Harley Davidson riders
02-17-2006, 07:49 PM
#1
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Harley Davidson riders
What's with it with these guys? At the age of 16, all on my own, I was able to figure out that a Harley was a piece of crap that didn't handle, stop or accelerate well and wasn't reliable. In the early 80's when I bought my first street bike Harleys were leaking oil on the showroom floor! They're better now but still an ancient low tech design. What level of maturity is a Harley rider stuck in? I hate their straight pipes too. 
I've come to the conclusion that they're all just a bunch of wannabe bad boys in which owning a motorcycle is a prerequisite to being in the club. That being said most are fairly decent guys and I won't hold their Harley ownership against them but I do see it as a sign of bad taste. I guess a Harley rider could call me a wannabe racer poseur on my SH
I've come to the conclusion that they're all just a bunch of wannabe bad boys in which owning a motorcycle is a prerequisite to being in the club. That being said most are fairly decent guys and I won't hold their Harley ownership against them but I do see it as a sign of bad taste. I guess a Harley rider could call me a wannabe racer poseur on my SH
02-17-2006, 07:57 PM
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Well some say it's because it's american and some that it's got soul brotha. Some like the low end torque and the vibration,(enough to rattle bolts loose). I have to agree with you but my brother won't buy anything else then american so he rides the ugly step child Buell. He says he gets no respect from either side, Harley riders don't like it and jap riders think it' Harley crap. Although I'll admit it's a fun bike to ride. I'd say 90% of them never wave back on the road either, them and BMW riders, stuck up bitches.
02-17-2006, 08:06 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
I've never seen an a-hole stick out more than a few months ago when I was sitting in a bar in Chiang Mai, Thailand and this American roars down the street on his Harley with straight pipes and leather and parks it in front of the bar I was in. Everybody else in the whole city finds that a 100 or 125 cc scooter is enough bike for them and a "big" bike is a Honda 250RR. But somehow this American has to have a 1200 cc motor and make a lot of noise and flaunt his wealth. It was obvious he was turning all the chics off.
02-17-2006, 08:09 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
Buells are a step in the right direction and I like them. But they're still hampered by that V-twin engine out of the 50s. My friend's is already "weeping" oil and it only has a few thousand miles on it. I would never buy one.
02-17-2006, 08:37 PM
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If Willie G. had a brain they would've used the VROD motor for the Buell line of bikes. The diehard Harley guy hates that engine anyway and it would be a killer in a Buell. The only ones who really like the VROD line is the Euro's which it does well there but it's dieing here.
02-17-2006, 10:45 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
Wasn't the VROD engine designed by Porsche? Funny how an air cooled engine maker was the choice for water cooled engines. Harley should take a lesson from Porsche on the evolution of "human" thought.
VROD engine in a Buell?
I think the Buell has already used up its places to store fluids. Where would the water go? Fuel is in the frame and oil in the swing arm...water in the handlebars??
I too heard the call of the V-Twin, and so the “Bird of Paradise” came to be.
My Super Hawk is fluent in Japanese, English, and Italian.
Stick that in your skull cap Willie!
VROD engine in a Buell?
I think the Buell has already used up its places to store fluids. Where would the water go? Fuel is in the frame and oil in the swing arm...water in the handlebars??
I too heard the call of the V-Twin, and so the “Bird of Paradise” came to be.
My Super Hawk is fluent in Japanese, English, and Italian.
Stick that in your skull cap Willie!
02-18-2006, 08:04 AM
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As soon as I win the lotto I will own a Buell. Well a Buell XBR frame with a RC51 engine. A project I have been eyeing for a while just not cheap though. When I was working with a guy building choppers another guy had a Buell and after looking with some modifcations we believe a RC51 will fit, we hope. Only one way to find out.
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02-18-2006, 08:47 AM
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They're the most successful motorcycle company in the world. And no one is better at producing the product they produce for the audience who wants it. Every motorcycle company would love to have Harley's margins and customer loyalty. And every top business school teaches about Harley.
I had the opportunity to ride the entire Harley and Buell product line (for a week) in the Fall. They are neither as bad as you imagine, nor as unreliable. In the end, the XBs were my next to least favorites, after the Sportsters. I'd expected the opposite to be true. In fact, one or another Dyna-class might make a fun second-bike.
They are more suitable to the kind of riding (cruising) that their owners enjoy -- certainly -- than a Superhawk. This is simply a matter of bike preference. To make it anything more is to miss the essential point of riding, as it relates to freedom.
