sides are throwing across the TV.
At least we all agree on our rides!
I will support Obama because we can't afford 4 more years of Republican politics. The Bush crime family have torn down virtually everything that was right with America.
The conservatives have their heads so far up their asses they can't see that McCain is
full of lies and has brought on a political neofite with none of the skills necessary to be in office. But if you are fine with our loss of liberties, the economy, the war, world opinion of America, the continued destruction of the middle class then vote for McCain because under his administration, nothing will change.
The conservatives have their heads so far up their asses they can't see that McCain is
full of lies and has brought on a political neofite with none of the skills necessary to be in office. But if you are fine with our loss of liberties, the economy, the war, world opinion of America, the continued destruction of the middle class then vote for McCain because under his administration, nothing will change.
Civil liberties? 98% of Senate Democrats voted for the "Patriot Act".
There is virtually nothing in the Patriot Act which was not in the "anti-terrorism" legislation which Bill Clinton tried, and failed to ram through Congress in the '90s. He was defeated by libertarian leaning Republicans like Dick Armey and Bob Barr.
Palin is no more of a neophyte than Obama, but at least she's the understudy, not the Pres. candidate.
The two things most damaging to the working/middle class are;
1) so called "free trade" with China, which was signed into law by Bill Clinton (he also signed NAFTA) and continues to be supported by most Dems, including Obama.
2) Massive third world cheap labor immigration (legal and illegal) which is championed by Obama.
Obama's message to illegal aliens? "Si se puede!"
Obama's message to American workers? "Learn Spanish."
One of the civil liberties protected by the Bill of Rights is "The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
Barak Obama?-- "I don't think people should be allowed to own guns."
On many of the issues I care about McCain sucks as well. I won't vote for him.
If you actually do care about preserving personal liberty, consider voting for the Libertarian Bob Barr.
Obama isn't a civil libertarian, he's a Marxist.
How about this. Which party do you think would be more likely to pass legislation limiting horsepower on motorcycles to protect us from ourselves.
I will quote Dennis Bell's letter in "American Motorcyclist", the AMA's magazine. October 2008.
"I have been involved with motorcycles, motorsports and racing for more than 30 years, so it was no surprise when I received the August issue to read of the latest crop of legislative proposals designed to regulate and place further restrictions on our beloved sport."
"This November, we all have the opportunity to determine who makes the rules. Take some time to check out what candidates have been friendly to our sport, how they have voted on issues that pertain to us and what organizations they are aligned with. Ultimately, these are the people who will determine the future of motorcycling."
"When I go into the voting booth, I always pull the lever with my right hand, the same one I use to twist the throttle."
I will quote Dennis Bell's letter in "American Motorcyclist", the AMA's magazine. October 2008.
"I have been involved with motorcycles, motorsports and racing for more than 30 years, so it was no surprise when I received the August issue to read of the latest crop of legislative proposals designed to regulate and place further restrictions on our beloved sport."
"This November, we all have the opportunity to determine who makes the rules. Take some time to check out what candidates have been friendly to our sport, how they have voted on issues that pertain to us and what organizations they are aligned with. Ultimately, these are the people who will determine the future of motorcycling."
"When I go into the voting booth, I always pull the lever with my right hand, the same one I use to twist the throttle."
How about this. Which party do you think would be more likely to pass legislation limiting horsepower on motorcycles to protect us from ourselves.
I will quote Dennis Bell's letter in "American Motorcyclist", the AMA's magazine. October 2008.
"I have been involved with motorcycles, motorsports and racing for more than 30 years, so it was no surprise when I received the August issue to read of the latest crop of legislative proposals designed to regulate and place further restrictions on our beloved sport."
"This November, we all have the opportunity to determine who makes the rules. Take some time to check out what candidates have been friendly to our sport, how they have voted on issues that pertain to us and what organizations they are aligned with. Ultimately, these are the people who will determine the future of motorcycling."
