Concealed carry: What for?
10-31-2011, 02:58 AM
#31
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Well, it's fairly simple... My property my rules, is the basic principle... The second principle that applies is "justified force", ie if there is risk to me or other parts of my family, and I shot the guy in the leg/arm or similar and call the police and ambulance, it's usually OK...
If I where to however kill the guy with a single shot to the head, it's probably going to be problems... And no, I'm not talking about "execution"... But a hunting rifle with a scope is fairly accurate from a few rooms away...
That doesn't change the fact that it's commonly a deadly error for the burglar to break into an armed Swede's home... A hunting rifle kills people just as easy as deer...
If I where to however kill the guy with a single shot to the head, it's probably going to be problems... And no, I'm not talking about "execution"... But a hunting rifle with a scope is fairly accurate from a few rooms away...
That doesn't change the fact that it's commonly a deadly error for the burglar to break into an armed Swede's home... A hunting rifle kills people just as easy as deer...
10-31-2011, 03:02 AM
#32
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And Tweety, I suggest before you go around calling people names you should perhaps try to get a more comprehensive grasp on the other persons position. I am quite familiar with Canadian law regarding firearms; my dad was nearly arrested on a family trip because his pistol was in our car and he forgot to remove it. After than I became very familiar with any situation in which I might need to know the local gun laws. This new law in arizona about being able to conceal without a permit is news to me though.
10-31-2011, 03:30 AM
#33
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You have a point tweety, but here's mine:
What happens when you walk out of the supermarket and a criminal mugs you? In Canada you have no weapon. Where I live I have to explain why the would be mugger has 15 holes in him. Also I'm not talking about Sweden, I'm referring to Canada and/or England. I know Sweden is the most well armed country per capita. But the point it is doesn't matter how many guns you have it you don't have one on your person when it matters. THATS the point of concealed carry.
What happens when you walk out of the supermarket and a criminal mugs you? In Canada you have no weapon. Where I live I have to explain why the would be mugger has 15 holes in him. Also I'm not talking about Sweden, I'm referring to Canada and/or England. I know Sweden is the most well armed country per capita. But the point it is doesn't matter how many guns you have it you don't have one on your person when it matters. THATS the point of concealed carry.
One, in the US it's very likely that the mugger is armed with a gun... In Sweden, it's highly unlikely that he has a gun... At the most he's got a knife...
Two, the general crime rate in Sweden is as an average lower than the US, even taking into account the wide range of different crime rates you have for different areas...
Three, even though Sweden is in terms of firearms well armed, the ratio of guns vs rifles is on a whole other scale than in the US... The reason a mugger/burglar is very unlikely to have a gun is simply because it's a high value item, there aren't many around, and the career criminals that go after banks/armed transports or whatever pay better than the strung out junkies muggin people in back alleys...
The reason for all of this, is the difference in laws... A lot Americans oppose "regulation" of firearms, but I have yet to talk to anyone that can defend that with logical reasoning and not emotion...
In Sweden, it's very easy to get permission to own a hunting rifle, since a large part of the population infact uses them for hunting... That includes almost all single action rifles and shotguns, but not any weapon capable of firing any kind of auto or semi-auto fire... If you want a handgun, the rules are infinitely more strict, and as result, there aren't many around... And that obviously translates over to the criminal world... Since the weapons they use are stolen, if there are less handguns or assault weapons to steal, they have access to less handguns and assault weapons...
And this is a direct result of regulation, in my view a successful one... Regulation doesn't mean I can't own guns, it means I'm by law required to have a license for each weapon, it's serial is registered, and I'm required to store them either in a locked gun rack/safe or similar, or disassemble the weapon and lock up parts like the firing bolt if none of the above is available... If they are stolen, and I haven't reported it, I become liable...
It means I can't sell them without registering the sale, so the new owner takes over responsibility of the weapon...
It also means that if I'm on heavy medication, or in other ways incapacitated, like if I have a serious mental health issue, my licence is temporarily revoked, and I get to hand over my guns... Obviously, once the issue is resolved, the licence is once again valid...
Some here said that the only result of regulation is to keep the criminals and police safe from the law abiding citizens... That's a pretty narrow minded statement... If you put a big pile of guns in front of a group of people, some of which are "citizens", "criminals" or "cops", and apply that, yes it's true... If you however take away all guns, it's not true...