I had the opportunity to ride the entire Harley and Buell product line (for a week) in the Fall. They are neither as bad as you imagine, nor as unreliable. In the end, the XBs were my next to least favorites, after the Sportsters. I'd expected the opposite to be true. In fact, one or another Dyna-class might make a fun second-bike.
They are more suitable to the kind of riding (cruising) that their owners enjoy -- certainly -- than a Superhawk. This is simply a matter of bike preference. To make it anything more is to miss the essential point of riding, as it relates to freedom.
02-18-2006, 11:33 AM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
Funny this topic comes up. I asked a Buell rep a few years ago at Daytona when the new XB9r came out why they just don't put a Vrod engine in it. He replied it wouldn't fit. I figured they just designed a new frame-why not design it to fit the new engine. I've ridden Vrods and I loved the engine. Noticed the superhawk engine compared to it more than once in reviews when it came out. I wanted to build a buell lightning with airtech's superbike bodywork, loosely based on VR1000 bodywork. Lately I have a new idea. I know I'm going to take a huge amount of flak for this idea but lately I had an idea of taking an RC51 and building a VR1000 replica. Airtech still offers actual VR1000 bodywork for sale. Be a bit of work to make it fit properly but have you ever seen one? Real thing costs upward of 75-100k plus there are no spares and good luck finding someone to work on it. RC51 frame, swingarm, wheels, etc otherwise look pretty darn close. I'm not one who takes sides and I think all bikes are cool, which is how I think we all should be. I'm not looking for approval from anyone, harley crowd or sportbike crowd, but I bet it would get more attention than anything. I'm willing to bet money if I pulled it into a Harley show they'd all flip until I told them there was a Honda under there. Why? Besides classic car replicas are accepted everywhere. Plus, half of the new Buell Ulysses is made in other countries anyway-Japan, China, Italy, Austria, Taiwan, etc-so that debate can go on and on... Depending on who I buy certain aftermarket parts from my replica could be nearly as "American" as a new Buell is. Yeah I own (and built) my current superhawk, not my first, and I love it. Part of why I love it is because it's different, I hardly ever see them, amongst many other reasons including the awesome following it has. Also own a ZX12 which I also absolutely love, but which is sold and gone in a few weeks. Dying for the US to build me a real sportbike but until then maybe I'll have to build my own...and keep my superhawk too.
02-18-2006, 12:41 PM
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Hate to tell you Captain but the other Harley's are full of foriegn parts as well. As far as the VR1000 my brother and I have been begging for Harley to make one. The prototype VROD had the VR1000 engine in it, as far as Harley riders liking it I don't think more than 1/4 would know what it was. I would love to own an "American" bike but I'm still waiting for them to build one "I" want to buy.
02-18-2006, 01:02 PM
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They're the most successful motorcycle company in the world. And no one is better at producing the product they produce for the audience who wants it. Every motorcycle company would love to have Harley's margins and customer loyalty. And every top business school teaches about Harley.
I had the opportunity to ride the entire Harley and Buell product line (for a week) in the Fall. They are neither as bad as you imagine, nor as unreliable. In the end, the XBs were my next to least favorites, after the Sportsters. I'd expected the opposite to be true. In fact, one or another Dyna-class might make a fun second-bike.
They are more suitable to the kind of riding (cruising) that their owners enjoy -- certainly -- than a Superhawk. This is simply a matter of bike preference. To make it anything more is to miss the essential point of riding, as it relates to freedom.
I had the opportunity to ride the entire Harley and Buell product line (for a week) in the Fall. They are neither as bad as you imagine, nor as unreliable. In the end, the XBs were my next to least favorites, after the Sportsters. I'd expected the opposite to be true. In fact, one or another Dyna-class might make a fun second-bike.
They are more suitable to the kind of riding (cruising) that their owners enjoy -- certainly -- than a Superhawk. This is simply a matter of bike preference. To make it anything more is to miss the essential point of riding, as it relates to freedom.
I just wish most of the riders had a clue. 
My brothers buell is a blast to ride it was one of the last Eric Buell hands on bikes. My bro's always been a wheelie nut and that thing will pull up the front wheel from about 1800 rpm. It has really nice suspension components as well WP USD forks and a good shock fully adjustable and killer brakes. Everytime I did a mod on my Hawk he would say "ah your making a Buell huh".
02-18-2006, 01:04 PM
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02-18-2006, 02:03 PM
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Interestingly, the new six-speed tranny shifts almost like butter and the new clutch isn't hard to pull. This is true of all big motor models. Again, experience might alter a few perceptions.
BTW, nothing changed about Buell production when Harley bought a controlling stake.
They'll let you test ride them. I encourage everyone who's interested enough to post here to take the opportunity.
