Issues
04-12-2010, 06:27 PM
#1
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SuperSport
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 684
Issues
Bike - 1998 with 45,000 miles, Mig exhaust on TBR headers, stock carb jetting.
Over the last few weeks my bike has been getting harder to start when cold. I would always get it to turn over, But it took 3-4 times while messing with different choke/throttle positions. Changed the plus, as it was time anyway. Plugs were a bit white, as expected with the exhaust and no rejetting. This didnt help the starting issues but it did make it run smoother. Also dumped in a little sea foam in the tank at the time.
I was told by the previous owner that the carbs havent been synced in about a year, so i thought i would do that. This is were more problem arised. The plug in the front cylinder vacuum port was stripped and had to be drilled out. In order to get a drill in the carbs had to come off. Got the plug out and everything put back together. Synced the carbs at idle, and check it at about 4k rpm also, which was steady.
Test ride. Bogging/sputtering at about 5k rpm, not able to rev past 6k. Back in the garage found the the choke cable had gotten pinched when everything was put back together. Got that fixed and went back out. Same thing, but not as severe, was able to rev higher. Its almost like its running itself out of fuel. You can whack open the throttle and it would perform as normal, do it again and it boggs down. It only does this under load, if you just have it in neutral it'll pop up to 9k no problems. And strangely, in those little times it wasnt sputtering, the bike felt a lot more powerful than before.
So, even though we checked out the hoses and cables, it is possible we missed something, maybe we didnt fix the choke cable correctly? Maybe some dirt got knocked loose when i took the carbs off the first time clogging something up? Any ideas?
I was thinking the next step would be to pull the carbs and clean them. Never done this before but i've got the service manual and ive pulled the tank and airbox so many time now i think i can do it in my sleep. How hard could it be.
Over the last few weeks my bike has been getting harder to start when cold. I would always get it to turn over, But it took 3-4 times while messing with different choke/throttle positions. Changed the plus, as it was time anyway. Plugs were a bit white, as expected with the exhaust and no rejetting. This didnt help the starting issues but it did make it run smoother. Also dumped in a little sea foam in the tank at the time.
I was told by the previous owner that the carbs havent been synced in about a year, so i thought i would do that. This is were more problem arised. The plug in the front cylinder vacuum port was stripped and had to be drilled out. In order to get a drill in the carbs had to come off. Got the plug out and everything put back together. Synced the carbs at idle, and check it at about 4k rpm also, which was steady.
Test ride. Bogging/sputtering at about 5k rpm, not able to rev past 6k. Back in the garage found the the choke cable had gotten pinched when everything was put back together. Got that fixed and went back out. Same thing, but not as severe, was able to rev higher. Its almost like its running itself out of fuel. You can whack open the throttle and it would perform as normal, do it again and it boggs down. It only does this under load, if you just have it in neutral it'll pop up to 9k no problems. And strangely, in those little times it wasnt sputtering, the bike felt a lot more powerful than before.
So, even though we checked out the hoses and cables, it is possible we missed something, maybe we didnt fix the choke cable correctly? Maybe some dirt got knocked loose when i took the carbs off the first time clogging something up? Any ideas?
I was thinking the next step would be to pull the carbs and clean them. Never done this before but i've got the service manual and ive pulled the tank and airbox so many time now i think i can do it in my sleep. How hard could it be.
Last edited by jay956; 04-12-2010 at 06:30 PM.
04-12-2010, 06:59 PM
#4
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 3,451
If it was running okay before, clean the carbs. A little over a month ago, my bike dropped a cylinder in the middle of a ride. I limped it home on #1 cylinder, checked the spark then figured it had to be the carb. My bike never sits more than 1 week without being ridden (except right now, after I got rear ended 3 weeks ago), and #2 carb slow (pilot) jet was completely clogged. I had to soak the slow jet for about 1/2 hour to clean it out.
Pull your carbs, disassemble and clean using carb spray and compressed air, if possible, to blow out all the jets and passageways. Mine ran like a champ for 2 weeks after cleaning before I got hit. The stock slow jets are like pin holes.
Over 38,000 miles on my '05.
Pull your carbs, disassemble and clean using carb spray and compressed air, if possible, to blow out all the jets and passageways. Mine ran like a champ for 2 weeks after cleaning before I got hit. The stock slow jets are like pin holes.
