My Journey Into the Heart of The VTR
02-07-2015, 06:53 PM
#33
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Not what you want to hear, but for me,,, that case is junk. You will not have the correct jurnal size and support for a new bearing. Will it start and run? yes, all other things being the same.
Will that one crank journal support the crank as well as it should? NO it will not. That damage will cause the journal to be out of round. even if you get a new bearing shell of a size that allows for correct clearance in one spot, it will be off (loose) someplace else.
The case can be repaired with welding and line boring, but it's not worth the cost seeing as good used cases are available.
02-07-2015, 09:44 PM
#34
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Seems you have made up your mind already,,,so not sure if you were just telling us that or looking for opinions.
Not what you want to hear, but for me,,, that case is junk. You will not have the correct jurnal size and support for a new bearing. Will it start and run? yes, all other things being the same.
Will that one crank journal support the crank as well as it should? NO it will not. That damage will cause the journal to be out of round. even if you get a new bearing shell of a size that allows for correct clearance in one spot, it will be off (loose) someplace else.
The case can be repaired with welding and line boring, but it's not worth the cost seeing as good used cases are available.
Not what you want to hear, but for me,,, that case is junk. You will not have the correct jurnal size and support for a new bearing. Will it start and run? yes, all other things being the same.
Will that one crank journal support the crank as well as it should? NO it will not. That damage will cause the journal to be out of round. even if you get a new bearing shell of a size that allows for correct clearance in one spot, it will be off (loose) someplace else.
The case can be repaired with welding and line boring, but it's not worth the cost seeing as good used cases are available.
02-09-2015, 09:22 AM
#36
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I have wrestled with the issue of the damaged main bearing. I did not want to get this far into it and I did not want to have to replace the cases but in the end I know, deep down in my soul, I have no choice. If I am going to ride the bike (and I plan on doing just that) and if I am going to feel comfortable about its health, then I need a good solid base for the bearings. The indention is at least .001" maybe more and I think the worst issue is that it has cut a slight oval in the case. The damage is really slight and ridden with care I am sure the engine would live but I would be forever worried about it (I am a cranked up worrier after all) and I would never feel comfortable running it hard or selling it along to someone else.
I have a good set of cases and the matching pistons coming from a seller on ebay. (It's the same seller that sold me the crank and rods so I am in essence building his engine.) It will set my time line back a bit as I will have to reevaluate my bearing order after I examine the case for the code letters.
On reflection, I went back to the seller and looked up the oil pump. I spent an additional $25 and got that too. I'll just make a clean sweep and replace my engine one piece at a time! The seller claims that this engine only had 9K miles on it.
I have a good set of cases and the matching pistons coming from a seller on ebay. (It's the same seller that sold me the crank and rods so I am in essence building his engine.) It will set my time line back a bit as I will have to reevaluate my bearing order after I examine the case for the code letters.
On reflection, I went back to the seller and looked up the oil pump. I spent an additional $25 and got that too. I'll just make a clean sweep and replace my engine one piece at a time! The seller claims that this engine only had 9K miles on it.
Last edited by Big_Jim59; 02-09-2015 at 09:57 AM.
02-09-2015, 11:44 AM
#37
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I have wrestled with the issue of the damaged main bearing. I did not want to get this far into it and I did not want to have to replace the cases but in the end I know, deep down in my soul, I have no choice. If I am going to ride the bike (and I plan on doing just that) and if I am going to feel comfortable about its health, then I need a good solid base for the bearings. The indention is at least .001" maybe more and I think the worst issue is that it has cut a slight oval in the case. The damage is really slight and ridden with care I am sure the engine would live but I would be forever worried about it (I am a cranked up worrier after all) and I would never feel comfortable running it hard or selling it along to someone else.
I have a good set of cases and the matching pistons coming from a seller on ebay. (It's the same seller that sold me the crank and rods so I am in essence building his engine.) It will set my time line back a bit as I will have to reevaluate my bearing order after I examine the case for the code letters.
On reflection, I went back to the seller and looked up the oil pump. I spent an additional $25 and got that too. I'll just make a clean sweep and replace my engine one piece at a time! The seller claims that this engine only had 9K miles on it.