BTW, nothing changed about Buell production when Harley bought a controlling stake.
They'll let you test ride them. I encourage everyone who's interested enough to post here to take the opportunity.
02-18-2006, 02:26 PM
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Oh yes they did, the first thing Harley did when they first took over was take all the high priced goodies off the bikes. It took them a couple of years to bring back the better suspension and brakes. That and the tube framed Buells after they took over were one of the worst bikes in reliability, just ask anyone who owned one of the early lightning models. The first 2 years Eric didn't have as much power over the parts used and Harley had final say on everything.
Oh and you get a new foldable hat with a test ride. :wink: I also think it would help if you took the Buells out of the Harley dealerships. The Harley sales guys, (here anyway) Know nothing about them and don't seem to want to help the guys looking at them. I waited about 30mins before I got any help, (because I asked for it). But that could just be the dealership I was at although I've heard it from others as well.
Oh and you get a new foldable hat with a test ride. :wink: I also think it would help if you took the Buells out of the Harley dealerships. The Harley sales guys, (here anyway) Know nothing about them and don't seem to want to help the guys looking at them. I waited about 30mins before I got any help, (because I asked for it). But that could just be the dealership I was at although I've heard it from others as well.
02-18-2006, 02:47 PM
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You're waxing nostalgic about the earlier Buells, they were never known for reliability until recently.
Harley no longer requires HD dealers to sell Buells and about 85% have stopped. Yet the Buell brand can't carry a dealership on its own. I've long said that Harley should have bought Moto Guzzi when it was in talks to do so and used that to fill out stand alone Buell dealerships. It'd be one-stop quirky.
Harley no longer requires HD dealers to sell Buells and about 85% have stopped. Yet the Buell brand can't carry a dealership on its own. I've long said that Harley should have bought Moto Guzzi when it was in talks to do so and used that to fill out stand alone Buell dealerships. It'd be one-stop quirky.
02-18-2006, 02:52 PM
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Again I agree but I'm telling you the older ones were still better just not very much. I knew 4 guys that had lightnings and all had to be rebuilt with low mileage.
I also thought they should've bought Moto Guzzi but even better would've been buying Cannondale. Remember when Harley made killer dirt bikes. No better way to get the kids involved at an early age.
I also thought they should've bought Moto Guzzi but even better would've been buying Cannondale. Remember when Harley made killer dirt bikes. No better way to get the kids involved at an early age.
02-19-2006, 06:37 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
The Harley engine has a fundamental flaw in its design. It's air cooled and one cylinder blocks the air flow for the other.
With a Ducati air cooled engine the front cyclinder does not interfer with the rear cyclinder's air flow.
With a Ducati air cooled engine the front cyclinder does not interfer with the rear cyclinder's air flow.
02-19-2006, 06:57 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
One of many fundamental flaws:
- 45 degree angle is about about the worst possible choice in terms of balancing
- undersquare dimensions (exacerbates above, limits rpm ceiling and hence power production)
- 2 valves per cylinder (what year are we in again?)
- OHV (see above smarta** comment)
The fact that the only engine they sell which can be called even close to modern (V-Rod) is not accepted by the Harley masses, in my opinion, speaks volumes for the type of clientele they attract.
I will agree that Harley's re-birth from its near disappearance is a case study in marketing success. However, it must be said that their turnaround period coincided with the aging of the baby boomers and the "quest for image" which seems so important to so many. In other words, their success (and that of their accessory line) is living proof that image (and lifestyle) sells products.
Oh well, I will let those who are pre-occupied with impressing the shallow women of the world enjoy their mobile paint mixers. In the meantime, I will be out riding my "function before form" VTR and smiling from ear to ear as I eat up the miles and apexes.
- 45 degree angle is about about the worst possible choice in terms of balancing
- undersquare dimensions (exacerbates above, limits rpm ceiling and hence power production)
- 2 valves per cylinder (what year are we in again?)
- OHV (see above smarta** comment)
The fact that the only engine they sell which can be called even close to modern (V-Rod) is not accepted by the Harley masses, in my opinion, speaks volumes for the type of clientele they attract.
I will agree that Harley's re-birth from its near disappearance is a case study in marketing success. However, it must be said that their turnaround period coincided with the aging of the baby boomers and the "quest for image" which seems so important to so many. In other words, their success (and that of their accessory line) is living proof that image (and lifestyle) sells products.
Oh well, I will let those who are pre-occupied with impressing the shallow women of the world enjoy their mobile paint mixers. In the meantime, I will be out riding my "function before form" VTR and smiling from ear to ear as I eat up the miles and apexes.