Since that's utopia, it doesn't work, but by greatly reducing the amount of available guns and ammunition to the criminals you get less gun related crimes... It's a fact not even the most pro gun person can despute in a rational manner...
And before you try the "less gun crimes in 'unregulated' areas" argument, think this through... You are comparing statistics in a limited area, which is fairly saturated with guns, regardless of the level of regulation in that town or county, simply because the whole of US has easy access to handguns... Take the same figures for Sweden and compare to the US figures, and it becomes a ridiculous statement to make...
The likeliness of dumbass X to go rob the supermarket or mug people outside armed with a hunting rifle is pretty low, since he'd be surrounded by police in no time... While his american cousine Y, can blend in with a handgun under his coat and get away... In Sweden homes are armed, not people on the street... As a result, neither are the criminals, unless they are intent on butting horns with armed guards or the police... And then, usually people around can see them coming and run the other way...
Now, I'm not saying our system would work in the US, mostly because of all the weapons already floating around, but common sense says you need to stop fighting "regulation" as a mythical being, and find an acceptable middle ground, where you stop the flow of guns to criminal hands, and put them in responsible hands... That is unless you are opposed to regulation based on it being a "right" for you to change sides tomorrow and go rob the supermarket?
Every right comes with a responsibility, it's simple question of balance... US gun owners/advocates as a group have been shirking their responsibility for a long time... It's time to settle the score...
10-31-2011, 03:36 AM
#34
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And Tweety, I suggest before you go around calling people names you should perhaps try to get a more comprehensive grasp on the other persons position. I am quite familiar with Canadian law regarding firearms; my dad was nearly arrested on a family trip because his pistol was in our car and he forgot to remove it. After than I became very familiar with any situation in which I might need to know the local gun laws. This new law in arizona about being able to conceal without a permit is news to me though.
10-31-2011, 07:13 AM
#37
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I suppose this is a safety measure which I can get behind as the parent of a young child but it obviously interferes with the gun owner's ability to protect himself on a moments notice. The philosophy seems to be that the gun is not a weapon for defense but for hunting and sport in the eyes of those laws.
10-31-2011, 08:45 AM
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20 yrs in a semi has taken me throughout the US and some north and south of the border. I always slept with the loaded 32 in my right hand later replaced with a 38 after it was stolen, broad daylight, Jersey City truck stop, no, the Jersey City ****-hole-war-zone they call a truck stop.
I used la pistoli several times to protect myself, twice when desperate druggies got into in my truck while i was sleeping. I carried it concealed when i had to get out of the truck at night in rest areas, truck stops, big cities, basically when felt it might be needed. Ironically, it was lying in my truck when i took a bullet to the leg outside a bar in Laurel, MS.
I could write a book about my experiences, but what i want to relay is that if you carry a loaded gun for long enough, there is an increased probability that you may do something stupid that you will regret and that could have dire consequences that are non-retractable, esp when drugs and alcohol are brought into the mix.
heres's what happened:
3am, 3 truck drivers walking from a titty bar to motel somewhere in downtown L A.
6 to 8 hrs. of beer, mezcal, and cocaine, did i mention gooood coke...3 f*cked up truckers.
car pulls up and driver asks if i needed a ride. "No thanks"
he pulls away and, in our infinite wisdom, we decide this is a queer hitting on me possibly attracted by my ***-long pony tail, or just that i was nearest his car. don't know.
the fagot circles the block, stops at the curb a second time, next to me and repeats his ride offer.
I let go with a kung fu kick that seriously caves in his door.... maybe the product of enough training in this chinese fighting style to **** something up, but not enough to acquire the discipline to use it for self defense only. rot roh!
Further prove of this lack of discipline hypothesis: Now I'm fired up and as he speeds off, i angrily verbalize to my impaired pals that i'm gonna shoot this son of a bitch if he comes around again. No doubt in my mind that this dork is asking for a bullet up his ***. You can tell i'm really on top of my game by now huh?
Anyway, this guy's not gonna quit i figure as i see him turn at the end of the block. His persistence was probably fueled by the same accelerants that brought us to the cross-the-line mind state we were in. Yeah shoot that fagot bastard.