"When I go into the voting booth, I always pull the lever with my right hand, the same one I use to twist the throttle."
I will quote Dennis Bell's letter in "American Motorcyclist", the AMA's magazine. October 2008.
"I have been involved with motorcycles, motorsports and racing for more than 30 years, so it was no surprise when I received the August issue to read of the latest crop of legislative proposals designed to regulate and place further restrictions on our beloved sport."
"This November, we all have the opportunity to determine who makes the rules. Take some time to check out what candidates have been friendly to our sport, how they have voted on issues that pertain to us and what organizations they are aligned with. Ultimately, these are the people who will determine the future of motorcycling."
"When I go into the voting booth, I always pull the lever with my right hand, the same one I use to twist the throttle."
Does the AMA do this?
Telling riders to take some time to check out candidates themselves is a nice thought, but 99% of them won't and probably wouldn't even know how.
Yeah this guy is dizzy. National health care??? For whom? Obama-nation is an abomination. This guy really verges on the "dumb ni--er edge. While you were out - the nation is in crisis. Put this ******* in a 55 lb kit and parade his *** around Irag for a couple days = see what's left. It won't be pretty.
The National Rifle Assoc. rates all candidates for state and federal office and informs its members about them.
Does the AMA do this?
Telling riders to take some time to check out candidates themselves is a nice thought, but 99% of them won't and probably wouldn't even know how.
Does the AMA do this?
Telling riders to take some time to check out candidates themselves is a nice thought, but 99% of them won't and probably wouldn't even know how.
It's well known that the Democrats are the ones who push the "Nanny Legislation" which takes away "personal responsibility" and replaces it with restrictive laws.
The ACLU, which denies personal responsibility on a regular basis is certainly not supporting McCain.
This was not the AMA's position, it was a letter from a member who is concerned about possible future legislation that may affect our sport.
It's well known that the Democrats are the ones who push the "Nanny Legislation" which takes away "personal responsibility" and replaces it with restrictive laws.
The ACLU, which denies personal responsibility on a regular basis is certainly not supporting McCain.
It's well known that the Democrats are the ones who push the "Nanny Legislation" which takes away "personal responsibility" and replaces it with restrictive laws.
The ACLU, which denies personal responsibility on a regular basis is certainly not supporting McCain.
VTRsurfer;
I understood that you were quoting a letter, but my point was if the AMA doesn't take a position on riders' rights, and doesn't tell its members which politicians support or oppose those rights, what good is it?
I agree that in the vast majority of cases, it is nanny state Democrats who most threaten liberty, but there are exceptions, and it is important to know what they are.
The only legislation ever introduced in Congress to limit the power of sport bikes, which he called "murdercycles", was sponsored by Senator John Danforth, an Indiana Republican.
Last edited by RK1; Sep 16, 2008 at 11:10 PM.
http://www.slate.com/id/2200209/#ilwmccain
Outrage at McCain--a loser strategy. - By Mickey Kaus - Slate Magazine
Outrage at McCain--a loser strategy. - By Mickey Kaus - Slate Magazine
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/flor...ry/687993.html
McCain courts Fla. Hispanics - 09/16/2008 - MiamiHerald.com
McCain brags to Florida Hispanics that he is more dedicated to illegal alien amnesty and is more likely to deliver it than Obama is.
McCain courts Fla. Hispanics - 09/16/2008 - MiamiHerald.com
McCain brags to Florida Hispanics that he is more dedicated to illegal alien amnesty and is more likely to deliver it than Obama is.
Gun Owners of America (a real gun rights group) gave McCain an F- in 2004 and 2006.
He receives funding from ultra liberal, ultra rich elitists George Soros and Teresa Heinz-Kerry.
He nearly switched to the Democrat party in 2001.
He tried to get John Kerry to pick him as his VP running mate in 2004.
He was a member of the Keating Five who were involved in the S&L scandal and scam in the 1980's. McCain took money in exchange for hampering a federal regulatory agency's investigation into improprieties by Charles Keating, chairman of Lincoln Savings and Loan.