I have a good set of cases and the matching pistons coming from a seller on ebay. (It's the same seller that sold me the crank and rods so I am in essence building his engine.) It will set my time line back a bit as I will have to reevaluate my bearing order after I examine the case for the code letters.
On reflection, I went back to the seller and looked up the oil pump. I spent an additional $25 and got that too. I'll just make a clean sweep and replace my engine one piece at a time! The seller claims that this engine only had 9K miles on it.
As I was told many years ago when i got my first job at a Speed and Marine shop ... "Do it right once.. People say they do not have the time and money to build it right the first time, but always have the time and money to build it a second time.
02-13-2015, 04:36 PM
#38
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My eBay cases were dropped of yesterday by the UPS guy. I didn't expect them so soon. I unpacked the box and laid out two pistons, top and bottom case, oil pump and a bag of related bolts.
I set up a special work table and set to cleaning and inspecting the cases. The first thing I noticed was a liberal spread of silicon sealer on the clutch cover side and the flywheel cover side. When I scraped that off I noticed a second layer of hard Permitex style sealer.
I started testing all the tapped holes with the proper sized bolt and found a broken bolt on the clutch cover side. I drilled it out and tapped it for a Helicoil. I flipped the case and started testing on the flywheel side and there was another twisted off bolt. This goes hand in hand with all the goop and sealer I am scraping off. I guess it's way too much trouble to replace a leaking gasket. Just torque the bolt until it snaps!
The first bolt required drilling out and I used my last M6 Helicoil on it. The second bolt I managed to get the drill started straight and with the help of an Easyout I managed to pull the offending bolt without damage to the threads. I am a lucky guy!
I set up a special work table and set to cleaning and inspecting the cases. The first thing I noticed was a liberal spread of silicon sealer on the clutch cover side and the flywheel cover side. When I scraped that off I noticed a second layer of hard Permitex style sealer.
I started testing all the tapped holes with the proper sized bolt and found a broken bolt on the clutch cover side. I drilled it out and tapped it for a Helicoil. I flipped the case and started testing on the flywheel side and there was another twisted off bolt. This goes hand in hand with all the goop and sealer I am scraping off. I guess it's way too much trouble to replace a leaking gasket. Just torque the bolt until it snaps!
The first bolt required drilling out and I used my last M6 Helicoil on it. The second bolt I managed to get the drill started straight and with the help of an Easyout I managed to pull the offending bolt without damage to the threads. I am a lucky guy!
02-14-2015, 03:35 PM
#41
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Easyouts are all luck. I could just have easily snapped it off in the case. You should have seen the other hole I butchered and that required a Helicoil. It was a mess.
The parts are in so now I begin the build in earnest.
Last edited by Big_Jim59; 02-14-2015 at 03:38 PM.
02-15-2015, 09:06 AM
#42
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I got out this morning and finished scraping old gasket off the mating surfaces. I checked bolt holes again and found two that were pretty much plugged up with silicon sealer. I chased the threads with the appropriate tap and they are now good to go. I also hit the cylinders a lick with the hone. I just wanted to rough them up a little and get them ready for the rings.
Then it was off to the car wash to spend a few quarters washing down the case with hot soapy water followed by a clear water rinse. Back in the shop I cleaned my assembly table. I put the washed cases on the floor and blew the water out of holes and passage with compressed air. It is now sitting for a while. I am letting the cylinder bores dry and rust up a bit. The rust just proves that the cylinders are oil free which is what I am after.
So, I getall set to get after it. I have my cases clean, my work table clean and everything is ready for assembly. I open my parts bag to find one left rod bearing shell, one right rod bearing shell and a third rod bearing shell that doesn't go to anything. I am also missing three of the four new rod cap bolts I need. I am dead in the water until a new shipment of parts arrives.
I did assemble the cases with the crank and the new main bearings. I checked ‘em with Plastiguage and they are well within the wear tolerances. Then I oiled up the bearings and installed the crank to give it a spin and it’s so smooth and silky! It wouldn’t ever turn by hand before. It’s going to be good. I just gotta have patience.
