Mcct help/questions
11-10-2012, 10:05 PM
#1
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Mcct help/questions
Ok So i got my ape mccts the other day. I started tearing down the bike. Gas tank, airbox, etc. I followed the instructions on calitoz mcct sticky. I removed the rear valve cover as this is the first time working with cams. I used a wrench and lined up rt on the mark so the lobes were off the valves. I then zip tied the cam chain to the cam gears as a safety precaution. My bike is a 2000 and I don't believe the ccts were ever changed. After zip tieing them I undid the bolts of the cct and gave it a small hit with my wrench to break the seal as its been on there for 43k miles. I didn't hear any clicking but I did notice the cam chain slacked between the two cam gears. I installed the new gasket and APE mcct and slowly hand tightened. The slack then came out of the chain between the two cam gears. My question is, do you think the timing is still ok even though it slacked? And by adding the tension do you think the timing is correct? Should I check the timing again as the chain on the drive might have slipped? Thank you in advance. Aloha
11-10-2012, 10:33 PM
#2
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Also upon changing the front cct. I slowly backed out the bolts and broke the seal without removing the bolts completely. I slowly backed each one out one at a time. Of course after I lined up ft with the mark on the timing mark. Upon finally removing the bolts all the way and starting to lift out the old cct completely I heard a dreaded click. UGH
11-10-2012, 10:45 PM
#4
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Ok so the back should be fine it wasn't slacked alot. The front, no I didn't zip tie the front. In order to get to the front valve cover I need to remove the front fairing and the radiator correct?
11-10-2012, 10:56 PM
#5
the boss
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well,i have done it so many times,i dont anymore,but if its your first time,i would take the body off so you can get a clear view of the cams.
the radiator doesnt have to come off,just take the bolts out so you can move it around a bit.
it will be tricky getting those top bolts off the valve cover,but can be done with a extension and a swivel.
make sure to have a straight edge too to make sure you can figure out which way to turn the cam.most likely,it will be the intake cam that is out of time.
you will be able to just take the cct all the way out and turn the cam,there should be enough slack to turn it carefully.
take both spark plugs out so you can spin the motor freely.just dont forget too put the rubber boots back in place so you wont drop anything in there by mistake.
the radiator doesnt have to come off,just take the bolts out so you can move it around a bit.
it will be tricky getting those top bolts off the valve cover,but can be done with a extension and a swivel.
make sure to have a straight edge too to make sure you can figure out which way to turn the cam.most likely,it will be the intake cam that is out of time.
you will be able to just take the cct all the way out and turn the cam,there should be enough slack to turn it carefully.
take both spark plugs out so you can spin the motor freely.just dont forget too put the rubber boots back in place so you wont drop anything in there by mistake.
11-11-2012, 05:48 AM
#8
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Ok so after screwing up multiple times I believe I have it correct. I changed the cct on the exhaust cycle big mistake. It jumped some teeth so I did the best I could to correct it with in 2-3 teeth. Installed the new mcct. Spun the crank until I hit TDC, readjusted those 2-3 teeth. Spun it couple more times, checked adjusted and spun it a few more turns to get any slack out of it. Checked the marks with a ruler. Spun it once more. Pretty dead on. Perhaps I missed a tooth this is my first time dealing with cams so. But it looked identical to the rear which didn't lose its timing because of the zip ties. Its now 3:40am and I have been working on it since 7pm. I reinstalled the radiators need new fluid but ill do that tommorrow. Put the oil cooler back. My question now is i hand tightened the chains and did 1/4 turn back. Now to fine tune I read that the engine should be running and warmed up. Ok how do you run the motor with no airbox or gas tank on? The rear is no problem but the front deffinetly has its challenges. I will be interested to hear anyones suggestions. It was a pain in the *** experience for sure but a good learning one hopefully nothing is smashed and the timing is dead on.