He's a member of the world government promoting, national sovereignty undermining Council on Foreign Relations (just like Michelle Obama).
He teamed up with Russ Feingold to give us the 1st Amendment destroying "campaign finance reform" (also known sarcastically as the Incumbent Protection Act) which limits free speech and criticism of political candidates.
This is in addition to his tireless efforts to undermine our national laws and grant amnesty (and give all kinds of benefits to) to people in the US illegally.
He's not a real conservative, nor is he a constitutionalist. He believes in bigger, more intrusive government. He believes in endless, interventionist foreign wars.
He's corrupt and he hates your freedoms.
This is all off the top of my head. I'm sure there's much, much more not to like about McCain.
Unfortunately, Obama is just as bad.
Effectively, there is no real difference between these two scumbags, and that's just how the power elite puppeteers who control these two want it.
Any of the third party or independent candidates is better than either of these two, and, yes, that includes Cynthia McKinney, who, although a liberal, has more honesty and courage in her pinky finger than either McCain or Obama do in their entire bodies.
He receives funding from ultra liberal, ultra rich elitists George Soros and Teresa Heinz-Kerry.
He nearly switched to the Democrat party in 2001.
He tried to get John Kerry to pick him as his VP running mate in 2004.
He was a member of the Keating Five who were involved in the S&L scandal and scam in the 1980's. McCain took money in exchange for hampering a federal regulatory agency's investigation into improprieties by Charles Keating, chairman of Lincoln Savings and Loan.
He's a member of the world government promoting, national sovereignty undermining Council on Foreign Relations (just like Michelle Obama).
He teamed up with Russ Feingold to give us the 1st Amendment destroying "campaign finance reform" (also known sarcastically as the Incumbent Protection Act) which limits free speech and criticism of political candidates.
This is in addition to his tireless efforts to undermine our national laws and grant amnesty (and give all kinds of benefits to) to people in the US illegally.
He's not a real conservative, nor is he a constitutionalist. He believes in bigger, more intrusive government. He believes in endless, interventionist foreign wars.
He's corrupt and he hates your freedoms.
This is all off the top of my head. I'm sure there's much, much more not to like about McCain.
Unfortunately, Obama is just as bad.
Effectively, there is no real difference between these two scumbags, and that's just how the power elite puppeteers who control these two want it.
Any of the third party or independent candidates is better than either of these two, and, yes, that includes Cynthia McKinney, who, although a liberal, has more honesty and courage in her pinky finger than either McCain or Obama do in their entire bodies.
Not trying to start **** take it for its worth to you. Just posting info.
"If I were a Muslim I would let you know," Barack Obama has said
More: family and friends considered him as a child to be Muslim.
In "Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School," Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007, that
Obama's mother, divorced from Obama's father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.
Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim.
" The Times looked into the matter further and learned more about his Indonesian interlude:
His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.
The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday.
Recalling Obama's time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama "went to the mosque," and that he "was Muslim.
"
"If I were a Muslim I would let you know," Barack Obama has said
More: family and friends considered him as a child to be Muslim.
In "Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School," Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007, that
Obama's mother, divorced from Obama's father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.
Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim.
" The Times looked into the matter further and learned more about his Indonesian interlude:
His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.
The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday.
Recalling Obama's time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama "went to the mosque," and that he "was Muslim.
"
Last edited by MisfitToy; Sep 17, 2008 at 04:05 PM.

But there’s something underneath politics in the way you have to hear McCain, something riveting and unSpinnable and true. It has to do with McCain’s military background and Vietnam combat and the five-plus years he spent in a North Vietnamese prison, mostly in solitary, in a box, getting tortured and starved.
And the unbelievable honor and ***** he showed there,
It’s very easy to gloss over the POW thing, partly because we’ve heard so much about it and partly because its so off the charts dramatic, like something in a movie instead of a man’s life. But it’s worth considering for a moment, because it’s what makes McCain’s “causes greater than self-interest” line easier to hear.