Being the kind of person that says what he means and then has to prove it(in this case definitely not an positive thing), I reach into the truck and grab my gun.
sure enough here comes the "good buddy"(trucker talk for queer)again. At the time, somehow the gun went off boom boom boom, and by the third time, I was immediately awakened into sobriety and found myself questioning what the hell was i doing.
I just tried to kill somebody who did nothing whatsoever to harm me. OMG, WTF,JESUS CHRIST. Shock and disbelief are understatement. Fortunately, or unfortunately depending, I was not to accurate that night as he sped down the street and didn't return. The next day, I found 3 bullet holes in a new refrigerated trailer across the street.
the point of this lesson, one that remains with me: If you carry a loaded weapon, no matter if you consider yourself a normal, well-balanced, emotionally stable, and caring individual, certain circumstances could converge with a weakened ability to act rationally causing you do something that could land you in the big house for a very long time.
the irony in this case is that, had i ended up in prison, i would probably have been unable to keep my *** a one-way street. So think about that the next time you feel secure because you're packin your weapon.
I used la pistoli several times to protect myself, twice when desperate druggies got into in my truck while i was sleeping. I carried it concealed when i had to get out of the truck at night in rest areas, truck stops, big cities, basically when felt it might be needed. Ironically, it was lying in my truck when i took a bullet to the leg outside a bar in Laurel, MS.
I could write a book about my experiences, but what i want to relay is that if you carry a loaded gun for long enough, there is an increased probability that you may do something stupid that you will regret and that could have dire consequences that are non-retractable, esp when drugs and alcohol are brought into the mix.
heres's what happened:
3am, 3 truck drivers walking from a titty bar to motel somewhere in downtown L A.
6 to 8 hrs. of beer, mezcal, and cocaine, did i mention gooood coke...3 f*cked up truckers.
car pulls up and driver asks if i needed a ride. "No thanks"
he pulls away and, in our infinite wisdom, we decide this is a queer hitting on me possibly attracted by my ***-long pony tail, or just that i was nearest his car. don't know.
the fagot circles the block, stops at the curb a second time, next to me and repeats his ride offer.
I let go with a kung fu kick that seriously caves in his door.... maybe the product of enough training in this chinese fighting style to **** something up, but not enough to acquire the discipline to use it for self defense only. rot roh!
Further prove of this lack of discipline hypothesis: Now I'm fired up and as he speeds off, i angrily verbalize to my impaired pals that i'm gonna shoot this son of a bitch if he comes around again. No doubt in my mind that this dork is asking for a bullet up his ***. You can tell i'm really on top of my game by now huh?
Anyway, this guy's not gonna quit i figure as i see him turn at the end of the block. His persistence was probably fueled by the same accelerants that brought us to the cross-the-line mind state we were in. Yeah shoot that fagot bastard.
Being the kind of person that says what he means and then has to prove it(in this case definitely not an positive thing), I reach into the truck and grab my gun.
sure enough here comes the "good buddy"(trucker talk for queer)again. At the time, somehow the gun went off boom boom boom, and by the third time, I was immediately awakened into sobriety and found myself questioning what the hell was i doing.
I just tried to kill somebody who did nothing whatsoever to harm me. OMG, WTF,JESUS CHRIST. Shock and disbelief are understatement. Fortunately, or unfortunately depending, I was not to accurate that night as he sped down the street and didn't return. The next day, I found 3 bullet holes in a new refrigerated trailer across the street.
the point of this lesson, one that remains with me: If you carry a loaded weapon, no matter if you consider yourself a normal, well-balanced, emotionally stable, and caring individual, certain circumstances could converge with a weakened ability to act rationally causing you do something that could land you in the big house for a very long time.
the irony in this case is that, had i ended up in prison, i would probably have been unable to keep my *** a one-way street. So think about that the next time you feel secure because you're packin your weapon.
Last edited by nath981; 11-01-2011 at 04:28 AM.
10-31-2011, 08:46 AM
#41
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A person shot with a hollow point slug is most likely not going to die. Something like 80% survive. But he will have absorbed a lot of kinetic energy and will probably think he is goiing to die.
