johnboy

my local dealer has suggested that i use a non o ring chain with a clip link.is a non o ring chain ok and is it safe to use the clip link.im not sure about the non o ring will prob go with o ring,but can i use the clip link with it and how safe would it be. It would definatly save buying the rivetting tool. thanks john

VTRsurfer

I recently talked with a friend of mine who has worked in the motorcycle industry for 40 years. He said an O-ring chain will last twice as long.

johnboy

thanks i will go with o-ring chain but still need to know if i can use the clip link master link.

johnboy

also is the stock chain 120 links or 102 ?.my manual says 102 but ive read on the forum 120 .

trinc

120 is a standard aftermarket size & is to be cut to the required length.

a clip style can be used but you must check it often - the rivot style is prefered.


tim

k-d-williams

I would suggest buying the best chain that you can afford in the x-ring style.

Rivit style clip is very much preffered, as i have lost clips on several occasions on other bikes.

Circuit_Burner

I throw the press-on links in the trash and use clip links of the right size.
Ive lost chains due to those shitty links too many times.
The last 3 failures were failures of that link only.
Hardened my attitude about them permanently.

JamieDaugherty

You might want to change that to "ten times as long". Seriously. Do not even waste your time with a non-o-ring chain.

Hotbrakes

If your dealer actually suggested a non o ring chain and a clip master link I would never step foot in there again! Look at what comes stock...o ring with no master link...because they fail! Unfortunately the only way to install a chain with no link would be swingarm removal. The dealer is obiously trying to sucker you into buying a new engine. When the chincy clip link flies apart on the highway and the chain whips around and takes out your left case you will be upset. The dealer will be happy. If you don't feel comfortable pressing the links on yourself have a mechanic do it.

Don't skimp on parts whose failure could result in extensive repair bills. Cutting corners is best left to suicide bombers.

RK1

Amen. You've run into an ******* who is overstocked with 1960s technology 6000 mile life non o ring chains. Run!

Get yourself an "O" ring ( or "X" ring) which cost half again as much but last three to five times longer.

inderocker

It's also a good idea to take advantage of the Super Hawks frame design and get an uncut, 102 link chain. With the swingarm being connected to the engine and not the frame, install is a breeze.

Circuit_Burner

Chincy clip link?
You had better collect more data on failure rates.
Press links fail more than clip links in my world, which may not be the same world you are in.
If some retard puts the clip on backwards they deserve a busted case.

smokinjoe73

Yeah, I would seriously wonder about a dealer who ever suggested a non o ring. Actually, no I wouldnt. I would be sure that he is making certain you will return SOON to give him more cash. After riding around 200k miles & 11 years of racing I trust a properly installed clip master link. I have seen failures of them and rivet/peened links equally. Just my 2 cents. There are always other dealers/shops; FIND ONE.

motojoe

I had a new 530 non-o-ring chain with a clip master link that I used to for 2000 miles.
Would I use one again? No. Why? Chain adjustments every day. Stretched like a rubber band. I have just replaced it with new sprockets(16/43) and an RK X-ring chain with a rivet clip. First time using rivet clip. We'll see. I've always used clip-style master links in the past.

JamieDaugherty

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a clip-type master link. I've used one on every chain that I've even installed without a single problem. All of my racebikes had clip master links. My current VTR has one and has 100's of race track miles as well as 1000's of street miles on it. It's so far out of my mind that I almost forgot that's what I was using.

Thumper

O-ring with clip installed the correct way is best option.

Tweety

I'd say that the failure rate on both are about the same if used correctly... As in very, very low...

If you mount the clip the wrong way, not fully seated and what-not you get problems... Same goes when you stake the master link, seat it fully and stake it to the correct size and shape of the pinhead and I have yet too see a failure... Usually people that get problems have either not seated the plate fully or overdone/not fully staked the end of the pin and then you get failures...

For me it's easy... Trackbike with frequent sprocket and/or wheel change = clip master link and good quality alu sprockets...
Roadbike with less frequent changes and more miles = steel sprocket and staked master link... Use stuff appropriately and they work... Use them wrong and they fail... It's that easy...

doggerman

WOW I didn't think anybody used clips any more.I'll have to bring this subject up with the local guru's.....Is this the new oil,tire debate.

Circuit_Burner

The physical actions of the two components ( master links ) are what stand out to me.
One is a solid, very rigid structure with parts that dont deform easily.
The other is a softer component that requires deformation of key components for installation.
A link like a press-on wouldnt be used on anything that flies ... thats for sure.

Tweety

You know I can't fully understand your reasoning... If you have reason to believe that the staked master link will fail how do you feel about the 101 links in your clip master chain that isn't held together with a clip?

The only difference between them and a staked master link is that it's done on a factory line, they are still a solid metal pin mushroomed at the end to lock the plates... And they are all of the same material, there is no difference once you have mushroomed the end of the master link, as long as it's done to the correct amount...

Circuit_Burner

I know better dude. sorry if you dont agree.
Its not the same metal nor does it have the same strength as the normal link pins..
and even if they did, I guarantee the global failure rates for that link are higher than properly intalled clip links. ( this obviously removes the people who mistakenly install their clips backwards )
Same thing out beyond the motorcycle world, where chains get all kinds of abuse in machinery.
They ship those mushroom links because theyre a few cents cheaper thats all.
Cheap bastards.

Tweety

Well at least the technician at DID told us they where the exact same material when I was on a guided tour of the factory... For others I wouldn't know...

Circuit_Burner

Do a hardness test ( well its not like you have the stuff in the kitchen ) if you can...
on the various parts. Even scribe it with a diamond scribe.
( I will get a local QC department to give me an actual measurement and will share findings )
What you will find is most of the time the press links they throw in the chain packages are all 3rd party chinese ****, not even japanese, and definetely not from the chain manufactuer themselves. Thats just red flag city to me.
Hell, even some of the clip links are the same way, 3rd party.