You probably already know what happened. In October of ’67 McCain was himself still a Young Voter and flying his 23rd Vietnam combat mission and his A-4 Skyhawk plane got shot down over Hanoi and he had to eject, which basically means setting off an explosive charge that blows your seat out of the plane, which ejection broke both of McCain’s arms and one leg and gave him a concussion and he started falling out of the skies over Hanoi.
Try to imagine how much this would hurt and how scared you’d be, three limbs broken and falling towards the enemy capital you just tried to bomb.
His chute opened late and he landed hard in a little lake in a park right in the middle of downtown Hanoi…
A (Vietnamese) crowd pulled him out and just about killed him…
McCain got bayoneted in the groin; a soldier broke his shoulder apart with a rifle butt. Plus by this time his right knee was bent 90 degrees to the side with the bone sticking out. Try to imagine this.
He finally got tossed in a jeep and taken to the infamous Hoa Lo Prison where they made him beg for a week for a doctor and finally set a couple of the fractures without anesthetic and let two other fractures and the groin wound (imagine: groin wound) stay like they were.
Then they threw him in a cell.
Try for a moment to feel this…
Think about how diametrically opposed to your own self-interest getting knifed in the ***** and having fractures set without pain killers would be, and then about getting thrown in a cell to just lie there and hurt, which is what happened.
He was delirious with pain for weeks, and his weight dropped to 100 pounds, and the other POWs were sure he would die; and then after a few months like that after his bones mostly knitted and he could sort of stand up they brought him in to the prison commandant’s office and offered to let him go.
This is true. They said he could just leave. They had found out that McCain’s father was one of the top-ranking naval officers in the U.S. Armed Forces, and the North Vietnamese wanted the PR coup of mercifully releasing his son, the baby-killer. McCain, 100 pounds and barely able to stand, refused.
The U.S. military’s Code of Conduct for Prisoner’s of War apparently said that POWs had to be released in the order that they were captured, and there were others who’d been in Hoa Lo a long time, and McCain refused to violate the Code.
The commandant, not please, right there in the office had guards break his ribs, rebreak his arm, knock his teeth out. McCain still refused to leave without the other POWs.
And so then he spent four more years in Hoa Lo like this, much of the time in solitary, in the dark, in a closet-sized box called a “punishment-cell”.
Try to imagine the moment that moment between getting offered early release and turning it down. Try to imagine it was you. Imagine how loudly your most basic, primal self-interest would have cried out to you in that moment, and all the ways you could rationalize accepting the offer. Can you hear it? You simply can’t know for sure. None of us can. It’s hard to even imagine the pain and fear in that moment, much less know how you’d react.
But, see, we do know how this man reacted. That he chose to spend four more years there, in a dark box, alone, tapping code on the walls to the others, rather than violate a Code. Maybe he was nuts.
But the point is that with McCain we know, for a proven fact, that he’s capable of devotion to something other, more than his own self-interest. So that when he says the line in speeches you can feel like maybe it isn’t just more candidate bullshit, that with this guy it’s maybe the truth. Or maybe both the truth and bullshit; the guy does want your vote after all.
But that moment in the Hoa Lo office in ’68 – right before he refused, with all his basic normal human self-interest howling at him – that moment is hard to blow off.
The fact is that John McCain is a genuine hero of the only kind that Vietnam now has to offer, a hero not because of what he did but because of what he suffered – voluntarily, for a Code. This gives him the moral authority both to utter lines about causes beyond self-interest and to expect us, even in this age of Spin and lawyerly cunning, to believe he means them.
I respect McCain for his service but the beating he took in the past is sure to have left him with deep mental scars and hate that could surface under pressure. He's damaged goods that should not be in a hot seat of the presidency. I still think he's a stand up kick *** dude though.