Over 38,000 miles on my '05.
04-12-2010, 07:03 PM
#5
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SuperSport
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 642
I double checked mine the first time I had PVLIR and I still had it wrong. Do a search to see pictures, but the vent-line goes sideways, not straight down.
04-12-2010, 07:46 PM
#9
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SuperSport
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Location: Richmond, VA
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LOL thats great. that would be great if it was as simple as that. i'd be even more pissed off at myself if it was though, since i missed a track day because of this.
although it probably woulnt be a bad idea to clean the carbs up. as far as me and the previous owner know, they have never been cleaned.
although it probably woulnt be a bad idea to clean the carbs up. as far as me and the previous owner know, they have never been cleaned.
04-18-2010, 01:27 PM
#10
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OK so no PVLIR, everything is where it should be. choke cable for the rear was routed wrong, but it didnt feel like there was any tension put on it from this. i corrected it anyway. i noticed that the caps on the PAIR plate things were dried out and cracked. didnt have much time to work on it today so i just wrapped them in some tape. took it down the street and back, its better, the surging is still there though.
could the PAIR caps have anything to do with it?
i forgot to mention that when hard starting issue started, i would usually get a LOUD backfire right before the bike started.
ive got parts coming to rebuild the carbs. maybe i should rebuild the petcock while im at it?
could the PAIR caps have anything to do with it?
i forgot to mention that when hard starting issue started, i would usually get a LOUD backfire right before the bike started.
ive got parts coming to rebuild the carbs. maybe i should rebuild the petcock while im at it?
04-18-2010, 07:20 PM
#12
pragmatic anarchist
Superstock
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 380
How's it spin on startup? I'm using my sons spare battery and it has been deep cycled (run down til dead) too many times. When it's weak and I try to start up I get a slow spin and then backfire from fuel in the cyl. Works great when hot or after a recent long speed run. Only gives me **** when it sits for a few days or I'm ****** around with **** with the lights on for too long, Starts and runs beautiful after less than a minute on the charger, but you don't get much reserve with a lead acid battery and two big *** barrels. (MIS)Fires like my old Volvo when the point gap was too small!
04-19-2010, 02:28 AM
#13
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NY State
Posts: 667
...
could the PAIR caps have anything to do with it?
i forgot to mention that when hard starting issue started, i would usually get a LOUD backfire right before the bike started.
ive got parts coming to rebuild the carbs. maybe i should rebuild the petcock while im at it?
could the PAIR caps have anything to do with it?
i forgot to mention that when hard starting issue started, i would usually get a LOUD backfire right before the bike started.
ive got parts coming to rebuild the carbs. maybe i should rebuild the petcock while im at it?
Set your TPS as in the KB, big improvement for me - VERY easy to do and free (except for two allen screws).
It does sound like your carbs could use a cleaning and perhaps a rejet, not sure, but if I had to bet... An easy fix, but not the best way, would be to pour some Seafoam in your gastank and run through a tank of gas. Nothing beats a proper cleaning, but if Seafoam works, you can get to the track this weekend.
If nothing else fixes the problem, check your timing. JB
04-19-2010, 03:15 AM
#14
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: MN
Posts: 1,548
from your original post your bogging and mid range poor running under load are new. go back to point of last human intervention. you removing the carbs and drilling the port. somewhere in those two step there should be your problem. if was running right before that except poor starting. So backtracking is a good idea - you much have something not quite right during those steps assuming I'm reading your post right.
04-19-2010, 08:21 AM
#15
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SuperSport
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 684
How's it spin on startup? I'm using my sons spare battery and it has been deep cycled (run down til dead) too many times. When it's weak and I try to start up I get a slow spin and then backfire from fuel in the cyl. Works great when hot or after a recent long speed run. Only gives me **** when it sits for a few days or I'm ****** around with **** with the lights on for too long, Starts and runs beautiful after less than a minute on the charger, but you don't get much reserve with a lead acid battery and two big *** barrels. (MIS)Fires like my old Volvo when the point gap was too small!
A couple of things. I do not think that your stumbling issue is PAIR related, but I strongly suggest disabling the PAIR system - see KB, VERY easy do to, and cheap.
Set your TPS as in the KB, big improvement for me - VERY easy to do and free (except for two allen screws).
