CCT question
07-28-2011, 11:23 AM
#1
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: nor cal
Posts: 21
CCT question
let me preface this thread by stating that i've read all the CCT threads here, and i apologize for starting another one, at least its not an oil thread, (i use rotella 15-40 btw, and have 50k hard miles on my bike)
a long time ago my front chain was making a bit of noise, i took out my CCT and completely disassembled it. i saw that it was gummed up and could not turn with small amount of torque that the spring can apply, so i cleaned it well, polished in a lathe the top of the jack screw where it mates to the casing and put it back in. started reading forums about "upgraded designs" so i bought a brand new one, took it apart and compared to my 1998 original, i cannot see any difference, spring wire diameter, number of turns etc all the same.
do the upgraded versions use a different spring material?
are the failures commonly caused by spring breakage?
are the failures b/c of the lack of oil b/c the front CCT points down and does not get oil splash, gums up and cannot adjust itself like mine did?
every oil change i take off the access screw put a little oil in there, then turn the engine over with the starter and apply a very light CCW torque to the jack screw and it may move slightly, 1/8 turn maybe.
so the big fear in my mind is that if the CCT commonly fails by spring breakage, what i'm doing as CCT maintenance is not really a safe solution.
so what is the real failure mode on these things?
i have 3 or 4 extra CCTs around, i may put one of them in the lathe and convert it into a manual version....don't cost nothin'
thanks
a long time ago my front chain was making a bit of noise, i took out my CCT and completely disassembled it. i saw that it was gummed up and could not turn with small amount of torque that the spring can apply, so i cleaned it well, polished in a lathe the top of the jack screw where it mates to the casing and put it back in. started reading forums about "upgraded designs" so i bought a brand new one, took it apart and compared to my 1998 original, i cannot see any difference, spring wire diameter, number of turns etc all the same.
do the upgraded versions use a different spring material?
are the failures commonly caused by spring breakage?
are the failures b/c of the lack of oil b/c the front CCT points down and does not get oil splash, gums up and cannot adjust itself like mine did?
every oil change i take off the access screw put a little oil in there, then turn the engine over with the starter and apply a very light CCW torque to the jack screw and it may move slightly, 1/8 turn maybe.
so the big fear in my mind is that if the CCT commonly fails by spring breakage, what i'm doing as CCT maintenance is not really a safe solution.
so what is the real failure mode on these things?
i have 3 or 4 extra CCTs around, i may put one of them in the lathe and convert it into a manual version....don't cost nothin'
thanks
Last edited by chp_hates_me; 07-28-2011 at 11:38 AM.
07-28-2011, 01:02 PM
#2
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
The most usual failure seems to be a broken or fatigued spring yes... But there have been a few where the seat of the spring was worn to the point where things either couldn't move like they where supposed to, or in ways they wheren't supposed to, so oil starvation seems like a component...
Bottom line, nobody knows the exact reason or exact sequence to the failures... But we all know the end result... Backed out CCT and mushroomed valves...
My advice is to either treat the CCT's as a wear item that gets replaced at resonable intervalls, or make them manual... The choice is yours...
Bottom line, nobody knows the exact reason or exact sequence to the failures... But we all know the end result... Backed out CCT and mushroomed valves...
My advice is to either treat the CCT's as a wear item that gets replaced at resonable intervalls, or make them manual... The choice is yours...
07-29-2011, 05:44 PM
#3
Just hangin' out
Back Marker
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delaware, Ohio USA
Posts: 136
let me preface this thread by stating that i've read all the CCT threads here, and i apologize for starting another one, at least its not an oil thread, (i use rotella 15-40 btw, and have 50k hard miles on my bike)
a long time ago my front chain was making a bit of noise, i took out my CCT and completely disassembled it. i saw that it was gummed up and could not turn with small amount of torque that the spring can apply, so i cleaned it well, polished in a lathe the top of the jack screw where it mates to the casing and put it back in. started reading forums about "upgraded designs" so i bought a brand new one, took it apart and compared to my 1998 original, i cannot see any difference, spring wire diameter, number of turns etc all the same.
do the upgraded versions use a different spring material?
are the failures commonly caused by spring breakage?
are the failures b/c of the lack of oil b/c the front CCT points down and does not get oil splash, gums up and cannot adjust itself like mine did?