11-11-2012, 09:38 AM
#10
the boss
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you would put everything back together to run it.it will take a little work,but if you have long and small enought tools,you can get it in there too adjust,you will have to snake it thru the left side of the frame.
you will be able to see it,the rad hose is in the way,but there is enough room too get in there and loosen or tighten the cct.
we all had to do that,it can be done.
even tho you had gloves on,i dont think you got it too much tighter.you should be ok.you will know when you start it.
just make sure you spin it by hand once or twice more slowly too make sure it all lines up.
did you put sealant on the rear cct nut and bolt,if not,i would do that or it will leak.
hope this helps some.
you will be able to see it,the rad hose is in the way,but there is enough room too get in there and loosen or tighten the cct.
we all had to do that,it can be done.
even tho you had gloves on,i dont think you got it too much tighter.you should be ok.you will know when you start it.
just make sure you spin it by hand once or twice more slowly too make sure it all lines up.
did you put sealant on the rear cct nut and bolt,if not,i would do that or it will leak.
hope this helps some.
11-11-2012, 10:22 AM
#11
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Hi saige, So I double checked and triple checked the rear timing. I put some blue loctite on the mcct and tightened it, moved it back 1/4 turn and then locked the loc nut. I checked the front cam 3 times. I moved the came back a notch, forward a notch they line up as good as they can if i move it 1 tooth back the fi is under the cover and if i move it forward 1 its way above. Even with the straight edge they were maybe a 1/2 mm off. I then backed out the mcct a little applied some more loctite handtightend as hard as i could back 1/4 turn and locked the nut. Put the airbox on, put the tank on, filled the radiator and started it. I didn't hear any clinking(too loose) or any grinding(too tight) I didn't rev it just idled it for a bit. As I was curious if I needed to make any adjustments i would have to take it all apart again. Any suggestions from this point you can give me?
11-11-2012, 10:35 AM
#12
the boss
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well,from what you said so far,it sounds good.
i would let it run and warm up,and just do some light revs as it gets hotter just too see if it makes any kind of noises.
you may have got it exactly on point.if timing was wrong,you would know by now.
i say let it warm up,make sure everything is warmed up,and take it for a gentle ride at first to make sure,than if you are comfortable,rip the **** out of it :-O lol
i would let it run and warm up,and just do some light revs as it gets hotter just too see if it makes any kind of noises.
you may have got it exactly on point.if timing was wrong,you would know by now.
i say let it warm up,make sure everything is warmed up,and take it for a gentle ride at first to make sure,than if you are comfortable,rip the **** out of it :-O lol
11-11-2012, 10:40 AM
#13
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Hahaha ok so after its warmed up, rev lightly and see if any new sounds appear. Reading other posts they don't recommend backing it off and then moving it forward as its easier to skip. I imagine if its not grinding or clinking i should be close to the sweet spot. If the timing was wrong by a tooth what might I notice just so I know what to look for I read about after 5k losing power and running like crap. If I smashed the valves I would be hearing a knock? and is there anything else I should be watching/listening for?
11-11-2012, 11:26 AM
#14
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Jake, I just got up. Everything sounds good. Congrats for keeping at it. Saige helped
a lot. Your valves should be o.k. Main thing you checked for interference and adjusted before you started it up. You loctited everything, you should be good to go. I did the same basic adjust and have yet to have to readjust yet(about 600 miles).
Go out and Have fun, nice day today-long weekend(for some-got to go to work).
Ride Well...
a lot. Your valves should be o.k. Main thing you checked for interference and adjusted before you started it up. You loctited everything, you should be good to go. I did the same basic adjust and have yet to have to readjust yet(about 600 miles).
Go out and Have fun, nice day today-long weekend(for some-got to go to work).
Ride Well...