It does sound like your carbs could use a cleaning and perhaps a rejet, not sure, but if I had to bet... An easy fix, but not the best way, would be to pour some Seafoam in your gastank and run through a tank of gas. Nothing beats a proper cleaning, but if Seafoam works, you can get to the track this weekend.
If nothing else fixes the problem, check your timing. JB
Set your TPS as in the KB, big improvement for me - VERY easy to do and free (except for two allen screws).
It does sound like your carbs could use a cleaning and perhaps a rejet, not sure, but if I had to bet... An easy fix, but not the best way, would be to pour some Seafoam in your gastank and run through a tank of gas. Nothing beats a proper cleaning, but if Seafoam works, you can get to the track this weekend.
If nothing else fixes the problem, check your timing. JB
i used some seafoam 3 days before this started.
from your original post your bogging and mid range poor running under load are new. go back to point of last human intervention. you removing the carbs and drilling the port. somewhere in those two step there should be your problem. if was running right before that except poor starting. So backtracking is a good idea - you much have something not quite right during those steps assuming I'm reading your post right.
04-19-2010, 08:38 AM
#16
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Big Lick
Posts: 1,090
Jay,
given your original hard-starting problems, taking the carbs out and cleaning would probably help a lot. perhaps even a basic rebuild. If nothing else, at least you'll know your carbs will be good for the next several years.
given your original hard-starting problems, taking the carbs out and cleaning would probably help a lot. perhaps even a basic rebuild. If nothing else, at least you'll know your carbs will be good for the next several years.
04-19-2010, 05:11 PM
#17
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SuperSport
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, VA
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was going to rebuild the carbs today, but the dealer ordered the wrong parts. so now i get to wait another 4 days to see if they get it right this time.
sprayed everything with wd-40, didnt notice any charges in rpms.
got some electrical readings as per the manual
rear cap is at the upper end of spec, i ordered a new one just to be on the safe side. pulse generator is about 20 ohms over spec, but in the manual is says only "dramatic" differences are a problem. but what is a dramatic difference?
now the strange part. i took it down the street and back after i got everything hooked back up. it ran much better, only got a slight stumble twice. ran up to 90 just fine. so i guess something was loose somewhere.
sprayed everything with wd-40, didnt notice any charges in rpms.
got some electrical readings as per the manual
rear cap is at the upper end of spec, i ordered a new one just to be on the safe side. pulse generator is about 20 ohms over spec, but in the manual is says only "dramatic" differences are a problem. but what is a dramatic difference?
now the strange part. i took it down the street and back after i got everything hooked back up. it ran much better, only got a slight stumble twice. ran up to 90 just fine. so i guess something was loose somewhere.
Last edited by jay956; 04-19-2010 at 05:17 PM.
04-22-2010, 07:21 PM
#18
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SuperSport
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forgot to post this
http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...=VIDEO0005.flv
throttle was steady, is it normal for the rmps to jump around a little like that?
(sorry dont know how to rotate it)
http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...=VIDEO0005.flv
throttle was steady, is it normal for the rmps to jump around a little like that?
(sorry dont know how to rotate it)
04-26-2010, 08:47 PM
#19
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SuperSport
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found the problem, and created a new one. both pilot jets and the front main were clogged, rear main was fine. cleaned everything, and while i was putting the carbs back on the bike i broke the rear choke plunger. barely put any pressure on it and the threads just broke right off.
also found out that it was rejetted at some point. 180f 185r
also found out that it was rejetted at some point. 180f 185r
Last edited by jay956; 04-26-2010 at 09:15 PM.
04-26-2010, 10:57 PM
#20
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NY State
Posts: 667
Read this thread, you can replace those plastic fittings with brass fittings from Polaris:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...hlight=polaris
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...hlight=polaris
04-27-2010, 07:34 AM
#21
2nd mouse gets the cheese
SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
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found the problem, and created a new one. both pilot jets and the front main were clogged, rear main was fine. cleaned everything, and while i was putting the carbs back on the bike i broke the rear choke plunger. barely put any pressure on it and the threads just broke right off.
also found out that it was rejetted at some point. 180f 185r
also found out that it was rejetted at some point. 180f 185r
.So I go to drain the tank on the cb to fix a gas leak and break the fuel filter... we all do it every now and then, should be an easy fix.
