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09-08-2009, 06:26 AM
#1
evil man of nothing
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Watch AMA Pro Racing's finest, most professional official in action here:
Check out the Johnny Rock Page, Al Ludington video. Pulled this off roadracingworld.com. I also found some of the other JRP videos and comments interesting on youtube.
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=37409
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=37409
Last edited by captainchaos; 09-08-2009 at 06:55 AM.
09-08-2009, 06:56 AM
#2
evil man of nothing
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http://forums.13x.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=119 Here's Roger Edmondson's comments on the issue.
09-08-2009, 08:14 AM
#3
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It seems like a tough issue to me. If a backmarker moves over, it may cause the faster rider to run into him. But on the other hand, the backmarker should not continue going as fast as he can while holding his line.
Maybe he should take a quick look behind, depending on where he is on the track. I know I get frustrated when I'm watching a race and see a top rider getting impeded by a backmarker who seemingly won't get out of the way. But as fast as things are happening on the track, I must be very difficult.
On a personal note I get frustrated when I'm canyon riding and I come up behind a slow rider who sees me in his mirrors, but hugs the double yellow line. I don't pass on the right.
Maybe he should take a quick look behind, depending on where he is on the track. I know I get frustrated when I'm watching a race and see a top rider getting impeded by a backmarker who seemingly won't get out of the way. But as fast as things are happening on the track, I must be very difficult.
On a personal note I get frustrated when I'm canyon riding and I come up behind a slow rider who sees me in his mirrors, but hugs the double yellow line. I don't pass on the right.
Last edited by VTRsurfer; 09-08-2009 at 09:31 AM.
09-08-2009, 09:24 AM
#4
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I think it's all a question of if the backmarker is 'racing for position'; if so, he should hold his line but if he's circulating, making laps, at the first hint of a blue flag he should look behind and safely move off line and slow down and indicate the safe pass position.
09-23-2009, 08:19 PM
#5
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In the 6 countries I have roadraced in, the rules are always that the rider blue-flagged has to keep his/her line, and the safety of the pass is up to the overtaking rider.
As a rider and official, I have never had any difficulty discerning foul riding, including blocking. If other riders as well as the officials called this guy, then he was probably blocking, not holding his line, despite what he says.
(Though if he was being lapped, maybe his "line" was an unpredictable series of events, at that...)
... if he's circulating, making laps, at the first hint of a blue flag he should look behind and safely move off line and slow down and indicate the safe pass position.
Hell, no - just about as unsafe as you can get on the track, even at trackdays - but at race speed, calamitous. What happens then is that the next few riders in the series of riders about to pass actually run into you.
People tend to forget that these rules all arose out of tragedies, and the need not to see the deaths repeated. They are not just someone's ideas dreamed up in a vacuum.
As a rider and official, I have never had any difficulty discerning foul riding, including blocking. If other riders as well as the officials called this guy, then he was probably blocking, not holding his line, despite what he says.
(Though if he was being lapped, maybe his "line" was an unpredictable series of events, at that...)
... if he's circulating, making laps, at the first hint of a blue flag he should look behind and safely move off line and slow down and indicate the safe pass position.
Hell, no - just about as unsafe as you can get on the track, even at trackdays - but at race speed, calamitous. What happens then is that the next few riders in the series of riders about to pass actually run into you.
People tend to forget that these rules all arose out of tragedies, and the need not to see the deaths repeated. They are not just someone's ideas dreamed up in a vacuum.
Last edited by PJay; 09-23-2009 at 08:24 PM.
09-23-2009, 08:49 PM
#6
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD786HbQj0Q
Sorry, he was impeding traffic. It is a shame that he didn't understand this, but it doesn't excuse the governing body acting like children. It is simple when there is this much video documentation of the event.
JRP- I didn't , blah blah blah
Governing body- We understand that you disagree with us, when we review the footage, we will make an official decision and will give you that footage with it. As for now, you have been black flagged and this is our process.
Sorry, he was impeding traffic. It is a shame that he didn't understand this, but it doesn't excuse the governing body acting like children. It is simple when there is this much video documentation of the event.
JRP- I didn't , blah blah blah
Governing body- We understand that you disagree with us, when we review the footage, we will make an official decision and will give you that footage with it. As for now, you have been black flagged and this is our process.
09-24-2009, 06:35 AM
#7
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you're the racer, i'm not...
... so the blue flag is just to tell the rider what he already knows? what's the point of the blue flag then? to tell the backmarker to stop experimenting with different lines or waving at his GF? who's to say that his line (if he's a back marker, it might be erratic, right?) is the expected line? I'm not busting your chops, I'd really like your take on this. It seems to me all the leaders get real pissed if the backmarker that's had 3 or 4 blue flags waved at him doesn't let up a bit on the next convenient straight and get the hell out of the way when being lapped...
09-24-2009, 04:22 PM
#8
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... so the blue flag is just to tell the rider what he already knows? what's the point of the blue flag then? to tell the backmarker to stop experimenting with different lines or waving at his GF? who's to say that his line (if he's a back marker, it might be erratic, right?) is the expected line? I'm not busting your chops, I'd really like your take on this. It seems to me all the leaders get real pissed if the backmarker that's had 3 or 4 blue flags waved at him doesn't let up a bit on the next convenient straight and get the hell out of the way when being lapped...
That's all tied up with the rule about the overtaking rider being responsible for the safety of the pass, as well, of course.
Now, if someone's being lapped, the riders doing the lapping must be able to blow past unless they are being blocked - the average speed differential (per lap, cumulative) just makes that obvious. "Keep your line" makes the speed differential less of a problem.
