comedo

I wish him well at Ducati. He's a class act and he has a fabulous work ethic. I'm looking forward to seeing him at Indianapolis.

JamieDaugherty

Sure, this might be a good move for Nicky, but only time will tell. I don't agree with the comments about Nicky and Honda. Guys - they gave him a MotoGP ride and a second contract (which he signed, let's not forget). Who else are giving this stuff to? Not many. So what that he's been second to Pedrosa. He's had some bad luck over the past two seasons but he's also posted some decent results too. He's probably in a rut and nothing better than a bike change to help that out. Thus my opening statement.

GO NICKY!

HRCA#1

You know I'm almost afraid to post this because I know I will get shouted down but let me say what I believe to be true.

Nicky is a good rider, not a great rider. Spencer was a great rider. Lawson and Rainey were great riders. Kenny Roberts and Rossi (both of whom I can't stand) are great riders.

Nicky is in the class of one trick ponies like Marco Luchinelli, KRJR, Franco Uncini, Kevin Swantz and Wayne Gardner. That's why HRC has never put him at the top of their spreadsheets for the future.

Maybe a switch to Ducati would be good for him but I would remind you there are 4 Duc's in the field only one is competative..Stoner.

VTRsurfer

I agree with you about Spencer, Lawson and Rainey. I saw them all ride Superbikes in the '80s. I saw Kenny also, but felt the same of him that I do of Rossi=Big Ego.

However I believe that KR started the technique of hanging off in corners, which was a huge rider advancement.

I like Nicky for his skills and the way he handles himself off the track, but you may be right. In too many races the last 2 seasons he's lost places near the end of the race. But I hope the change will bring back some of his fire.

cliby

well said. I'm glad he's moving though, it will be exciting to watch. The ducati definitely seems to be hit or miss depending on riding style, so perhaps he has tested it and its to his liking. Either way, ducati is probably thinking they will get some US marketing boost out of it as well. This season started in such an exciting way and now with the tire differences even larger than before it has become a bit of a joke watching some of the races. I can not imagine feeling hamstrung in the prime of your career for any of those riders. I guess Rossi was right to throw a fit in demanding a move to bridgestone. Smart guy.

HRCA#1

I hope so too but I don't think the raw talent is there. I wrote in another thread what a former Race Team manager once told me "there are A riders and B riders then everybody else" The difference is and A rider can win on B equipment, a B rider can sometimes win on A equipment, and everybody else is racing for 10th.

Your comment about anging off is true but whats more importantant is the epic Spencer/Roberts battles refining rear wheel steering
(a lost art with traction control) and something Nicky can do if they unplug some of the electronics. Maybe Ducati will recognize this. Will it make Nicky an A rider..no but it would let a B rider win on A equipment

RK1

Man, this is a tough crowd!

I think Hayden is an "A" rider. Any guy who can win a Motogp championship is.

"A" ride or not, I don't think "B" riders win very often.

And guys who can consistently win on "B" rides aren't called "A" riders, they're called legends.

VTRsurfer

Yeah, in last weeks AMA race Freddie was talking about how traction control is causing more nasty high sides, since the rider can't control rear slide himself. Evidently sometimes the rear starts to slide a little, depending on how the TC is set up, then the TC kicks in and the rider gets launched.

HRCA#1

Almost exactly my point. Your Right "B" riders don't win very often, how many wins does Nicky have 4 or 5 in 4 years on what was clearly an "A" ride in the 990cc days! How many does Rossi have in the same time frame on what was and is clearly a "B" bike a dozen or more.

If you want to talk legends then all of these guys pale compared to Agostini, Hailwood, Redman, Surtees and some others, but that's a different thread

killer5280

ALL of these guys pale, including Rossi, compared to those guys? Different eras are kind of hard (read: impossible) to compare, but Rossi doesn't pale compared to anyone.

VTRsurfer

I'd say Freddie Spencer qualifies at near legend status, having won both 250cc and 500cc World Championships in the same year. Plus 2 more 500cc titles, and 750cc AMA Superbike titles as well (not sure of the number of those).

RK1

I understand what you're saying. My point is that what you're calling "A" riders is what I call legends. In the modern era, 500 cc two stroke, 990 cc and 800 cc 4 stroke, your definition of "A" would be limited to Kenny Sr., Spencer, Rossi and maybe Doohan and Lawson? Of the thousands of guys racing there have only been 5 "A" riders in the last thirty years? Again, those guys aren't mere "A" riders, they're legends.