04-27-2010, 08:00 AM
#22
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SuperSport
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Location: Richmond, VA
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Read this thread, you can replace those plastic fittings with brass fittings from Polaris:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...hlight=polaris
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...hlight=polaris
yeah easy fix, i'm just tired of waiting! took a week for the shop to get me the wrong parts, then another week for the right ones, now this.
05-01-2010, 06:38 PM
#23
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well its been a month since ive had a ride. and no luck today.
got everything put back together. synced the carbs (it was much easier this time). seems to be running smoother. but i still got a slight stumble, i think it was around 6-7k rpms, under acceleration. plugs looked fine, just a tad white.
not sure what i should go to next. still waiting on a new spark plug cap for the rear, that probably isnt the problem though, got a new one since there was a lot more resistance in it than the front.
i NEED to get it fixed this week. i got 5 track days scheduled this month, and on is on the 9th.
got everything put back together. synced the carbs (it was much easier this time). seems to be running smoother. but i still got a slight stumble, i think it was around 6-7k rpms, under acceleration. plugs looked fine, just a tad white.
not sure what i should go to next. still waiting on a new spark plug cap for the rear, that probably isnt the problem though, got a new one since there was a lot more resistance in it than the front.
i NEED to get it fixed this week. i got 5 track days scheduled this month, and on is on the 9th.
Last edited by jay956; 05-01-2010 at 06:40 PM.
05-02-2010, 01:33 AM
#24
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NY State
Posts: 667
I may have missed it somewhere above, but at this point I would suggest a Factory Pro 1.0 or 1.1 (Ti needles) jet kit with new pilots - ALL NEW. So many times I have had folks tell me that the carb was clean, I reclean, and sure enough it worked. If your jets were clogged, you may have internal passageways that are still clogged, really clean them out with carb cleaner and compressed air - do not get that stuff on any plastic or rubber parts. I THINK that you have a needle issue FWIW.
The Factory Pro kits are nice, give it a try (no drilling required), go 1-notch lower on the needle clip than they say. This way you are eliminating some variables.
Plug wires / caps should be replaced in pairs front and rear, replace them all with Honda stuff, with new spark plugs as well.
You will have this fixed in time! JB
The Factory Pro kits are nice, give it a try (no drilling required), go 1-notch lower on the needle clip than they say. This way you are eliminating some variables.
Plug wires / caps should be replaced in pairs front and rear, replace them all with Honda stuff, with new spark plugs as well.
You will have this fixed in time! JB
05-02-2010, 08:26 AM
#25
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SuperSport
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its very possible i misse something, it was my fist time cleaning carbs.
i actually already got a drynojet kit, it came in after i had everything put back together. does the factory pro kit come with pilots? i thought pilots only took care of the idle and low end, which is fine.
ive got today and tomorrow off so i guess its time to just pull the carbs again.
i actually already got a drynojet kit, it came in after i had everything put back together. does the factory pro kit come with pilots? i thought pilots only took care of the idle and low end, which is fine.
ive got today and tomorrow off so i guess its time to just pull the carbs again.
05-02-2010, 11:38 AM
#27
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Back Marker
Join Date: Jan 2010
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OK so no PVLIR, everything is where it should be. choke cable for the rear was routed wrong, but it didnt feel like there was any tension put on it from this. i corrected it anyway. i noticed that the caps on the PAIR plate things were dried out and cracked. didnt have much time to work on it today so i just wrapped them in some tape. took it down the street and back, its better, the surging is still there though.
could the PAIR caps have anything to do with it?
i forgot to mention that when hard starting issue started, i would usually get a LOUD backfire right before the bike started.
ive got parts coming to rebuild the carbs. maybe i should rebuild the petcock while im at it?
could the PAIR caps have anything to do with it?
i forgot to mention that when hard starting issue started, i would usually get a LOUD backfire right before the bike started.
ive got parts coming to rebuild the carbs. maybe i should rebuild the petcock while im at it?
05-02-2010, 07:02 PM
#29
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SuperSport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 684
i think its time to take it to a pro, since i dont have a lot of time left. i cleaned the carbs again today, put the dynojet jets in. followed their direction and used a 190/195. its a lot worse now. i'm wondering if it is the petcock. bigger jets need more fuel and if the petcock cant supply it then it would make it worse? or am i just rationalizing that?