When people start doing something a certain way, its completely natural for them to hold fast to their way. I do that too I think.
Until you see a large amount of evidence in the real world application, its difficult to have a truly
accurate picture formed outside of what they tell you in magazines and commercials.
In the early 90's, similar to your experience with DID representative, A rep from Regina ( finest chains on earth, seriously ) told our shop all about the masterlinks and proper installation (duh). In the presentation we learned about the different links and when each type should be used. Clip links being the most robust.
So that pretty much fried my brain into beleiving in clip links , lol.
Everyone gets to do what they want, and thats beautiful.
(so I am a clip link bastard)

Preference in oil , tires, stuff like that, people will **** on themselves arguing about it, hehe.

Tweety

Well I witnessed firsthand a whole bunch of master links being produced, so they are most definitely not 3'rd party in that case... And as far as I could tell (we got to poke around quite a bit) the pins for the master link was taken from the same supply as the others...

In fact the links was manufactured as bottom plate and two pins, bottom mushroomed and pins locked into the plate... A whole bunch of them, then a few where just left that way to become master links, an others where mated up to the inner link plates and mushroomed in the other end, forming the chain... The plates also came from the exact same supply...

So I can at least say for sure that DID chains have as far as I know identical materials in all the links, including the master... According to the techies, once properly staked it has about 99% the same strength as the rest of the links (machines are abit more accurate apparently... )... And properly means take a caliper, measure plate to plate, it should be the same as on the rest on the chain, then stake the end, it should have the same diameter as the rest of the pins, and no cracks at the edges...

mboe794

I'm %100 percent confident in my clip-style master. I've always used them on every bike and never once did I have any kind of problem. Most of my experience is with motocross bikes, which in my opinion, gives more of a beating to a chain than any streetbike. Hundreds of races and nearly twenty years of riding I've never seen a chain fail in any way related to the master link.

Circuit_Burner

I think the worst part of mushroom links, is on o-ring chains you have to leave a few o-rings off to make it fit most times. Its like they supply the wrong link almost.

Fozzy Bear

Maybe thats why you have had failures in the past. I put a new DID 530 on about 6 weeks ago and the spare x rings fitted quite easily.

Circuit_Burner

No, I throw those mushroom links in the trash when I see them.
For this reason.
In lets say, 100 drive chain replacements ( a conservative number )
on all varieties of streetbikes and brands using o-ring chains, Ive seen the o-rings left off press-on mushroom master links at least half of the time.
Obviously someone was having installation difficulties with these things.
when putting one on a 530 chain, and trying to use all 4 o-rings on the master link, its a less-than-assuring feeling knowing that piece of crap mushroomhead has this side plate pressing against it from the pressure of the o-rings crammed on the link... waiting to explode that side plate off the chain.
Like I said, that **** would never fly on an aircraft.
I mean its like trusting Glue, ... or .. Tape ... for something critically important. LOL !

**** what the spodes behind the counter say, sheesh.
Run your **** the way you see fit. lol
no argument here.

fuzzuki

Motorcycle people get brainwashed easily.
When a new product comes out that looks to be better than what is the norm. They jump right on it and start sing it's praises.

Chains are one of them.

Come on now. This X ring bull$hit is crazy. I've had one that was junk.

How come all my O-ring chains get tight spots in them????

Regular non o-ring chains never get tight spots in them.

I'v use non o-ring chains with clips masters. Loved them. Trusted it just fine.
non o-ring chains just need a little more TLC and they last pretty good.
Keep in mind you've got to go buy a top quality non o-ring chain.
Oiling your chain about every 2nd or 3rd day.

C clip master links are just fine. Don't fall for all this crap.
Just make sure the clip swims like a fish.

Tweety

Yeah they where having difficulties... Not because they don't fit... but because I fully agree it's fiddly to get all the pieces in there and to get them to stay in there to stake it... If you do it wrong... But not harder than with a clip link if you do it right...

The part that most leave out is to press the plate down on the pins... If you press it down to the same width plate-to-plate as the rest of the chain, before staking the pins it will stay there on it's own while you fiddle around...

Also, the O or X rings isn't supposed to press on the plate, since they should be sitting on a "shelf" around the inner link, sealing the perimeter, while the link inner and outer plate actually are against each other...

Also, if you seriously believe the pressure of an O ring can explode a chain... Step of the bike and back away... Slowly... The whole idea of a combustion engine operates on much higher pressure...

Your argument against staked masters is simple and seriously flawed... They fail if you use them wrong... Because that is what you are saying, isn't it? an sealed chain with an unsealed staked master... Gee, big surprise that it fails at that point... And for sure the fault is that it's not a clip type... ?!

Well then, if you use a clip the wrong way (ie literally the wrong way) and it fails then by using the same logic, that is because of the o-rings?!

Depends... how do you treat your O or X ring chains?

If you clean and lube them as regularly as an non sealed chain you will most likely just screw them up and destroy the seal... Then the dirt and moisture get in, and the remains of the seal keeps them in... Clean it and lube it at reasonable intervals and it will outlast a non-sealed chain...

On clip vs staked master... both has it's uses, so does, sealed and none sealed... a non-sealed has less friction and has it's place on a track bike... On a roadbike that see some miles... Use a sealed...

And yeah, the argument on quality is also a flawed one... Because I guess there is good and bad non-sealed and only one quality of sealed ones?! Buy a good quality sealed chain and use it right and it will outlast a non-sealed... period... I won't budge on that point...

BTW, the difference in X ring vs O ring is nigh on bullshit... The seal is there and does it's work... what shape and how many flaps it has is less important...

Again... Use stuff right and they work... misuse them and they fail...