If I need to stop a real threat, I will be glad I'm armed. The rest of the time it doesn't hurt anyone.
I also live in a place where black bears have no real fear of humans. Break-ins are very common. If I get up to a bunch of noise and mama bear thinks I'm threatening her cub, she can be up my stairs in about 1.5 seconds. Bear attacks are at near record highs, although still somewhat rare.
If I need to stop a real threat, I will be glad I'm armed. The rest of the time it doesn't hurt anyone.
I also live in a place where black bears have no real fear of humans. Break-ins are very common. If I get up to a bunch of noise and mama bear thinks I'm threatening her cub, she can be up my stairs in about 1.5 seconds. Bear attacks are at near record highs, although still somewhat rare.
10-31-2011, 09:05 AM
#42
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Tweety I'm plainly referring to Canada in my earlier posts.... I've never been to Sweden and I have little knowledge of the laws there. And the entire point of the Second Amendment is that the government should never be able to take guns away from lawful citizens. What's to stop all the government corruption from spreading if a firearm regulation system was tightened? It's a thin line to walk and I'm not personally sure where the line should be drawn, but it needs to be somewhere.
10-31-2011, 10:08 AM
#43
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Gun rights are individual rights, as are all rights, but they are not rights at all if you have to ask permission from the government to own them and buy them or sell them. In Sweden, you do not have a right to own a gun; you have permission--permission which can be revoked at any time for any reason. It is as simple as that.
Collectivizing rights, as in saying that US gun owners/advocates have been shirking their (collective) responsibility for a long time, is a dishonest tactic but one that is often used by those seeking control over others through laws and regulations. Criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. Penalizing ordinary, law abiding people for the actions of criminals, both in and out of government, is the very definition of tyranny.
On another note, Tweety, are you familiar with Project Gunrunner and Operation Fast and Furious? These are criminal undertakings by the US government to provide arms to criminals in Mexico and then blame US gun dealers for the trafficking in an effort to demonize gun owners here in the US and to further anti-gun legislation. At least one Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry, has been killed by a weapon the government allowed into Mexico. This is the kind of criminal activity our wonderful government engages in in order to protect our rights.
10-31-2011, 10:27 AM
#44
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In California:
We can't carry concealed but we CAN open carry - as long as the gun in unloaded and the ammo is separated.
I've done this but every time I do, someone in public always freaks out-
I've been stopped twice by police and they requested to check it. No problem. They did and I went on my way.
Point being is that unless you really have a need for a firearm -then I don't suggest an open carry situation. It's just a nuisance.
We can't carry concealed but we CAN open carry - as long as the gun in unloaded and the ammo is separated.
I've done this but every time I do, someone in public always freaks out-
I've been stopped twice by police and they requested to check it. No problem. They did and I went on my way.
Point being is that unless you really have a need for a firearm -then I don't suggest an open carry situation. It's just a nuisance.
Last edited by Matt_Hawk; 10-31-2011 at 10:30 AM.
10-31-2011, 11:10 AM
#45
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I've had my own firearms since i was a young kid. I've never killed or shot anyone, never robbed or raped anyone, never threatened anyone. How am I "shirking my responsibility"?
You think I have a "responsibility" to surrender my rights and the rights of my brother Americans because some shitbird jackasses somewhere are abusing the rights we're guaranteed by our Constitution? That ain't gonna happen.
You think I have a "responsibility" to surrender my rights and the rights of my brother Americans because some shitbird jackasses somewhere are abusing the rights we're guaranteed by our Constitution? That ain't gonna happen.
If this entire thread were a conversation being conducted over a beer, either people would be more civil/rational in what they are saying, or someone would already have been popped in the nose.
Just sayin.....
10-31-2011, 11:52 AM
#46
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Assuming the Canadian (or Swede) is obeying the laws you're so pleased with, I think that unlikely.
Imagine several criminals have forced entry to your home this instant. What will you do?
"Excuse me, gentlemen, while I assemble my hunting rifle and secure some of my separately stored ammunition."?
What is the purpose of a law forbidding you to have an assembled, let alone loaded rifle in the home?
Afraid people would go momentarily insane and shoot their neighbors, but in the time it takes to install the bolt and load they'll regain control of themselves?
Seems more like some sort of religious or philosophical statement than a law that has any value.
