Cam chain tensioner came loose any performance mods while it's apart?
 

So I just bought my bike on Tuesday and on my way to work today the front tensioner came completely loose. Looks like who ever installed it last didn't get the bolts tight. So yes it came loose while running. It looks like the intake cam jumped about 3 teeth. I retimed it on the side of the freeway and it's still poping out the exhaust and not running on the front cyl. So I'm guessing it bent a couple valves. So my question is while I'm there is there anything that could easily be done performance wise?

Getting the valves shimmed properly (not just with the hotcams tolerances, but dead center of spec) is a great way to cheaply improve your bike. Setting up TPS while the carbs are off is another. Port the intake and exhaust (although the airflow on these bikes is pretty well designed).

Unless you're doing an expensive build with ti valves and high comp pistons, there're not a whole lot of aftermarket easy improvements do do in there ;)

What year is the bike? Older ones will improve with newer cbr600rr stick coils and a good carb cleaning.

It's a '98. By stick coils you mean ign. coils built in the caps? If so that'd be an easy enough mod anytime as you don't have to pull the engine apart to do that. I thought about porting but I don't want it to be down that long.

Looking up the valves on a Honda fische and man they are spendy! $31 intake and $56 exhaust. Are there any aftermarket options that are good for less? Also I seem to recall seeing something about aftermarket CCT's. Who makes them and where could I get them from? How much do they generally cost?

They are $23 & $41 here:
Honda, ATV Parts, Scooter Parts, Motorcycle Parts,CRF,CR,MX Parts, Goldwing parts

Last I checked CCT's from APE run about 50 bucks. But we need two. So it's about $100. There may be some deals to be found on ebay too.

Looked at teh APE adjusters. Not so sure I really want to deal with having to adjust them all the time.

I find it funny how these tiny valves are so expensive when I can buy a valve 3 times the size for my diesel pickup for a fifth or less the cost!

You rarely have to adjust manual tensioners. I haven't had to adjust mine since I installed them 4 months ago and don't see myself having to any time soon. It's better than just waiting for one to go bad and ruin your valves or head.

Im going to swap in another long velocity stack while ive got the airbox off to do my CCTs. No idea why Honda put in mismatched ones but a midrange boost for not much outlay is good enough reason to try the swap!

You can run any set up you like but there is a reason it is not a common mod. ;)

Some how once in your life is all the time? I have yet to hear of anyone needing to adjust them once installed. Krieger CCTs are also an option BTW, a little cheaper not quite as pretty, just as effective.

Yep, I haven't heard of anyone needing to adjust theirs once installed. You'll need to do much more involved maintenance (checking valve clearances) more often than that afaik. Manual tensioners- you could botch the install, although this would be nearly impossible with the covers off. Need to set the tension

Auto ones you'll want to replace again at some point, because they could fail again...

Ok so it's not like you need to adjust them regularly but I'd imagine they'll need to be addressed now and again. I know on some older bikes, early to mid '80's, they have a manual adjuster that you have to adjust every so often.

I've never really heard of tensioners in general actually completely failing, and letting the chain completley loose. I have replaced a handfull of then that weren't keeping full tension such as the old oil assisted F2's and a few on F4's and F'3s when I was a tech at a bike shop. The chains would get a little noisy but not completely slackened. Is completely failing really that common on these things?

Yes. The common theory is the one in front tensioner is oil starved, which causes faster wear, and often, the spring just breaks. Apparently this allows the chain to skip teeth resulting in the valves contacting the piston.

I've often wondered, if it's the front CCT that fails most of the time, would it be useful to run a manual in front and an automatic in the rear? Would that buy us anything in the way of automatic adjustments with additional safety?

Well I have posted the 2 simple rules to make you auto tensioners work fine a number of times. Yes they do have a service life and need to be changed out but I have over 90K miles (bought the bike new) with auto units and still going strong....

The manual one are also a good option, but the autos can work just fine also;)

share the wisdom then? All the reports ive read on here and vtr.com are largely positive, and Dr honda makes a good living selling a blinged version of long stacks so what do you know?

Well... I have read the old threads... Mostly as I was posting in them at the time... You should have done that before referencing "all the reports"...

The long stack is good for one part of the revband, the short for another... Combined, they give a decent compromise for driveability and performance... Swap one out, and you compromise gain in one end for loss in another...

The "blinged out" one's aren't just longer, they are carefully tested and calculated with a very precise bell form, making them as efficient or better than both the long and short stack, at all RPM's...

That knowledge has been shared more than once... But I guess it's a hassle to reseach yourself... Keep looking to be fed with info, and you will be dissapointed... Look around, read, and then ask questions, and you will get plenty of knowledge shared...

Sorry to break it to you buddy, but you already have manual CCT's that according to your logic will need adjusting...

If you had the OEM automatic CCT's and fixed it roadside, you would get about ten feet before the chain jumped again, since the spring would be broken... Your CCT's have a bolt that you could re-tighten and keep riding once you had timed the cams... Ie, they are manual CCT's...