02-19-2006, 07:19 PM
#24
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
One of many fundamental flaws:
- 45 degree angle is about about the worst possible choice in terms of balancing
- undersquare dimensions (exacerbates above, limits rpm ceiling and hence power production)
- 2 valves per cylinder (what year are we in again?)
- OHV (see above smarta** comment)
The fact that the only engine they sell which can be called even close to modern (V-Rod) is not accepted by the Harley masses, in my opinion, speaks volumes for the type of clientele they attract.
I will agree that Harley's re-birth from its near disappearance is a case study in marketing success. However, it must be said that their turnaround period coincided with the aging of the baby boomers and the "quest for image" which seems so important to so many. In other words, their success (and that of their accessory line) is living proof that image (and lifestyle) sells products.
Oh well, I will let those who are pre-occupied with impressing the shallow women of the world enjoy their mobile paint mixers. In the meantime, I will be out riding my "function before form" VTR and smiling from ear to ear as I eat up the miles and apexes.
- 45 degree angle is about about the worst possible choice in terms of balancing
- undersquare dimensions (exacerbates above, limits rpm ceiling and hence power production)
- 2 valves per cylinder (what year are we in again?)
- OHV (see above smarta** comment)
The fact that the only engine they sell which can be called even close to modern (V-Rod) is not accepted by the Harley masses, in my opinion, speaks volumes for the type of clientele they attract.
I will agree that Harley's re-birth from its near disappearance is a case study in marketing success. However, it must be said that their turnaround period coincided with the aging of the baby boomers and the "quest for image" which seems so important to so many. In other words, their success (and that of their accessory line) is living proof that image (and lifestyle) sells products.
Oh well, I will let those who are pre-occupied with impressing the shallow women of the world enjoy their mobile paint mixers. In the meantime, I will be out riding my "function before form" VTR and smiling from ear to ear as I eat up the miles and apexes.
great post... amen!!
02-19-2006, 07:53 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
You, on the other hand, seem more interested in impressing yourself. Let me see...shallow women or ************? :wink: All ribbing aside, c'mon! You don't really believe you can know so much about someone by their choice of bike, do you? They buy whatever excites them and we make the same viceral choice, simply based on different criteria. Its like choosing women, some like big ***** and some go for the pretty face or the tight butt or the red hair or whatever.
Imagine how much your life would suck if all your running buddies only liked the exact same kind of woman. :wink:
02-19-2006, 08:52 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
[quote]You, on the other hand, seem more interested in impressing yourself.
Seems I may have hit a nerve there huh Schmitty
Does that mean that you can see yourself in the comments? he he
Ask yourself (honestly now) when was the last time a Harley guy waved at you on the road? While not a be-all and an end-all measure, in my experience, when I meet a Harley dude, they are usually too busy looking the part of a big tough Biker-type to even acknowledge a mere bourgeoisie on a non-Harey product., wave or no wave. Seems common courtesy does not apply to we non-HOG types. Almost makes want to cry...lol
Do you know what the word conformist means? It all ties in with human nature and the fact that many humans have an overwhelming need to be part of something that they deem to be bigger than temselves. Case in point: I am not sure how it works down in the US but here it seems all the wannabe's are walking around with West Coast Chopper shirts (just another example of the sheepish mentality of far too many people). Future Harley owners? lol
The flavour of the day today is the Harley "brotherhood". It is all about selling image and mid-life crisis folks buying a Hog instead of a Vette. The middle-age guy wanting a Harley is very similar to the 17 year-old wanting a R1 ("My friends will think I am sooooooo cool"). Today it is a Harley, tomorrow it will be something else.
While perhaps not as worldly as yourself (and that may actually be a good thing, lol) I have been around bikes long enough (an avid enthusiast for over 28 years to be exact) to see the H-D trend really take off. No one, not you or anyone else, will convince me that H-D has built their empire on quality products. Now, if they are finally improving good for them (as long overdue as it is).
Class dismissed
Again, HD=living proof that image sells products
Seems I may have hit a nerve there huh Schmitty
Does that mean that you can see yourself in the comments? he he Ask yourself (honestly now) when was the last time a Harley guy waved at you on the road? While not a be-all and an end-all measure, in my experience, when I meet a Harley dude, they are usually too busy looking the part of a big tough Biker-type to even acknowledge a mere bourgeoisie on a non-Harey product., wave or no wave. Seems common courtesy does not apply to we non-HOG types. Almost makes want to cry...lol
Do you know what the word conformist means? It all ties in with human nature and the fact that many humans have an overwhelming need to be part of something that they deem to be bigger than temselves. Case in point: I am not sure how it works down in the US but here it seems all the wannabe's are walking around with West Coast Chopper shirts (just another example of the sheepish mentality of far too many people). Future Harley owners? lol
The flavour of the day today is the Harley "brotherhood". It is all about selling image and mid-life crisis folks buying a Hog instead of a Vette. The middle-age guy wanting a Harley is very similar to the 17 year-old wanting a R1 ("My friends will think I am sooooooo cool"). Today it is a Harley, tomorrow it will be something else.