Imagine several criminals have forced entry to your home this instant. What will you do?
"Excuse me, gentlemen, while I assemble my hunting rifle and secure some of my separately stored ammunition."?
What is the purpose of a law forbidding you to have an assembled, let alone loaded rifle in the home?
Afraid people would go momentarily insane and shoot their neighbors, but in the time it takes to install the bolt and load they'll regain control of themselves?
Seems more like some sort of religious or philosophical statement than a law that has any value.
You can completely legally store the gun complete, loaded and ready to fire... If it's in a locked gunrack, which by design prohibits it from being fired in the rack, and prohibits you from removing the ammunition while in the rack (preventing theft of the ammo)... Or in a gunsafe... If you want to store the weapon on the shelf, in your drawer or wherever, where it can be removed and used by a burglar (obviously when you aren't home), you need to remove "a vital part"...
I can get to my loaded guns in the time it takes to unlock the gunsafe... Hardly an inconvenience...
I suppose this is a safety measure which I can get behind as the parent of a young child but it obviously interferes with the gun owner's ability to protect himself on a moments notice. The philosophy seems to be that the gun is not a weapon for defense but for hunting and sport in the eyes of those laws.
Last edited by Tweety; 10-31-2011 at 12:14 PM.
10-31-2011, 11:57 AM
#47
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Tweety I'm plainly referring to Canada in my earlier posts.... I've never been to Sweden and I have little knowledge of the laws there. And the entire point of the Second Amendment is that the government should never be able to take guns away from lawful citizens. What's to stop all the government corruption from spreading if a firearm regulation system was tightened? It's a thin line to walk and I'm not personally sure where the line should be drawn, but it needs to be somewhere.
It seems you where "innocently" targeted, but it applies to a few others, which has absolutely no idea about any laws besides the US, and still feel justified in saying that the US laws are better than others... The reference to Swedens laws was an example, to show one part of what you can compare, given that you know something of both sides...
I also said, I don't believe the Swedish laws can be applied to the US, since there are already too many weapons in criminal hands... But, no regulation at all isn't the answer...
10-31-2011, 12:13 PM
#48
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making inflamatory statements is apparently his approach to convincing us that he's right and all of us in the US are wrong, I suppose.
If this entire thread were a conversation being conducted over a beer, either people would be more civil/rational in what they are saying, or someone would already have been popped in the nose.
Just sayin.....
If this entire thread were a conversation being conducted over a beer, either people would be more civil/rational in what they are saying, or someone would already have been popped in the nose.
Just sayin.....
I haven't said anything I wouldn't be comfortable with saying in person... How about you?
The reason for the nomination is simple... You choose to talk about me to someone else, making accusations about me, instead of adressing them to me, which I find rude... And you are implying, not to subtly that I'm either the one being rude, or at least one of them... I have so far NOT called anyone names, except if xeris feels his reply was indeed "tactful", which I don't believe he honestly does...
You have a different opinion than me... Fine, I'm not trying to change it... But what I will not accept, is people trying to compare US laws to "other" without known anything about "other"... You want to talk about US laws exclusively, fine, admit that they are as flawed as the rest, and have fun...
10-31-2011, 12:20 PM
#49
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So, what`s next, religion or abortion?.......
BTW, I purposely stayed out of this discussion, largely because I don`t really have a clear-cut opinion on the matter and I sensed it would evolve in this manner as gun ownership is a definite hot-button issue (like the two mentioned above).
FWIW, I grew up around guns, dad was a collector; had 31 guns at one point (some that would make any enthusiast drool). I was an active hunter until quite recently but, truth be told, even though I still have a shotgun and enjoy shooting off some rounds, guns never really excited me the way bikes and snowmobiles do......
Now back to the endless and irreconciliable debate.....
BTW, I purposely stayed out of this discussion, largely because I don`t really have a clear-cut opinion on the matter and I sensed it would evolve in this manner as gun ownership is a definite hot-button issue (like the two mentioned above).
FWIW, I grew up around guns, dad was a collector; had 31 guns at one point (some that would make any enthusiast drool). I was an active hunter until quite recently but, truth be told, even though I still have a shotgun and enjoy shooting off some rounds, guns never really excited me the way bikes and snowmobiles do......