I don't know shit about the intake set up on these bikes my friend....
So I will also remember to just sit back and :popcorn: if you ever have any tuning issues..... because, like you said, what do I know.... ;)

Found them. Let me get this straight, based on your rules, the front oil starvation is really only a problem if you run the bike on the sidestand, or stunt it by doing long wheelstands? I can live with that, and avoid it, as I warm up my bikes by riding them, and my wheelies are pathetic. :) However, your other rule, advising against using engine braking at 9000 RPM may be a bit hard to avoid. Diving into a corner or bombing down the highway, I am not going to pull in the clutch when I reach the point where I need to apply braking. So any hard riding that involves engine braking will wear on both tensioners, requiring replacement or risking damage?

Is that about it?

Actually no it's still got the factory ones in it. And it wasn't that it broke, it was that the bolts holding it on never got tightned and they backed out and the whole CCT popped out of the block. The more I'm reading here the more I'm thinking I'm going to go for the manual ones. At least in the front for now. Then maybe in the rear later.

I see on here where the PO had posted he wanted to install manual ones but he never did.

RZ, Well, just don't snap the throttle closed or get in the habit of using it for braking. Your rear wheel shouldn't be your primary deceleration anyway, although on these bikes it's obviously going to be part of it ;). You can use the front brake and control the throttle at the same time (which is good practice anyway from what I understand.).

A lot of people who have their CCT's fail buy 5 year old bikes that have been sitting and probably did something like this before that:

12 hit crash circle burnout - YouTube

Sorry that is not what I meant. What I advise against is slamming the throttle closed at high rpm ( think of just letting go of it and having it close by itself instead of rolling off of the throttle) So go ahead and use the engine braking and you will have no issues if you use proper throttle control but get hamfisted and slamming the throttle shut will put a major load on the CCTs ;)

But that's half the fun of riding a big twin for me. I don't use my brakes nearly as much as I do on my Bandit. Love the sound, and I am a bit of an old hooligan, sorry, lol. There's probably some battering happening as I'm out misbehaving. I do take it easy sometimes and like to get out in the twisties and leave it in one gear. Pulling from down low, and coasting to slow. It's a great tractable motor that suits my Dr. Jekell and Mr. Hyde riding style. :cool:
:wheelie::draggin:

Is the back well hopping when you close the throttle? If not then you are not slamming it closed.

Also are you doing it a 9k RPMs and above? That's why I said don't slam it closed on over rev, which means past the HP peak which is around 8.7K rpms or so.

Well, you have a choice, take the risk with the stock tensioners and replace them every 32,000 miles per Honda if the front one lasts that long or put in manual ones and adjust them every several thousand miles IF they need it.

Those old Kawasaki and other types used either a ramp set or a lock screw that would allow movement or brinnel a spot that would allow the tensioner to slip back. A simple threaded bolt set up is fixed far better.

When the HyVo chains are seated in the wear is so neglegable that you may not have to adjust the tensioners for tens of thousands of miles. I can't remember the last time I adjusted the tensioner on my KLX650 dual sport and that engine gets thrashed on washboard dirt roads and other rough road work. I also had a Concours rider who said they had 22,000 on the manual tensioner without adjustment yet and my own Zephyr 550 has 10,000 on it without need for adjustment.

That whole "have to adjust them all the time" is an old wive's tale. Plus, even if it did take a bit more attention it has to be better than having to pull and replace tensioners every 32,000 miles per Honda, if that front cylinder tensioner lasts that long. I for one would trust it no further than I could throw it, much the same as I feel about Kawasaki's "automatic" ratchet style tensioner - two of which ate my cam chains in less than 14,000 miles on my KLX.

I am Krieger by the way and will tell you if you have a VTR1000 do manual tensioners, whether they're the ones I make (and they aren't that ugly :rolleyes:) or someone else's - just do it if you don't want grief when it's least expected, based on everything I've read and heard. I just hate to see good bikes damaged by poor design parts. If you do the manual tensioners, you don't have to be all wound up on braking, stunting, servicing, replacing, or any of the other junk that has to be done to avoid having the OEM tensioners crap out.

Can't say the rear has ever broken loose on decel or braking, but it has under throttle. ;) Used to hold an expert roadracing license in WERA, so maybe some of that smoothness stuck with me. :) Course that was on 2-stroke racebikes and they didn't have any backpressure on engine braking to speak of.*

So if it's not skipping, I'm not endangering the CCT on decel?

I do plan to do the swap, but not yet. Only have 5100 miles on it. Hope it doesn't sneak up on me. :)

It sounds like you should have decent throttle control and shouldn't have a problem. SO yeah if you're not skipping the rear tire or getting pitched damn near over the bars from slamming the throttle closed, you should be fine. ;)

As for only having 5100 miles, that is not a big factor... what I would be looking at is that the bike has sat somewhere for a long time without the engine turning over. That could have possibly caused damage to a tensioner if it was under load that whole time.

You should change them out sooner rather than later just to be on the safe side as you have no idea what the PO has done to them.

seeing as all youve offered in your 2 posts to me so far is attitude and sarcasm yeah you do that.

Tweety, thanks for taking the time to write more than that guy.I understand its common to come on here and ask daft questions without searching, but on this occasion i really have read quite extensively on the subject and am prepared to take a loss of top-end i hardly use to boost midrange.
before and after dyno runs will settle the debate for me, and i'll post the results.