every oil change i take off the access screw put a little oil in there, then turn the engine over with the starter and apply a very light CCW torque to the jack screw and it may move slightly, 1/8 turn maybe.
so the big fear in my mind is that if the CCT commonly fails by spring breakage, what i'm doing as CCT maintenance is not really a safe solution.
so what is the real failure mode on these things?
i have 3 or 4 extra CCTs around, i may put one of them in the lathe and convert it into a manual version....don't cost nothin'
thanks
a long time ago my front chain was making a bit of noise, i took out my CCT and completely disassembled it. i saw that it was gummed up and could not turn with small amount of torque that the spring can apply, so i cleaned it well, polished in a lathe the top of the jack screw where it mates to the casing and put it back in. started reading forums about "upgraded designs" so i bought a brand new one, took it apart and compared to my 1998 original, i cannot see any difference, spring wire diameter, number of turns etc all the same.
do the upgraded versions use a different spring material?
are the failures commonly caused by spring breakage?
are the failures b/c of the lack of oil b/c the front CCT points down and does not get oil splash, gums up and cannot adjust itself like mine did?
every oil change i take off the access screw put a little oil in there, then turn the engine over with the starter and apply a very light CCW torque to the jack screw and it may move slightly, 1/8 turn maybe.
so the big fear in my mind is that if the CCT commonly fails by spring breakage, what i'm doing as CCT maintenance is not really a safe solution.
so what is the real failure mode on these things?
i have 3 or 4 extra CCTs around, i may put one of them in the lathe and convert it into a manual version....don't cost nothin'
thanks
I will tell you once your cam chains are seated in the adjustment of the chain slack is almost non-existent. I haven't adjusted the cam drive on my 550 in over 10,000 miles now and can't remember when I did the last adjustment on my KLX - no clicking, no slack, no adjustment - that simple.
Just remember to follow the proper installation process and do NOT tighten the adjuster bolts more than finger tight per instructions. The chains don't need tension, they just need the play adjusted out.
And yes, I'm one of the guys that makes them telling you to make your own. It's about the bikes, not the bucks. If you have the time, the material, the equipment, and the skill then why not make your own. I'm here for the guy who can't for any of those reasons.
Last edited by klx678; 07-29-2011 at 05:47 PM.
07-29-2011, 05:56 PM
#4
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
People have very cheaply and converted the auto ones to manual ones (i.e. don't need material or much equipment) using a bolt and a couple of other parts... it's somewhere on the forum.
08-11-2011, 03:17 PM
#5
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rosedale Maryland
Posts: 288
I don't want to start a new thread, so I thought I'd zombify this one. If you just bought a used Hawk with no knowledge of it's history, can you tell if it has manual CCT's? I mean, by looking at the engine, does something stick out? If not, does everyone open up the engine just to see whether or not they have them?
08-11-2011, 03:28 PM
#6
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
It's very easy... The rear one is easier to spot (almost guaranteed that both are changed if any of the PO's bothered to change them).
Look just behind your frame on the right side of your bike. This pick I have jacked from the CCT install linked in my sid:
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
Manual CCT's have a long threaded bolt coming out from them (as seen in the pic). Auto ones are in the same location, encased in aluminum and have a very small bolt with no exposed threads at the tip:
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
Edit: What you can't tell is if you have OEM ones that have been replaced with newer OEM ones...
Look just behind your frame on the right side of your bike. This pick I have jacked from the CCT install linked in my sid:
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
Manual CCT's have a long threaded bolt coming out from them (as seen in the pic). Auto ones are in the same location, encased in aluminum and have a very small bolt with no exposed threads at the tip:
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
Edit: What you can't tell is if you have OEM ones that have been replaced with newer OEM ones...
10-12-2011, 03:29 PM
#8
haha yeah
Squid
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 45min SE Orlando
Posts: 69
i picked up pair blockoffs and manual ccts off superdutyd. thanks .. so 2 hours outside checking and double rechecking myself, was a piece of cake everything went like it should.. until trying to tighten down the 1/2" nut on the front cct.
even to remove the coolant line in the way there is a minihand job ripped my knuckle up for the 2nd and best time trying to get the hose off... i can tell it has never been off before!
i was out at 5:30 doing laundry and did house cleaning all morning, thought id chill out to relaxing project for me afterwards
haha few beers later its dinner time and i got frustrated because i have hands like an ape. and my thumb knuckle was bleeding enough already..