Then it was off to the car wash to spend a few quarters washing down the case with hot soapy water followed by a clear water rinse. Back in the shop I cleaned my assembly table. I put the washed cases on the floor and blew the water out of holes and passage with compressed air. It is now sitting for a while. I am letting the cylinder bores dry and rust up a bit. The rust just proves that the cylinders are oil free which is what I am after.
So, I getall set to get after it. I have my cases clean, my work table clean and everything is ready for assembly. I open my parts bag to find one left rod bearing shell, one right rod bearing shell and a third rod bearing shell that doesn't go to anything. I am also missing three of the four new rod cap bolts I need. I am dead in the water until a new shipment of parts arrives.
I did assemble the cases with the crank and the new main bearings. I checked ‘em with Plastiguage and they are well within the wear tolerances. Then I oiled up the bearings and installed the crank to give it a spin and it’s so smooth and silky! It wouldn’t ever turn by hand before. It’s going to be good. I just gotta have patience.
Last edited by Big_Jim59; 02-15-2015 at 03:27 PM.
02-28-2015, 05:49 PM
#44
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The parts were all in, the snow was on the ground, there was rain and freezing rain all day and it was a perfect time to be in the shop working on a motorcycle to ride in the spring. The first thing I did was to fit the new rode bearings and check the clearance with plastigage. (They are within spec.) I then fit the rods to the pistons and installed the rings, staggered the ring gaps and banged the pistons into their respective holes. I used a nifty (and cheap) ring compressor that was little more than a ring of corrugated metal and a hand clamp to squeeze it all together. It worked great. I wrapped the big end with a shop towel to keep it from banging into the cylinder wall or anything else. I bolted the big ends to the crank and torqued the one-use-only bolts to 21 foot pounds. I had to disassemble and re-assembe the shift mechanism from the old case to the new one. That done I spread Yamabond (Sorry, no Hondabond on hand) on the sealing surfaces and installed the bottom case. This was my biggest concern, getting the shifting forks to align but I shouldn't have worried. It went back together perfectly. Once I got all the bolts in and everything torqued down I checked the transmission and it shifted through all the gear and the crank can be turned by a strong hand. I used an assembly lube with graphite on all the bearing surfaces. I finished off the day by mounting the brackets that hold the rear suspension linkage on the rear of the now assembled engine. I would keep going but I am tired and I don't want to rush things.
02-28-2015, 09:21 PM
#47
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I can't believe it was 60 degrees just a few days ago and now I am worried about my pipes bursting and everything is solid ice. I was driving around with the car window down a few days ago.
Last edited by Big_Jim59; 02-28-2015 at 09:38 PM.
02-28-2015, 09:24 PM
#48
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Yeah, and now the NE has another snow coming! Enough already!
Here in NYC we dont deserve it. I mean Boston I can see getting burried after cheating their way to a superbowl win, but we just dont deserve it!
Here in NYC we dont deserve it. I mean Boston I can see getting burried after cheating their way to a superbowl win, but we just dont deserve it!
03-01-2015, 06:10 AM
#49
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Big Jim, Nice work.
Smokin, have you seen the forecast for Boston next year. They say we will get over 150" of snow beginning Monday after the Superbowl.
03-07-2015, 05:13 PM
#50
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It turned out to be a nice day (above freezing) and I decided to spend the day in the shop. I installed the heads, timed the cams and got the valve covers on, took a break and then, with the combination of a floor jack and the chain hoist on the pool ladder I managed to get the big lump back in the frame. I got the engine nestled back in it's frame with minimal fuss I only hope to got the torques write on the adjusters and castle nuts.
03-07-2015, 06:03 PM
#52
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Great news, Jim. I'm just worried that after you've expended all this effort getting her fixed and back on the road, you won't have the energy left for all the obligatory modding.
Aw, who am I kidding? I'm sure you'll be fine.
Aw, who am I kidding? I'm sure you'll be fine.
03-08-2015, 04:58 PM
#53
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I have been puttering round the shop, cleaning, putting parts in order and generally planning my next move.