While perhaps not as worldly as yourself (and that may actually be a good thing, lol) I have been around bikes long enough (an avid enthusiast for over 28 years to be exact) to see the H-D trend really take off. No one, not you or anyone else, will convince me that H-D has built their empire on quality products. Now, if they are finally improving good for them (as long overdue as it is).
Class dismissed
Again, HD=living proof that image sells products
02-20-2006, 06:36 AM
#29
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
I agree with you, I started riding in the mid 60s (I'm 55) and my first bike was a Honda CL90, I have owned many road and sport bike since then. I have ridden about 15 Harleys over the years, the new ones are better but I do not like custom - chopped bikes, never have. There is no question that image is a big part of the HD thing; I don't care for that image whatever it is 'bad *** - 1%er - tough guy - etc'. I have also had run ins with HD riders that where unprovoked and ridicules (most when I was riding or parking my ACE 750 which I have since sold - tried it didn't like it). I don't know what to make of the popularity of Harleys but for that matter I can't understand why people drink Bud when there are so many good beers out there or why NASCAR has any appeal given the many better motor sport alternatives. Keep the cursers and give me a bike that can turn, stop and GO!!!!!!!
02-20-2006, 07:05 PM
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Re: Harley Davidson riders
[quote="mikstr";p="17134"]
First, it was a joke, although I did worry that you wouldn't get it, since you seem overly sensitive about harleys too. (That's a joke too; lighten up.)
I'm pretty sure you don't really know any Harley owners. They wave as often as others. They'd stop to help at least as often as others. And they're good natured to me, always.
I have a lot of opportunity to mix with all kinds of bikers in my work. But this kind of silly nose-in-the-air rivalry only seems to come up on forums, never in any real world situation I'm involved in.
I can ride my Honda to the local biker bar and not get any ****. I do frequently. Many of my fellow MSF instructors ride Harleys. And the ride-related charity I just started working for has a lot of Harley-rider volunteers. Ever talked to any of them?
I simply haven't had any of the experiences you describe. Ever. My biggest bitch about Harley riders (well cruiser riders in general) is that they ride so slow. But that's not really so bad. And their bikes are more suitable for their kind of riding than ours would be. Ever gone on a cruise?
As to product quality. Harley built their business on being responsive to customers. They've taken the customer relationship to a high level. So if giving the buyer exactly what the buyer wants is quality, you got that one wrong too. Ever been in a Harley dealer?
Class dismissed? I'm certain you attach way too much about character assessment to purchasing decisions. So maybe you're not the best teacher. Go stand in the middle of a crowd of 100 Harley owners, open your mind, and see if your guesses hold water. Don't worry, you don't have to actually talk to anyone. Then send me 5 bucks for the clue.
[Blah, Blah, Blah...]
Class dismissed
Class dismissed
I'm pretty sure you don't really know any Harley owners. They wave as often as others. They'd stop to help at least as often as others. And they're good natured to me, always.
I have a lot of opportunity to mix with all kinds of bikers in my work. But this kind of silly nose-in-the-air rivalry only seems to come up on forums, never in any real world situation I'm involved in.
I can ride my Honda to the local biker bar and not get any ****. I do frequently. Many of my fellow MSF instructors ride Harleys. And the ride-related charity I just started working for has a lot of Harley-rider volunteers. Ever talked to any of them?
I simply haven't had any of the experiences you describe. Ever. My biggest bitch about Harley riders (well cruiser riders in general) is that they ride so slow. But that's not really so bad. And their bikes are more suitable for their kind of riding than ours would be. Ever gone on a cruise?
As to product quality. Harley built their business on being responsive to customers. They've taken the customer relationship to a high level. So if giving the buyer exactly what the buyer wants is quality, you got that one wrong too. Ever been in a Harley dealer?
Class dismissed? I'm certain you attach way too much about character assessment to purchasing decisions. So maybe you're not the best teacher. Go stand in the middle of a crowd of 100 Harley owners, open your mind, and see if your guesses hold water. Don't worry, you don't have to actually talk to anyone. Then send me 5 bucks for the clue.