Awareness of who's around you helps you in racing, but some riders have a much clearer idea than others. "Making space", done by someone who does not have good spatial awareness, creates far more problems than it fixes. I see it occasionally at training days I teach at. I have seen it cause crashes.
BTW - seen the blue flag in car racing? Yep - they use it, even though the cars have mirrors.
BTW some more - in my country and in Australia, at most club/non-championship bike race meetings, blue flags are not used.
And yet more, but at last returning to the origin of this thread - in no way do I condone the AMA official throwing his toys out of the cot. As Bill says, there's a correct procedure for eveything, and acting like a total clown is not part of it.
09-24-2009, 08:11 PM
#9
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3436/...20e4bab896.jpg
This is a good example of "crossing lines", not holding lines. If he had been holding his line, he would have been riding on the outside of a right hand turn and then the inside of a left hand turn.
This is a good example of "crossing lines", not holding lines. If he had been holding his line, he would have been riding on the outside of a right hand turn and then the inside of a left hand turn.
09-25-2009, 03:08 AM
#10
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Yep, the blue flag is to tell the rider that he's got someone coming up on him. Plenty of riders don't have any awareness of how close someone is coming up behind them. (You are, after all, meant to be concentrating on riding the best you can). Racebikes have no mirrors not only from the aspect of reducing possibilities of broken glass cutting riders up - it's to promote riders to concentrate on their own riding. "Ride your own ride" - familiar mantra, huh?
That's all tied up with the rule about the overtaking rider being responsible for the safety of the pass, as well, of course.
Now, if someone's being lapped, the riders doing the lapping must be able to blow past unless they are being blocked - the average speed differential (per lap, cumulative) just makes that obvious. "Keep your line" makes the speed differential less of a problem.
Awareness of who's around you helps you in racing, but some riders have a much clearer idea than others. "Making space", done by someone who does not have good spatial awareness, creates far more problems than it fixes. I see it occasionally at training days I teach at. I have seen it cause crashes.
BTW - seen the blue flag in car racing? Yep - they use it, even though the cars have mirrors.
BTW some more - in my country and in Australia, at most club/non-championship bike race meetings, blue flags are not used.
And yet more, but at last returning to the origin of this thread - in no way do I condone the AMA official throwing his toys out of the cot. As Bill says, there's a correct procedure for eveything, and acting like a total clown is not part of it.
That's all tied up with the rule about the overtaking rider being responsible for the safety of the pass, as well, of course.
Now, if someone's being lapped, the riders doing the lapping must be able to blow past unless they are being blocked - the average speed differential (per lap, cumulative) just makes that obvious. "Keep your line" makes the speed differential less of a problem.
Awareness of who's around you helps you in racing, but some riders have a much clearer idea than others. "Making space", done by someone who does not have good spatial awareness, creates far more problems than it fixes. I see it occasionally at training days I teach at. I have seen it cause crashes.
BTW - seen the blue flag in car racing? Yep - they use it, even though the cars have mirrors.
BTW some more - in my country and in Australia, at most club/non-championship bike race meetings, blue flags are not used.
And yet more, but at last returning to the origin of this thread - in no way do I condone the AMA official throwing his toys out of the cot. As Bill says, there's a correct procedure for eveything, and acting like a total clown is not part of it.
If I'd get a blue flag going into a corner I'd stick to the racing line and get through that corner as smooth as possible, it's then up to the considerably faster rider to get around me, probably by just going around me as he has a speed advantage...
Then on corner exit to a straight I'd not move over to the outside as fast and agressive as normal, as this is the most common racing line, but keep to the middle allowing the faster rider and a possible second racing for position to sling past... But do not turn into the inside line in the middle of the straight taking out the other rider going on my inside... just middle line... Then a quick look over the shoulder to see if there are more coming... If so hold the inside... Otherwise back to the racing line...
Again like Pjay said... don't do nothing unexpected or erratic... just leave a bit more room than when neck to neck with another rider...
On a straight, getting a blue flag... Don't effin move... Not one inch any way... You will get another rider up your *** if you do... It's that simple... Coming out on a straight you can move, but not once you are on it... The guy coming up fast may or no may not be aware of your blue flag... but you can bet your's and his life that he is aiming to one or the other side of you, fully aware of where you are, and you have a very vague idea of where he is and where he is going...
The guy in those clips was blocking... Not in any way making room... Not even close to "holding his line"... But the official needs to go to his room without supper... That's what happens to little kids when they throw a tantrum...
Last edited by Tweety; 09-25-2009 at 03:15 AM.
09-25-2009, 11:05 AM
#11
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So JRP calls this "holding his line"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD786...eature=related
09-25-2009, 09:50 PM
#13
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Exactly.
Not only that, but JRP was actually goading the official for a good 20 minutes before this clip was filmed. It was only after the goading, when Al finally exploded, that the cameraman "conveniently" caught this on film.
JRP is nothing but a ****-stirrer, and it's nice to finally see him banned.
Not only that, but JRP was actually goading the official for a good 20 minutes before this clip was filmed. It was only after the goading, when Al finally exploded, that the cameraman "conveniently" caught this on film.
JRP is nothing but a ****-stirrer, and it's nice to finally see him banned.
09-26-2009, 07:03 AM
#15
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Sorry to jump in on this late but kudos to PJAY he's absolutely right, when I was racing I just wanted those guys to hold their line so I could get by them as fast as possible. The worse thing they could do was move when I already knew where I was going to go to get by them. I also agree with Just Nick, while I was not present I do know Al Ludington and if you induce him to go off on you, you have really stepped in it!!
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