I have been trying to clean the pan but that’s been a real nasty job. It is full of unspeakable sludge. At first I tried carb cleaner but that wasn’t doing the trick so, last night I had an epiphany, diesel. Yep, I let the oil pickup and the pan soak in diesel fuel and it is coming clean. I still have to clean and check the oil pressure valve and reassemble the pan seals and such.
I also greased the shock linkage bearings and got them ready to reinstall.
I also cleaned out the coolant bottle and washed its greasy exterior.There is a host of little stuff that needs to be done. It is time consuming and doesn't have the dramatic effect of an engine install but it is all necessary.
I have been trying to clean the pan but that’s been a real nasty job. It is full of unspeakable sludge. At first I tried carb cleaner but that wasn’t doing the trick so, last night I had an epiphany, diesel. Yep, I let the oil pickup and the pan soak in diesel fuel and it is coming clean. I still have to clean and check the oil pressure valve and reassemble the pan seals and such.
I also greased the shock linkage bearings and got them ready to reinstall.
I also cleaned out the coolant bottle and washed its greasy exterior.There is a host of little stuff that needs to be done. It is time consuming and doesn't have the dramatic effect of an engine install but it is all necessary.
03-08-2015, 07:41 PM
#54
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Sounds like you need a parts washer. I purchased one similar to this one and can't imagine my shop without one. It comes in VERY handy for many projects. You could also get away with one smaller, cheaper and without legs, if you have the room on your work bench.
Man, I know the feeling of doing all the little things from here on out to get the bike back together. I was in the same position with my basketcase.
Man, I know the feeling of doing all the little things from here on out to get the bike back together. I was in the same position with my basketcase.
03-08-2015, 08:17 PM
#55
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Sounds like you need a parts washer. I purchased one similar to this one and can't imagine my shop without one. It comes in VERY handy for many projects. You could also get away with one smaller, cheaper and without legs, if you have the room on your work bench.
Man, I know the feeling of doing all the little things from here on out to get the bike back together. I was in the same position with my basketcase.
Man, I know the feeling of doing all the little things from here on out to get the bike back together. I was in the same position with my basketcase.
My next project is someting I have been putting off because I am lazy and because of the complexity. I need to put a thermostat in my VFR. The thermostat is located in the V of the block under the throttle bodies. I was dragging my feet on this but after the VTR project it seems like child's play by comparison.
03-12-2015, 06:18 PM
#58
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I have been pondering the question of why. Why did this VTR engine I am working on have bearing failure? I am leaning toward a low oil event of some kind. I have included the picture below that shows the damage initiated from left to right. Since the rear rod bearing was missing I was not able to examine that but from the shape of the crank throw I would say it was in a poor a shape as the left crank bearing. I am still not able to fully enplane why the cams and cam bearings escaped serious damage. I wish I knew more about the real history of the bike. Even the story I got from the previous owner (that he actually rode the bike) is suspicious to me. There is no way that bike just started to make noise and there is no way he rode it, even for the short distance he said, without it having a cataclysmic failure.
I have not had a chance to do much more than clean a few parts since last Saturday. Life and responsibilities have gotten in the way and something else. I spent all of last Saturday methodically working, not rushing but steedly working to get the engine together and back in the bike. I don't know what I did but my right foor is swolen and hurts like hell. It has been like this all week and it has made it hard to stand much less walk around the shop. Getting old sucks I guess.
I have not had a chance to do much more than clean a few parts since last Saturday. Life and responsibilities have gotten in the way and something else. I spent all of last Saturday methodically working, not rushing but steedly working to get the engine together and back in the bike. I don't know what I did but my right foor is swolen and hurts like hell. It has been like this all week and it has made it hard to stand much less walk around the shop. Getting old sucks I guess.
Last edited by Big_Jim59; 03-12-2015 at 08:40 PM.
03-12-2015, 08:39 PM
#60
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I have not pulled the oil pump apart opting instead to purchase the one that was installed with the cases and crank I bought. (Might as well make it a full set.) By the "feel" of it I would say it was OK and due to it's construction I believe it could be pretty far gone and still pump the requisite volume required.
