Weird starting problem
 

So I recently changed the starter, then the starter relay/solenoid, then cleaned and lubed the starter switch.

But still I am having a no start issue when the bike is pretty hot. (city traffic) until it cools a few minutes.

The only thing I can think of is compression release or similar. What else is even in the starter circuit?

If anyone has seen this or has clue let me know since its pretty stumping now. (and annoying to sit roadside til stuff cools.)

I'm assuming the battery is FLA, AGM, or similar. Have you done a load test on the battery?

Yes battery is new and strong. In fact the last time this happened I connected my LIPO4 battery that I keep under the seat for emergency jump starts and still no nothing.

Use the lith-ion (or some other battery) to jump directly to the starter bypassing the relay.

Just to be clear: does the bike crank but not fire, or not crank at all?

If its a cranking issue Check you ground cables. could be loose.

So its not cranking, not clicking or anything. This is why I suspected the starter button but how would a warm motor affect that?

Also why I figured compression lock.

If there is no click then the starter solenoid is not activating, so you have an electrical issue, nothing to do with compression. The starter solenoid circuit includes two fuses, the engine kill switch, the starter button and the ignition switch, along with sundry connectors and the battery terminal connections. Maybe somewhere in all of that you have a lightly corroded connection that is affected by heat or movement of the bike.

Sounds like a bad ground issue

So yes I thought of the connectors since the one on the old solenoid was white and powdery (thought I found the issue)

So my next step is to clean all connectors and I guess check grounds.

dont forget the clutch interlock switch in the diag...
If you have piece of 14ga wire and a normally open push button switch plus two med sized alligator clips.. make a quick starter bypass switch.. (EDIT. you can buy one for $10 as well https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3630-R...starter+switch

Remember, that is only to trigger the relay,, it is not designed for high amperage of bypassing the relay... though there are those type of remote starter switches as well..just moree $$$$)

when the issue happens, with leads to battery positive and then relay trigger terminal, key on..push button, if it cranks and starts, A : your not stuck someplace and B: you just helped confirm your Diag, and now get to start hunting down the open circuit

Thanks Erik, but first, diag is diagram?

And to be clear you mean jumping right from positive battery lead to the relay wire coming off the relay?

Diagnosis.

Sorry.. DIAG= Diagnosis.

The starter relay has 4 terminals, two large, two small.
The two large are primary power in, then primary power out (full battery power and amperage capable, LARGE wires)
the two small terminals are ground and trigger...the trigger is a low amp source from the starter button..that triggers (closes) the starter relay ..
The problem is, on the relay, both the ground circuit and the 12v trigger circuit could have opens.

The ground side of the relay comes by way of the clutch safety switch.. if that switch or its wiring failed, the starter relay gets no ground..
The 12v trigger side of the relay comes by way of the starter button.
the relay trigger and ground terminals are enclosed in the relay housing and the plug.. you would need to remove the plug to access the terminals.
Or you can back pin them with a needle probe if you have that.
A neat tool for doing diagnosis on an issue like this is a power probe. as with the flip of a switch it can provide a ground path or 12v..makes testing relays, light circuits, switches ect very easy.
if this is all greek to you, I can take a pic or 10 and show you what i mean...

Thanks, that will give me some digging to do.

Is the clutch safety switch bypassable easily, like at the clutch lever, or are there too many other places it could fail. Meaning can I just connect the wires at the clutch lever to remove that as possible issue? (nevermind the safety thing of doing that)

Today I unplugged, clean then replugged with dielectric grease many connectors including ecu, black box, starter button connector, etc.

Problem remains but will keep checking stuff.

Oh and by each side of the relay having possible opens, do you mean putting 12 volts to it with a temp starter button may not make the bike turn over?

Been reading online, there is a ton written about similar problems but on one thread someone swore it was the RR.

I just replaced mine but also have 2 voltmeters so am pretty sure if it was on the blink I would know.

Besides, a bad rr tends to leave you with a dead battery, but mine is really strong.

Just thinking out loud. (or in print).

Are you in neutral when trying to start? If you're in neutral, I believe this takes the clutch switch out of the circuit (bypasses it). If not, then isn't the side stand switch also in the circuit with the clutch switch? i.e.: if not in neutral, then you must pull the clutch in and have the side stand up to start.

Is the clutch safety switch bypassable easily, like at the clutch lever,

Yes, its two terminals, a jumper wire in the two terminals on wiring harness side will bypass the switch.

or are there too many other places it could fail.
Sure, wiring anywhere along the \way ...could be an open (broken wire)
Meaning can I just connect the wires at the clutch lever to remove that as possible issue? (nevermind the safety thing of doing that)
Yes

Oh and by each side of the relay having possible opens, do you mean putting 12 volts to it with a temp starter button may not make the bike turn over?

Both sides of the relay... as in the hot trigger power coming in from the starter button ..that circuit could be faulty...an open , or a short.
Or the ground side of the relay that ground path comes to the relay by way of the safety switch...so the switch could be bad, or an open on the circuit (broken wire, bad connection)

You really need a digital volt meter to test with, and you need it with you, so you can test when the fault happens.
A test light could mostly do the job as well,,,better a test light that has voltage reading as well.

Better yet would be a Power Probe 3 as then you can do it all with providing a gound path, or 12vdc, and read voltage

So Erik I am staring at the wiring diagram, and it looks like green/red (wire) and yellow/red is the switched wire so if I jump 12v to one of themwith my test button that should trigger the relay to spin the starter yes?

Or do I use the push button to ground one of them?

What year do you have? there is a difference in wiring early to late

Yellow / red is the wire you want to jump 12v to..that should cause the relay to close providing power to the starter.