Now back to the endless and irreconciliable debate.....
Last edited by mikstr; 10-31-2011 at 12:27 PM.
10-31-2011, 12:26 PM
#51
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Gun rights are individual rights, as are all rights, but they are not rights at all if you have to ask permission from the government to own them and buy them or sell them. In Sweden, you do not have a right to own a gun; you have permission--permission which can be revoked at any time for any reason. It is as simple as that.
Collectivizing rights, as in saying that US gun owners/advocates have been shirking their (collective) responsibility for a long time, is a dishonest tactic but one that is often used by those seeking control over others through laws and regulations. Criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. Penalizing ordinary, law abiding people for the actions of criminals, both in and out of government, is the very definition of tyranny.
On another note, Tweety, are you familiar with Project Gunrunner and Operation Fast and Furious? These are criminal undertakings by the US government to provide arms to criminals in Mexico and then blame US gun dealers for the trafficking in an effort to demonize gun owners here in the US and to further anti-gun legislation. At least one Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry, has been killed by a weapon the government allowed into Mexico. This is the kind of criminal activity our wonderful government engages in in order to protect our rights.
Collectivizing rights, as in saying that US gun owners/advocates have been shirking their (collective) responsibility for a long time, is a dishonest tactic but one that is often used by those seeking control over others through laws and regulations. Criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. Penalizing ordinary, law abiding people for the actions of criminals, both in and out of government, is the very definition of tyranny.
On another note, Tweety, are you familiar with Project Gunrunner and Operation Fast and Furious? These are criminal undertakings by the US government to provide arms to criminals in Mexico and then blame US gun dealers for the trafficking in an effort to demonize gun owners here in the US and to further anti-gun legislation. At least one Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry, has been killed by a weapon the government allowed into Mexico. This is the kind of criminal activity our wonderful government engages in in order to protect our rights.
One thing though... When did I ever say that regulating the guns means taking them away?! You and others keep bringing that point up... I have never said it, and I will never say it...
There is a very big difference between being legally obligated to register each gun and having the guns taken away... Yeah, agreed if the US governement is corrupt, the two are the same... So then, do you think they are? If so, start a revolt... Otherwise, I prefer talking about realistic things...
I'm not familiar with either of those projects... But I'll read up on them...
10-31-2011, 12:33 PM
#52
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I think the time may be right for a fastest colour discussion, ol
FWIW, while I hope to never have to, I would be open to using a gun to defend my family if I felt their lives were threatened. This does not, however, mean I want every half-wit and thug walking around ready to fire off a round at the slightest provocation.
Just think, if everyone treated their fellow man as they thmselves wished to be treated, we wouldn`t be having any of these volatile discussions..... my idealist side coming through......
FWIW, while I hope to never have to, I would be open to using a gun to defend my family if I felt their lives were threatened. This does not, however, mean I want every half-wit and thug walking around ready to fire off a round at the slightest provocation.
Just think, if everyone treated their fellow man as they thmselves wished to be treated, we wouldn`t be having any of these volatile discussions..... my idealist side coming through......
10-31-2011, 12:43 PM
#53
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Collectivizing rights, as in saying that US gun owners/advocates have been shirking their (collective) responsibility for a long time, is a dishonest tactic but one that is often used by those seeking control over others through laws and regulations. Criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. Penalizing ordinary, law abiding people for the actions of criminals, both in and out of government, is the very definition of tyranny.
I know the US Constitution gives you right to own guns, I'm not disputing that in any way... But where does it say you are allowed to store it in a way that makes it ridiculously easy to steal? Like one example out of this thread, where a gun was stored in a car... I guess, since the gun is fairly useless without ammunition, it's either loaded or stored with ammunition... So, the potential thief gets a gun as a bonus when trying to nick the radio... That's not really a safe way to store it in my view, and it's entirely possible that similar things are part of why you have lots of guns in criminal hands... Just a theory...
10-31-2011, 01:16 PM
#54
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Like I said, pretty explicitly... I was aware you where talking about Canada, and my main point was to all, not to make comparasions, regardless of with which country, unless the one making the comparasion knows anything about the rest of the world...
