Math in this new economy
06-04-2009, 01:07 PM
#1
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Math in this new economy
Ok, these numbers are probably wrong since I can't find the real ones anywhere..
But I have heard it said that GM will have 50 thousand US employees after emerging from bankruptcy. (they currently have 240 thousand world wide, but lots of those are in Europe and China)
Now our government in it's wisdom just spent $65 billion "saving" GM.
That's $1.3 million per job "saved."
It seems to me that if they were instead to have just given those 50 thousand people the $1.3 million each they'd spend most of it stimulating the economy.
Instead some investors won't lose as much and the 50 thousand will have to take a pay cut to keep the new GM profitable.. (not that assembly line wrench turning is a $100k/yr job in the first place, but that is neither here nor there) That money won't be spent and the economy won't be any better off for all this. (nor any worse I guess as a failed GM isn't good either)
But I have heard it said that GM will have 50 thousand US employees after emerging from bankruptcy. (they currently have 240 thousand world wide, but lots of those are in Europe and China)
Now our government in it's wisdom just spent $65 billion "saving" GM.
That's $1.3 million per job "saved."
It seems to me that if they were instead to have just given those 50 thousand people the $1.3 million each they'd spend most of it stimulating the economy.
Instead some investors won't lose as much and the 50 thousand will have to take a pay cut to keep the new GM profitable.. (not that assembly line wrench turning is a $100k/yr job in the first place, but that is neither here nor there) That money won't be spent and the economy won't be any better off for all this. (nor any worse I guess as a failed GM isn't good either)
06-04-2009, 01:31 PM
#2
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Come on where is your heart and sense of nostalga? You can't call yourself American if you don't love GM can you?....LOL. Its another of those TOO BIG TO FAIL companies that we just have to save.
06-04-2009, 02:00 PM
#3
I don't need any Meds
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omg.. dont get me started..if you cut me i bleed red white and blue.. with shades of world travel mixed in just enough to know that most politicians do not bleed red white and blue at all and america was long ago boosted like some cargo in the night.
Goverment is too big now a days.. they have a huge budget and cant even figure out what to do with what they manage. Gm runs the company like the politicains run the country, straight into the f eing ground.
Probabaly time for a management change.. like the whole thing and maybe some restructering of how managment works.. i mean come on kerry actually won..we run around the entire world bombing people into submission to accept freedom and open free elections, only to have one cheated at home. sigh. what ever happen to america?
Goverment is too big now a days.. they have a huge budget and cant even figure out what to do with what they manage. Gm runs the company like the politicains run the country, straight into the f eing ground.
Probabaly time for a management change.. like the whole thing and maybe some restructering of how managment works.. i mean come on kerry actually won..we run around the entire world bombing people into submission to accept freedom and open free elections, only to have one cheated at home. sigh. what ever happen to america?
06-04-2009, 02:10 PM
#5
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Ok, these numbers are probably wrong since I can't find the real ones anywhere..
But I have heard it said that GM will have 50 thousand US employees after emerging from bankruptcy. (they currently have 240 thousand world wide, but lots of those are in Europe and China)
Now our government in it's wisdom just spent $65 billion "saving" GM.
That's $1.3 million per job "saved."
It seems to me that if they were instead to have just given those 50 thousand people the $1.3 million each they'd spend most of it stimulating the economy.
Instead some investors won't lose as much and the 50 thousand will have to take a pay cut to keep the new GM profitable.. (not that assembly line wrench turning is a $100k/yr job in the first place, but that is neither here nor there) That money won't be spent and the economy won't be any better off for all this. (nor any worse I guess as a failed GM isn't good either)
But I have heard it said that GM will have 50 thousand US employees after emerging from bankruptcy. (they currently have 240 thousand world wide, but lots of those are in Europe and China)
Now our government in it's wisdom just spent $65 billion "saving" GM.
That's $1.3 million per job "saved."
It seems to me that if they were instead to have just given those 50 thousand people the $1.3 million each they'd spend most of it stimulating the economy.
Instead some investors won't lose as much and the 50 thousand will have to take a pay cut to keep the new GM profitable.. (not that assembly line wrench turning is a $100k/yr job in the first place, but that is neither here nor there) That money won't be spent and the economy won't be any better off for all this. (nor any worse I guess as a failed GM isn't good either)
Why would the government want to do that?
Obama Motors Inc. needs those guys to build the New Generation of 19 h.p. solar powered HopeandChangemobiles we all want so desperately.
06-04-2009, 02:33 PM
#6
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F that! I want HUGE torque electric vehicals like the Mission1. Electric does not have to be low power. But there is a market for cheap slow cars too. Something GM should have known.
Last edited by Moto Man; 06-04-2009 at 02:36 PM.