As for guys like Hailwood and Agostini who won on 60 or 70 horsepower bikes when the talent pool was a tiny fraction of what it became later vs. a King Kenny or Rossi? Don't be so sure.

HRCA#1

Freddie won 3 championships 2 500cc and 1 250cc followed by a slide that found him out of 500GP and back in the states riding superbikes. There is a lot of backlot information about this having to do with a carbon fiber rear wheel disintegrating in South Africa, a painful breakup with his longtime girlfriend/fiancee, and endless carpel tunnel problems. Things that will probably relegate him to "near Legend" status but that's for those in the future to decide, to me he was a great rider, an "A" rider for sure.

AS for AMA titles I think he only won one. The best Superbike rider Honda ever had was named Fred only it was Merkel not Spencer. Unfortunately his lifestyle got in the way of his greatness. He went to Europe and won World Superbike Championships and lived avida loca over there and I think still does.

HRCA#1

I think your missing my point. When I talk about "A" riders and "B" Riders I'm not focusing on MotoGP but on roadracing in general especially here in the US. But the truth of AvsB holds true even for MotoGP. Edwards was an "A" Superbike rider he's never been more than a "B" motogp guy.

As far as those old timers riding 60 or 70 hp bikes your right they didn't make that much power but Hailwood and Agostini rode the wheels off of them on treaded tired tires with wire wheels that were barely 2'' wide and drum brakes at speeds over 120 mph on tracks lined with stone fences.

Agostini was still winning races in the 70's in the "Modern" era on Yamaha 500cc 2 strokes and Hailwood came out of retirement at 40 or 41 and rode an NCR Ducati to win the Ilse of Mann..don't tell me about legends!

RK1

This is fun anyhow. Like arguing whether a 25 year old Rocky Marciano could have beaten a 25 year old Muhammad Ali.

I figured you were talking about "road racing in general" and so am I, that's why I maintain that pretty much any guy who earns a factory ride in Motogp is considered an "A" rider by me, and by the company who decided to invest millions in him.

I think it's cool that Hailwood came out of retirement and won Isle of Man, but if that's the benchmark, you'd have to anoint Joey Dunlop the greatest racer of all time. Maybe he was. The Irish certainly think so. I'm just not sure how he'd do on a Motogp bike against Rossi and Stoner.

RK1

Let me put it this way;

Is it possible that Hailwood and Agostini, if they were 25 years old in 2008 would be beating Rossi and Stoner? Absolutely "possible". We'll never know for sure. But because the talent pool and competition are orders of magnitude greater than 40-50 years ago, I wouldn't bet on it.

Tweety

Well and then for the fun of it take that argument and turn it upside down...

Take any and I mean any of the great A or B riders or legends and offer them a full factory sponsored ride in the upcoming IoM and let them walk the track, and see the qualifying...

They'd run and hide, and then they'd call home to mommy... And that's with the "new and improved" track with "safety features" ie they wrapped the haybales in a tarp to stop them from moving away when the riders hit them...

IoM isn't a benchmark, it's a sanity test... I have driven the track on the VTR during the preparation for a IoM, they create the track a few days ahead and cut of trafic, and it's completely legal to ride the track (I think this has changed now though?), no speedlimits, but also no haybales, no ambulance, no recovery crew, and absolutely no insurance coverage...

I took my time and just about every local nut went zooming past me... But I got one thing straigth doing those 2 laps... To go that track at road legal speeds without constant breaking, you have to be a good rider, to go at "fun speed" you have to be a very good rider (a lot better than me!)... To achive the speeds of the race... Well you have to be a very, very god rider, and absolutely barking mad...

There are places where I question the sanity of the people that put up the speedlimit signs, and there are places I started questioning my own sanity... And then the next second a brit bike with taped up bodywork, dented slip-on and half a windscreen would bolt past me and barely touch the brakes before giving a twist... and mind you the state of those bikes attested to the fact that these guys wheren't even close to as good as the racers...

HRCA#1

Sorry, the wine kicked in and I went to bed before reading your last 2 posts. Both Hailwood and Ago would absolutley stomp Rossi's ***, just like Ago stomped Kenny SR at Daytona in what I believe was his only appearance there. Remember it's Rossi chasing Ago's record not other way around.

As for Joey Dunlop well he was the greatest TT'er of all time but I'm not clear on his record off the IOM, but no doubt he was the man to beat on the IOM.

As for Teety's comments let me say that in my prime you couldn't have paid me enough to race there. Those boy's are dead bang nuts!

And by the way Marciano would have knocked Cassius Clay out in round 1.