It seems you where "innocently" targeted, but it applies to a few others, which has absolutely no idea about any laws besides the US, and still feel justified in saying that the US laws are better than others... The reference to Swedens laws was an example, to show one part of what you can compare, given that you know something of both sides...
I also said, I don't believe the Swedish laws can be applied to the US, since there are already too many weapons in criminal hands... But, no regulation at all isn't the answer...
It seems you where "innocently" targeted, but it applies to a few others, which has absolutely no idea about any laws besides the US, and still feel justified in saying that the US laws are better than others... The reference to Swedens laws was an example, to show one part of what you can compare, given that you know something of both sides...
I also said, I don't believe the Swedish laws can be applied to the US, since there are already too many weapons in criminal hands... But, no regulation at all isn't the answer...
10-31-2011, 01:40 PM
#55
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nooksack WA
Posts: 834
if appears obvious from your statements I read that your intent is to make comments about people blended into your statements of facts and opinions. I can have a constructive conversation with anyone about facts or even opinions, but the negative comments thrown in about people is what would get you popped in the nose.
10-31-2011, 02:20 PM
#56
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,802
A pretty straigth forward question... Can you say without any reservation that the fact that guns have been available, and fairly easy to steal since there are pretty lax laws on how you store them, haven't played any part at all in the amount of guns currently available to criminals?
I know the US Constitution gives you right to own guns, I'm not disputing that in any way... But where does it say you are allowed to store it in a way that makes it ridiculously easy to steal? Like one example out of this thread, where a gun was stored in a car... I guess, since the gun is fairly useless without ammunition, it's either loaded or stored with ammunition... So, the potential thief gets a gun as a bonus when trying to nick the radio... That's not really a safe way to store it in my view, and it's entirely possible that similar things are part of why you have lots of guns in criminal hands... Just a theory...
I know the US Constitution gives you right to own guns, I'm not disputing that in any way... But where does it say you are allowed to store it in a way that makes it ridiculously easy to steal? Like one example out of this thread, where a gun was stored in a car... I guess, since the gun is fairly useless without ammunition, it's either loaded or stored with ammunition... So, the potential thief gets a gun as a bonus when trying to nick the radio... That's not really a safe way to store it in my view, and it's entirely possible that similar things are part of why you have lots of guns in criminal hands... Just a theory...
The US Constitution doesn't 'give' us the right to own guns. It merely enumerates a right we all have and protects that right from abridgement by tyrannical government.
Of course regulating guns is a prelude to confiscation of guns. It has historically been that way and will always be that way. Gun laws, as I and others have said many times, serve only to penalize the law abiding and facilitate governments and other criminal organizations as they go about the business of exploiting the law abiding. Criminals and tyrants don't like the righteous resistance of an armed citizenry.
The idea that someone is somehow responsible when another commits a crime against their property is ludicrous. The idea that laws will prevent criminals from committing crimes is even more ludicrous.
It must be noted that 99+% of the people in this country will never be victims of gun crimes, which puts the lie to any arguments proponents of "gun control" promulgate about gun laws and public safety. Useful idiots may believe they're doing a public service by promoting gun laws, but those driving the gun control agenda know well that the real reason for gun laws is and always has been citizen control.
Last edited by killer5280; 10-31-2011 at 02:26 PM.
10-31-2011, 02:34 PM
#57
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 1,707
Quick question are you allowed to carry crossbows?
Also when the day comes when the oft talked about tyrannical government comes to pass in the US (if it hasn't already happened i.e homeland security) what happens? will it be open hunting on everyone else carrying a gun or just limited to any civil servant/guvment official/national guard? or just Civil War II?
Also when the day comes when the oft talked about tyrannical government comes to pass in the US (if it hasn't already happened i.e homeland security) what happens? will it be open hunting on everyone else carrying a gun or just limited to any civil servant/guvment official/national guard? or just Civil War II?
10-31-2011, 07:07 PM
#59
Senior Member
Superstock
Superstock
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
I should've guessed that this would go the way it's gone. I was most interested to know from folks who are adamant about being armed why it's so important for the weapon to be hidden (beyond discomfort of others in public).
10-31-2011, 07:47 PM
#60
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
Shoot, that was answered in the first three posts, then people got bored and friendly online discussion ensued.