06-04-2009, 02:40 PM
#7
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Let's just take the 750 billion or 900 billion or whatever the number for the US "Rescue Package" ended up being and divide it up equally amongst every man, woman and child in the good 'ol USA.
Somebody do the math on that. I got your stimulus package right here.
Somebody do the math on that. I got your stimulus package right here.
06-04-2009, 02:51 PM
#10
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A couple hundred new nuclear power plants? A couple thousand new bituminous coal fired power plants? You are dreaming.
06-04-2009, 03:23 PM
#11
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Even if you could convince Obama and the People For A Perfect World to build more power plants, even if battery technology progressed passed 400 pounds of weight to equal one ******* gallon of gas and 8 or 10 hours of charge to go 80 miles;
What is the cost and time frame for building an electricity grid capable of handling the 50% to 100% increase in demand?
06-04-2009, 03:33 PM
#12
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I posted this on another forum:
Government math:
GM is $67 billion in debt.
The U.S. Treasury has lent $20 billion and gets 72.5% of the new company's stock.
Bondholders have lent $27 billion and get 10% of the new company's stock.
The government says after bankruptcy, they will "covert debt into equity" and the new GM will be worth -$17 billion.
My math:
In 2005 according to the IRS, 25% of the wage earners pay 84% of taxes. There are approximately 225 million wage earners.
Since I'm in this group, I'm paying $312 to purchase a debt of $867. And if all goes well, my -$867 will increase in value to -$220 in the near future.
Excellent
Government math:
GM is $67 billion in debt.
The U.S. Treasury has lent $20 billion and gets 72.5% of the new company's stock.
Bondholders have lent $27 billion and get 10% of the new company's stock.
The government says after bankruptcy, they will "covert debt into equity" and the new GM will be worth -$17 billion.
My math:
In 2005 according to the IRS, 25% of the wage earners pay 84% of taxes. There are approximately 225 million wage earners.
Since I'm in this group, I'm paying $312 to purchase a debt of $867. And if all goes well, my -$867 will increase in value to -$220 in the near future.
Excellent
06-04-2009, 03:39 PM
#13
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You'll be more free of foreign oil, but the bureaucratic power companies will have you by the ***** instead.
06-04-2009, 03:56 PM
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Once upon a time Americans were a free people. They were free of dependence on foreign oil before their own Goobermint forbade them to drill, pump and refine their own oil wherever they found it.
06-04-2009, 04:01 PM
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This may be a bit long winded for some, but read on & see what you think.
....that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that govenment long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, then to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Declaration of Independence 1776
....that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that govenment long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, then to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Declaration of Independence 1776
06-04-2009, 04:10 PM
#17
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I'd agree if that meant gas at $2/gallon for the time being. Otherwise I'd say use what we've got and build a shitload of nuclear power plants.
06-04-2009, 04:16 PM
#18
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Yeah my grand pappy used to refine his own petro in his backyard to run in all the farm equipment. It twas easy he'd say. LOL. It's actually **** load easier to generate your own electricy than it is to refine petro.
Last edited by Moto Man; 06-04-2009 at 04:35 PM.
06-04-2009, 04:22 PM
#19
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WTF??? Do you read yourself?
And I don't support any Obama Green Agenda I just want bad *** Electric vehicals. INSTANT torque has it's appeal. There is a company next door to the outfit I work for that is making some electric bikes, and they are starting to look pretty freakin cool.
Getting back to the thread here though. GM should rot in hell because they make crap choices. I don't want to own any part of it even if they make Heavy torque electric cars. Do it on investor funds not my tax dollars.
....
Last edited by Moto Man; 06-04-2009 at 04:37 PM.
06-04-2009, 04:28 PM
#20
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I do read myself. Bad *** electric vehicles require bad *** electricity generation and bad *** batteries. Bad *** electricity generation is currently only possible/feasible with nuke plants. Bad *** batteries don't exist yet.
Current battery technology requires hundreds of pounds of batteries to hold the same energy as a 4.2 gallon tank of gasoline. How bad *** is that?
Last edited by RK1; 06-04-2009 at 04:46 PM.
06-04-2009, 04:44 PM
#21
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No you still don't see what I am getting at:
I was commenting on your post saying its "dreamin" to think of creating lots of Nuke plants to deal with increased demand for electricty, and then in a few posts down you are advocating creating lots of Nuke Plants to deal with increased energy demand after using up all our oil? Thats what I don't get.
You got it right about batteries though. They are not there yet. But we Americans make the best **** under pressure and necessity. It's what makes us great; Not resting on the past. Time to move forward to make those bad *** batteries...before the Chinese and Indians do it.
I was commenting on your post saying its "dreamin" to think of creating lots of Nuke plants to deal with increased demand for electricty, and then in a few posts down you are advocating creating lots of Nuke Plants to deal with increased energy demand after using up all our oil? Thats what I don't get.