so i ask for an idea for tomarrow: How the hell do you tighten down the 1/2 nut on the front cct !?! maybe chopsticks will work?
funny how much work you end up doing on a vacation day than a regular day at work, when your job is busting your ***!
even to remove the coolant line in the way there is a minihand job ripped my knuckle up for the 2nd and best time trying to get the hose off... i can tell it has never been off before!i was out at 5:30 doing laundry and did house cleaning all morning, thought id chill out to relaxing project for me afterwards
haha few beers later its dinner time and i got frustrated because i have hands like an ape. and my thumb knuckle was bleeding enough already..
so i ask for an idea for tomarrow: How the hell do you tighten down the 1/2 nut on the front cct !?! maybe chopsticks will work?
funny how much work you end up doing on a vacation day than a regular day at work, when your job is busting your ***!
10-12-2011, 03:34 PM
#9
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,132
i picked up pair blockoffs and manual ccts off superdutyd. thanks .. so 2 hours outside checking and double rechecking myself, was a piece of cake everything went like it should.. until trying to tighten down the 1/2" nut on the front cct.
even to remove the coolant line in the way there is a minihand job ripped my knuckle up for the 2nd and best time trying to get the hose off... i can tell it has never been off before!
i was out at 5:30 doing laundry and did house cleaning all morning, thought id chill out to relaxing project for me afterwards
haha few beers later its dinner time and i got frustrated because i have hands like an ape. and my thumb knuckle was bleeding enough already..
so i ask for an idea for tomarrow: How the hell do you tighten down the 1/2 nut on the front cct !?! maybe chopsticks will work?
funny how much work you end up doing on a vacation day than a regular day at work, when your job is busting your ***!
even to remove the coolant line in the way there is a minihand job ripped my knuckle up for the 2nd and best time trying to get the hose off... i can tell it has never been off before!i was out at 5:30 doing laundry and did house cleaning all morning, thought id chill out to relaxing project for me afterwards
haha few beers later its dinner time and i got frustrated because i have hands like an ape. and my thumb knuckle was bleeding enough already..
so i ask for an idea for tomarrow: How the hell do you tighten down the 1/2 nut on the front cct !?! maybe chopsticks will work?
funny how much work you end up doing on a vacation day than a regular day at work, when your job is busting your ***!
10-12-2011, 06:08 PM
#10
Retired- but not tired!
SuperBike
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,478
10-12-2011, 07:25 PM
#11
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 258
I had the same problems as you.
I set my tension with an extension, flex joint and some odd S.A.E socket with the engine running. Then I tugged the carbs out (but left everything attached) and set them off to the left, then I just got on it with my regular sockets set to tighten and then I just used an open ended wrench on the lower set nut.
I had enough of pulling my hair out to deal with that after like 7 straight hrs of dicking with the bike.
You can set the tension with the airbox off so you could theoretically leave the carbs on and then just go at it from the top with an open ended wrench.
I set my tension with an extension, flex joint and some odd S.A.E socket with the engine running. Then I tugged the carbs out (but left everything attached) and set them off to the left, then I just got on it with my regular sockets set to tighten and then I just used an open ended wrench on the lower set nut.
I had enough of pulling my hair out to deal with that after like 7 straight hrs of dicking with the bike.
You can set the tension with the airbox off so you could theoretically leave the carbs on and then just go at it from the top with an open ended wrench.
10-13-2011, 08:59 AM
#12
haha yeah
Squid
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 45min SE Orlando
Posts: 69
I had the same problems as you.
I set my tension with an extension, flex joint and some odd S.A.E socket with the engine running. Then I tugged the carbs out (but left everything attached) and set them off to the left, then I just got on it with my regular sockets set to tighten and then I just used an open ended wrench on the lower set nut.
I had enough of pulling my hair out to deal with that after like 7 straight hrs of dicking with the bike.
You can set the tension with the airbox off so you could theoretically leave the carbs on and then just go at it from the top with an open ended wrench.
I set my tension with an extension, flex joint and some odd S.A.E socket with the engine running. Then I tugged the carbs out (but left everything attached) and set them off to the left, then I just got on it with my regular sockets set to tighten and then I just used an open ended wrench on the lower set nut.
I had enough of pulling my hair out to deal with that after like 7 straight hrs of dicking with the bike.