The green / red wire is ground....if you test and have 12V at the yellow red wire when you push the starter button or jump 12v to it.. then check for a ground on the green / red wire.... if it is testing as open, jump it to ground.

Wow ok perfect thanks.

My bike is 98 but the motor is 05. Everything is wired the same as 98 since I did the motor swap in my garage a few years ago.

Will mess with it tomorrow. Put on a new starter button today. Also put a really nice jumper on that pesky clutch switch

Updates tomorrow.

AFAIK, the clutch switch only needs to be functional if you are starting the bike in gear. If you're in neutral, then the earth connection is through the neutral switch, unless the diode is also playing up.

So yes, the infamous diode, was thinking of that staring at the wiring diagram......

So I now have a super secret push button starter hidden in my tail section. Right now it works with the ignition off but I will tap into a keyed power wire.

I will only get to test it if the bike continues down the no hot start path.

It actually started hot yesterday but that was only once.

Had a fun moment rolling into the Queens midtown tunnel to Manhattan. My normal habit it to turn the bike off and coast downhill to avoid overheating. I instinctively did this Friday night with my wife on the back only to remember my issue. Of course the bike wouldn't start back up and it was heavy NYC Friday night traffic in the tunne.(!)

Fortunately, I dropped the clutch in 2nd gear and the momentum let me bump start. Crisis averted.

Anyway, thanks Erik for the help, got the backup starter button going quicker than otherwise.

Ok, here is some more info.

The ground side is the real suspect in this case. The low amp 12 volts goes right from the starter switch to the solenoid.

According to my sleuthing the ground side goes from the ground through the sidestand (main suspect) then through the clutch switch, then to the solenoid.

My full wager is on the sidestand getting old and working poorly when the bike gets hot and heats up the switch.

So really I shoulda made the pushbutton go to the ground side. This way I'd have to push the secret button and the starter button but it should work.

Really I plan to jump the sidestand switch and see if that solves it, I bet it will, but I am an optimist.

Too bad someone didn't mention the side stand switch earlier.

http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/u...bury64/VTR.png

What you say about the clutch and sidestand switches is true IF the bike is in gear.

If the bike is in neutral then the ground circuit is also completed through the diode to the neutral switch thence to ground. You could check for continuity from the solenoid green/red wire to light green at the diode to the neutral switch wire or to ground; need to have the meter connected right for this as the diode only passes current one way. The neutral switch is located just below the clutch slave cylinder, easy enough to pull the wire off the terminal to test..

Hmmmm so this is interesting. One other factoid is that when the bike gets to the temps needed to prevent starting, I will tend to loose the neutral light on the dash......

Is the neutral switch in the motor or easily replaceable? I have a weird feeling that may have something to do with it, maybe.

The other option is to just run a dedicated ground to the starter solenoid low amp side but that would also defeat the safety features of the sidestand cutout.

Oh and Cadbury thanks for that diagram, I needed that.

Oh, wait, the neutral switch only is used for the illumination of the dash, not to stop or interrupt the ground circuit(?).

So that may explain my dash light issue but not the no start issue(?)

That would explain your starting issue if you're trying to start it in neutral with the side stand down. In that scenario, the only ground path for the starter solenoid is through the neutral switch. Sounds like you have a flaky neutral switch. Next time it happens, put the side stand up and pull in the clutch and see if it starts.

Hmmm, this sounds familiar.

The neutral light relies on the same path to ground i.e. through the neutral switch, as does the starter solenoid. Both pass through the diode and then share a common path to the neutral switch. So the issue could be in the diode, or the wire to the neutral switch, or the switch itself.

The switch can be tested for continuity to ground, should be closed in neutral, and open at any other gear. So a voltmeter connected from the battery positive to the terminal of the neutral switch should show 12v or thereabouts in neutral, and 0v in gear.

If needed Partzilla shows the neutral switch at $11, p/no 35600-KE8-003

No, since the clutch switch at the lever has already been bridged and I do try it in neutral with the stand up, but if the stand switch is wonky, and so is the neutral switch, that would be the perfect storm right?

How hard is the neutral switch to change?

The neutral switch just screws into the engine case, 12N-m torque.

Yes, if the neutral switch is NFG and the stand switch is NFG then the perfect storm is gonna rain on Joe's parade.

Maybe your stand switch has been bad for a while. You wouldn't notice if you normally start in neutral.

So for sure neutral switch is my first culprit. If only due to the neutral light flickering and going out it heavy hot traffic.

Looked at it and that's easy enuff. My bet it that the neutral switch is the keystone to this. (or maybe the wire but that's easy to change too.)

A neutral switch is only a couple or three ££ / $$ and takes a minute to fit.

http://www.motorcycleproducts.co.uk/images/543895.jpg

Yeah wick, already bought one on partzilla, as well as the sidestand switch. I think that should eliminate most of the possible hardware suspects.

Not my normal character but it poured today and I didn't ride. I promised myself to do everything to get my multiple broken bones to finish healing. (although I am riding in the dry).

Plus I am fixing my Givi maxia topcase so will post pics of that build.

Getting closer each move. Allegedly.

Ok PROBLEM SEEMS GONE.

Today I put in a new neutral switch and sidestand switch.

This totally solved my flickering neutral light. The sidestand switch I believe was heat stroked and was maybe failing when very hot so figured it was a reasonable thing to swap.

Before that I changed the starter, starter swich, and starter solenoid/relay.

I actually ordered the diode before today.

Bike will now start when piping hot which was a real safety issue considering the environment I ride.

Thanks to anyone who helped.

Outstanding.