You got it right about batteries though. They are not there yet. But we Americans make the best **** under pressure and necessity. It's what makes us great; Not resting on the past. Time to move forward to make those bad *** batteries...before the Chinese and Indians do it.
Last edited by Moto Man; 06-04-2009 at 04:47 PM.
06-04-2009, 04:57 PM
#22
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No you still don't see what I am getting at:
I was commenting on your post saying its "dreamin" to think of creating lots of Nuke plants to deal with increased demand for electricty, and then in a few posts down you are advocating creating lots of Nuke Plants to deal with increased energy demand after using up all our oil? Thats what I don't get.
You got it right about batteries though. They are not there yet. But we Americans make the best **** under pressure and necessity. It's what makes us great; Not resting on the past. Time to move forward to make those bad *** batteries...before the Chinese and Indians do it.
I was commenting on your post saying its "dreamin" to think of creating lots of Nuke plants to deal with increased demand for electricty, and then in a few posts down you are advocating creating lots of Nuke Plants to deal with increased energy demand after using up all our oil? Thats what I don't get.
You got it right about batteries though. They are not there yet. But we Americans make the best **** under pressure and necessity. It's what makes us great; Not resting on the past. Time to move forward to make those bad *** batteries...before the Chinese and Indians do it.
I got it. We aren't disagreeing about what is technologically possible down the road. I think electric vehicles are cool- Maybe the wave of the future.
But three things are required before that could happen. We'd need to generate a **** load more electricity, that means nukes, we'd need to build a power grid to handle the addition load, that means trillions of dollars, and we'd need battery technology capable of powering a vehicle a couple of hundred miles per charge without weighing a ton or more.
Politically we're fucked on the first two. Scientifically we're fucked on the last one.
06-04-2009, 05:18 PM
#24
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...and the Fed lent out 2 Trillion and isn't tell in g to whom...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aatlky_cH.tY
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aatlky_cH.tY
06-04-2009, 05:27 PM
#25
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Yeah. That's old news though. Who has been rattling that can today? The recent news that they can't account for over 9 Trillion is more disgusting.
At least someone is trying to figure it out...http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues...serve-hr-1207/
At least someone is trying to figure it out...http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues...serve-hr-1207/
Last edited by Moto Man; 06-04-2009 at 05:38 PM.
06-04-2009, 05:54 PM
#26
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Yeah. That's old news though. Who has been rattling that can today? The recent news that they can't account for over 9 Trillion is more disgusting.
At least someone is trying to figure it out...http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues...serve-hr-1207/
At least someone is trying to figure it out...http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues...serve-hr-1207/
06-04-2009, 06:38 PM
#27
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If it makes you gents in the US of A feel any better, the Canadian and Ontario governments are spending bucketloads bailing out the Canadian arms of Chrysler and GM also to the tune of $1 million per job (or so I have read). yes, we are one big happy family!
06-04-2009, 06:43 PM
#28
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Sorry mikstr. Doesn't make me feel any better. If I had to find SOMETHING to make me feel better, it might be the difference between what I pay and Quebecers pay in fuel tax. Honestly, it makes me feel bad for you but not better for myself.
06-04-2009, 07:08 PM
#29
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Trust me, having moved to Quebec from Ontario (for work, and I am fortunate to have a dream job), I know all about stupid taxation. If you ever think you pay high taxes, give me a call, Quebec wrote the book!
While we do have some stuff to gripe about, we are very fortunate to be living where we are and not in the depths of Flemistan or some other f***ed up place. It could be A LOT worse!
While we do have some stuff to gripe about, we are very fortunate to be living where we are and not in the depths of Flemistan or some other f***ed up place. It could be A LOT worse!
Last edited by mikstr; 06-04-2009 at 07:10 PM.
06-04-2009, 07:31 PM
#30
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Trust me, having moved to Quebec from Ontario (for work, and I am fortunate to have a dream job), I know all about stupid taxation. If you ever think you pay high taxes, give me a call, Quebec wrote the book!
While we do have some stuff to gripe about, we are very fortunate to be living where we are and not in the depths of Flemistan or some other f***ed up place. It could be A LOT worse!
While we do have some stuff to gripe about, we are very fortunate to be living where we are and not in the depths of Flemistan or some other f***ed up place. It could be A LOT worse!
A long time ago when I was 16 years old, I and two high school friends ran away from home and spent the summer in Quebec Province. Some time in Sherbrooke but mostly Quebec City. This was when the sepratist movement was stronger than now. We all had long hair and one of my friends who had spent years in Paris was fluent in French. We were treated very well and had a great time.
Taxes and all, I'd rather live in Canada than 99% of the rest of the world.
I still think Quebec City is the most beautiful and livable city on the North American continent.