You can set the tension with the airbox off so you could theoretically leave the carbs on and then just go at it from the top with an open ended wrench.
i didnt even have to adjust them at all. but why wouldnt i test the adjustments to find the clicking and make sure i was dead on? so i tugged the carbs out with everything attached. and after i set them off to the left. it was so much easier to adjust the cct. little qtr turn tighter and i tried starting it up. ****** WOULDNT START AT ALL, so i turned it back a qtr turn and tried to fire it up again... what went wrong when i tried it with your method? and why do i have so much oil on the ground now?
10-13-2011, 05:34 PM
#13
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 258
i found the right wrench for the job, made by craftsman. it swivels like a helicopter but has a ratchet joint and ball bearings, fully adjustable from 1/4"- 5/8" with the turn of the ****. so i didnt need to touch my carbs at all. and tried firing her up! ran beautifully...
i didnt even have to adjust them at all. but why wouldnt i test the adjustments to find the clicking and make sure i was dead on? so i tugged the carbs out with everything attached. and after i set them off to the left. it was so much easier to adjust the cct. little qtr turn tighter and i tried starting it up. ****** WOULDNT START AT ALL, so i turned it back a qtr turn and tried to fire it up again... what went wrong when i tried it with your method? and why do i have so much oil on the ground now?
i didnt even have to adjust them at all. but why wouldnt i test the adjustments to find the clicking and make sure i was dead on? so i tugged the carbs out with everything attached. and after i set them off to the left. it was so much easier to adjust the cct. little qtr turn tighter and i tried starting it up. ****** WOULDNT START AT ALL, so i turned it back a qtr turn and tried to fire it up again... what went wrong when i tried it with your method? and why do i have so much oil on the ground now?
Only kidding. But if you look behind the lock nut (engine side) there is an o-ring there to keep oil from weeping from those threads and if that was off a little bit that can explain a little bit of oil.
It wouldn't start because you probably had too much tension on the cams and had rotated them off by a degree what would prevent them from starting. When you do that it can actually pull the cams up slightly in their holders on the top end and mess stuff up really quickly which is why it's important to use a torque wrench whenever doing any top end work.
I don't think a 1/4 of a turn should change the tension that much to stop it from running. So I would pull off the cover and just double check that it's taught to finger pressure, but it will deflect very lightly when pressure is applied.
And where exactly was the oil? I had a puddle on the ground but that was because someone (not me!) tried to start the bike without the timing mark cover bolt.
10-13-2011, 09:12 PM
#14
haha yeah
Squid
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 45min SE Orlando
Posts: 69
when i removed the carbs with everything still attached, OIL WAS LIKE THE FOURTH OF JULY, OR A BAD HORROR MOVIE.
its all good. pickup on sarcasm next time you see some green in cali.
its all good. pickup on sarcasm next time you see some green in cali.
You did remember to put the carbs BACK on right ? Only kidding.
But if you look behind the lock nut (engine side) there is an o-ring there to keep oil from weeping from those threads and if that was off a little bit that can explain a little bit of oil.
It wouldn't start because you probably had too much tension on the cams and had rotated them off by a degree what would prevent them from starting. When you do that it can actually pull the cams up slightly in their holders on the top end and mess stuff up really quickly which is why it's important to use a torque wrench whenever doing any top end work.
I don't think a 1/4 of a turn should change the tension that much to stop it from running. So I would pull off the cover and just double check that it's taught to finger pressure, but it will deflect very lightly when pressure is applied.
And where exactly was the oil? I had a puddle on the ground but that was because someone (not me!) tried to start the bike without the timing mark cover bolt.
Only kidding. But if you look behind the lock nut (engine side) there is an o-ring there to keep oil from weeping from those threads and if that was off a little bit that can explain a little bit of oil.
It wouldn't start because you probably had too much tension on the cams and had rotated them off by a degree what would prevent them from starting. When you do that it can actually pull the cams up slightly in their holders on the top end and mess stuff up really quickly which is why it's important to use a torque wrench whenever doing any top end work.
I don't think a 1/4 of a turn should change the tension that much to stop it from running. So I would pull off the cover and just double check that it's taught to finger pressure, but it will deflect very lightly when pressure is applied.
And where exactly was the oil? I had a puddle on the ground but that was because someone (not me!) tried to start the bike without the timing mark cover bolt.
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