11-11-2012, 01:06 PM
#15
the boss
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Hahaha ok so after its warmed up, rev lightly and see if any new sounds appear. Reading other posts they don't recommend backing it off and then moving it forward as its easier to skip. I imagine if its not grinding or clinking i should be close to the sweet spot. If the timing was wrong by a tooth what might I notice just so I know what to look for I read about after 5k losing power and running like crap. If I smashed the valves I would be hearing a knock? and is there anything else I should be watching/listening for?
i dont think the valve would hit the piston being one tooth off,i may be wrong on that,hopefully someone knows better that can answer that.
but if it was 2 teeth,well,i think you would be starting a new thread by now
but from what everything sounds like,you just might have hit the sweet spot.just try and make sure its not to tight on both heads,as this will cause the motor to strain some,drop idle and ruin the cam chain guides.
if it was me,i would maybe check to make sure its not too tight while its hot.
the back one is easy,the front one is the pain,but thats up too you,you would kinda be able to tell the difference when you test ride the bike.it should feel near the same with the new cct's.
otherwise,enjoy
11-11-2012, 09:46 PM
#16
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Ok So I took everything apart again because the idle is weird now. It will idle nicely then once its warmed up it will slow down and then die. But its not a constant slow down it will rev up, rev down, rev up then die. Also there is a weird vaccum noise i am hearing. Its almost like a rythmic clicking. I listened to the heads with a bar and its not the same sound I hear outside. I listened to the cct i can hear the chain running smoothly. One thing that perplexed me and my friend was we checked the rear timing and it was dead on. checked the front and its a half a mm off. I moved a tooth forward and back. and it never really lines up. I'm wondering if the chain is slacked from the 43k miles put on it previous. But the idle is weird it doesnt seem mechanical as that would be constant or so i would think, instead it starts good runs then slows then up then down then up also the clicking vaccum sound. I checked the head covers. I'm about rdy to take it to an actual mechanic because I am just all out of ideas.
11-11-2012, 09:59 PM
#17
the boss
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did you check to make sure that all vacuum lines were hooked up in the right places.
when you put the carbs on,did you press them all the way in and down,this can cause what you are saying.
did you ever do a pair removal on the bike,if not,is everything hooked up correctly.
did you hook up the vacuum line going from the tank too the rear head,that is the pvlir.
when ever you take the carbs off,you need to make sure the throttle lines are hooked correctly and are free from any tangles.
did you sync the carbs,you should do this to everytime the carbs come off.
there is a lot too look for,but im sure we will get it figured out.
once you look thru,let me know your findings.
when you put the carbs on,did you press them all the way in and down,this can cause what you are saying.
did you ever do a pair removal on the bike,if not,is everything hooked up correctly.
did you hook up the vacuum line going from the tank too the rear head,that is the pvlir.
when ever you take the carbs off,you need to make sure the throttle lines are hooked correctly and are free from any tangles.
did you sync the carbs,you should do this to everytime the carbs come off.
there is a lot too look for,but im sure we will get it figured out.
once you look thru,let me know your findings.
11-11-2012, 10:05 PM
#19
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Thanks for the reply sage. I didn't take off the carbs during the install of the cct. So I didn't touch any of those hoses. I did check the hoses that I took off on the airbox and on the tank. Those are all in the correct place. Im uploading a video now of the bike running hopefully you can hear it. Also the bike was warm I started it after it died and it sounds like its trying to backfire. I'm wondering if somehow the front valves are bent though when I listen to the head I can't hear any clinking or sticking just the smooth running of the cam chain. Also is sportatic I would expect a smashed valve to be very persistant.
11-11-2012, 10:19 PM
#21
the boss
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did it ever make that ticking noise before,seems to me its a sticky valve.
if you never touched the carbs,than you should be ok on that.
what about the spark plugs,what kind are in there and did you try cleaning or gapping them,or both,and are you sure the plugs went all the way down in the hole and not cross threaded.
and have you tried re-adjusting the cct's,just to see if it makes a difference.i know to tght and it will cause idle flutters.
if you never touched the carbs,than you should be ok on that.
what about the spark plugs,what kind are in there and did you try cleaning or gapping them,or both,and are you sure the plugs went all the way down in the hole and not cross threaded.
and have you tried re-adjusting the cct's,just to see if it makes a difference.i know to tght and it will cause idle flutters.
11-11-2012, 10:30 PM
#22
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The ticking sounds is wierd I listened to the head and its not coming from there it seems to be coming from the rear near the exhaust. I took the valve cover off once again and checked the timing it seems to be spot on. I doubt I smashed them as they were the ones that didin't skip. Also they line up perfectly unlike the front. The ticking is non exhistant when the motor is cold however which makes me wonder WTF lol
11-11-2012, 10:31 PM
#23
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Also I ended up not able to remove the spark plugs prior to the install because I didn't have the correct socket I ended up doing the install with the spark plugs in place which was interesting.
11-11-2012, 10:45 PM
#24
the boss
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hmmmmmmm that is quite odd,have you tried to back out the rear cct a tiny bit at a time to see if the ticking fades.
im really thinking that is gonna be a part of it or it is it.
this should be done while warmed up.
im really thinking that is gonna be a part of it or it is it.
this should be done while warmed up.
11-11-2012, 10:47 PM
#25
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I just backed out the rear cct until i heard a rattling noise, tightened it till it stops and still was ticking. Could my timing be off on the front because of chain wear and the marks are actually a tooth off. Whats the best way to check by lobes wether or not its dead on. I cracked the crank with the valve cover off on the front and they look dead on but I'm not a mechanic. But if that was the case it would be less sporatic yes? Could this be a bad vaccum valve that has gone bad for some reason? I'm puzzled about rdy to load in on a trailer lol
11-11-2012, 10:49 PM
#26
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Also when I place a bar on the head and listen I don't hear the same ticking just the chain gliding. Listed to both heads nothing like the sound coming from the rear and as I'm aware theres no vaccum there thought it might be an exhaust leak but it goes in and out when its cold its not there when its warm it is and when its reved up a bit it disapears
11-11-2012, 11:12 PM
#27
the boss
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well,if youre sure its not exhaust leak,and youre not hearing the ticking from the rear.i would think it could be coming from the front.
i would spin the motor and look for tdc,and recheck the front timing,when you had the mishap on the front cam,did you keep spinning the cams any which way too get it back into time.if you did do the exhaust verses the intake,and than corrected your mistake,i think this is where the problem may lay,only one of the cams would come out of timing,you would just put the mark where it needs to be for the front head and than figure out which cam is out.
so you just might have to go back in and reset it too where it needs to be.
if you have the manual,you will have to go into it to get the exact details of where it is suppose to be when you spin the motor,it will be much easier too take the plugs out and put the bike in 6th gear.will be able to spin it with tire.
i would spin the motor and look for tdc,and recheck the front timing,when you had the mishap on the front cam,did you keep spinning the cams any which way too get it back into time.if you did do the exhaust verses the intake,and than corrected your mistake,i think this is where the problem may lay,only one of the cams would come out of timing,you would just put the mark where it needs to be for the front head and than figure out which cam is out.
so you just might have to go back in and reset it too where it needs to be.
if you have the manual,you will have to go into it to get the exact details of where it is suppose to be when you spin the motor,it will be much easier too take the plugs out and put the bike in 6th gear.will be able to spin it with tire.
11-11-2012, 11:17 PM
#28
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Thanks saige what happened with the front was both cames actually jumped. I wasn't in the compression tdc. I had to align the front to the mark to the head. Then i slacked and jumped the rear a to get back within a tooth or two. Tighten the the tensioner and spun it to tdc. Moved the cam towards the back to to where it was supposed to be however its got 43k miles so the marks might not be acurate. Is there a better way than just eyeballing the lobes to tell wether they are where they are supposed to be.
11-11-2012, 11:20 PM
#29
the boss
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you would need a straight edge to see it better.here is a link to another member who had similar problems.it has some pics and such.its some reading,but it might give a better understanding.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ke-crap-29136/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ke-crap-29136/
