Motorcycle News Motorcycle Headlines from around the World.

Modern V-4 2 smoke

Old 06-09-2014, 05:15 PM
  #1  
Moderator
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,478
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
Modern V-4 2 smoke

This is it for me... I'd give up twins, yes I said it.

ronax-500cc-v-four-two-stroke-trackday-streetbike

Wolverine is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 06:27 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
thedeatons is on a distinguished road
Yah, I had an Aprilia RS50 2 stroke years ago. It was punched out to a 72cc. I only lived about 10 miles from work and commuted on the back roads. Every ride on it was awesome! Every time I left a stop light it was wide open. Every start was a grand prix start to keep up with traffic. Very fun bike...


James
Attached Thumbnails Modern V-4 2 smoke-dsc00182-small-.jpg   Modern V-4 2 smoke-dsc00183-small-.jpg   Modern V-4 2 smoke-dsc00184-small-.jpg   Modern V-4 2 smoke-dsc00185-small-.jpg  
thedeatons is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 06:31 PM
  #3  
Member
Squid
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: CA
Posts: 94
CrickiKaze is on a distinguished road
Aprilia does make a V-4 for their bike, RSV4.


Other than these guys that you posted I don't know of any other V-4 2 stroke.
CrickiKaze is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 06:34 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
thedeatons is on a distinguished road
RSV4 has never been a 2 stroke though...
thedeatons is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 07:07 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
7moore7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,867
7moore7 is on a distinguished road
Well that solves the side/undertail exhaust debate. Just use both! Now someone just needs to make a six banger to put the final two exhaust on the left side.
7moore7 is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 07:15 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 236
rick is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by 7moore7 View Post
Well that solves the side/undertail exhaust debate. Just use both! Now someone just needs to make a six banger to put the final two exhaust on the left side.
Moto-gp machines have had them both for a while now. It's either using both undertail and side exhaust or using one really big pipe and these power levels.

There have been 2 stroke V4 race bikes in the past.

e.g: Suzuki RGV500
rick is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 08:03 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 834
jscobey is on a distinguished road
There's a reason the whole world has gone to four strokes. I'd like to ride it tho
jscobey is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 08:05 PM
  #8  
Senior Member
Superstock
 
insulinboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Rome, GA
Posts: 458
insulinboy is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
This is it for me... I'd give up twins, yes I said it.


don't worry, You're not alone
insulinboy is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 08:32 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
killer5280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,728
killer5280 is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
There's a reason the whole world has gone to four strokes. I'd like to ride it tho
Idiotic environmental regulations killed two stroke motorcycles, but there are still millions of tiny little polluting 2 strokes all over the world.
Two strokes are lots of fun.
killer5280 is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 09:40 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 834
jscobey is on a distinguished road
True. Fun they are but very impractical and a lot more upkeep. The bottom line is that 4 stroke engines are a much more efficient power plant. Obviously 2strokes can almost double power of an equal displacement 4 stroke.

I will say that I couldn't even imagine how real it would get if I had a street bike with the characteristics of my old dirt bikes. Tire spinning out of every corner
jscobey is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 09:44 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
smokinjoe73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,923
smokinjoe73 is on a distinguished road
That was a moving video. Velocity channel recently played a special called "The Unrideables" about the 500cc 2 stroke motogp era.
smokinjoe73 is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 09:54 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
killer5280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,728
killer5280 is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
True. Fun they are but very impractical and a lot more upkeep. The bottom line is that 4 stroke engines are a much more efficient power plant.
I never found that to be the case in the 2 strokes I owned. They were easy to maintain and bulletproof reliable.

It was stupid environmental regulations that killed them, not impracticality.
killer5280 is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 09:58 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
thedeatons is on a distinguished road
Yah, and after spending $600-$1000 on every 4 stroke rebuild, and dealing with 225 moving parts, i've been back on two strokes for about 4 years and don't regret it one bit. About 5 moving parts, and $150 rebuilds.

If you think any different, then clearly you haven't had some titanium valves, a timing chain, and failed valve seats in your hands recently...

Keep buying all the new $9000 4 stroke dirtbikes, and i'll keep snatching up the used $800 2 strokes... All day long.
thedeatons is offline  
Old 06-09-2014, 10:05 PM
  #14  
Old and dangerous
SuperSport
 
rz_racer_69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 604
rz_racer_69 is on a distinguished road
Yep, I raced two-strokes on the 90's and enjoyed them quite a bit. Never had any problems with reliability from my RZ350, which was pretty heavily modified and got me a championship in '97. Funny thing is, I never really cared much for them as street bikes. Had RD350's too. Fast as hell, but never cared much for the exhaust note compared to a big 4-stroke thumper you could feel as it rode by, or the scream of a high revving 4 cylinder as it rips past. Nope, would not trade my SuperHawk for it.
rz_racer_69 is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 02:36 AM
  #15  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
kenmoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New South Wales Australia
Posts: 1,527
kenmoore is on a distinguished road
I used to love 2 strokes and had many as road bikes including Air Cooled RD350, 400 and LC250,350 and a Suzuki Gt750 triple that I did 96,000k's on beforeI pulled the head and barrel.

There was no need to as all was well but I fitted new rings anyway.

I wish that we could still get them as they all punched way above their weight in terms of performance and are simple to own.

The most important thing was to use the best 2 stroke oil money could buy and have them jetted right.

Memories!!!!!!!
kenmoore is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 06:43 AM
  #16  
Stiff Member
Back Marker
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: whiteford,md
Posts: 150
turbotim is on a distinguished road
I've heard a rumor that there is some new 2 stroke technology that drastically reduces the emissions they produce. If this is true, they could come back again. I sure hope so. I love my 250r three wheeler. Even with the crappy gas we have, I've let mine sit for about a year and it would run without even putting fresh gas in it. I'd love to have one of those two stroke triples from the 70's. It would be cool to see someone do a custom superhawk build with on of those motors. Then you'd have a one of a kind rocket for sure. There you go Wolv. I provided a new project for you. Tim
turbotim is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 12:10 PM
  #17  
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
 
CruxGNZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brookfield, WI
Posts: 2,312
CruxGNZ is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by turbotim View Post
I've heard a rumor that there is some new 2 stroke technology that drastically reduces the emissions they produce. If this is true, they could come back again. I sure hope so. I love my 250r three wheeler. Even with the crappy gas we have, I've let mine sit for about a year and it would run without even putting fresh gas in it. I'd love to have one of those two stroke triples from the 70's. It would be cool to see someone do a custom superhawk build with on of those motors. Then you'd have a one of a kind rocket for sure. There you go Wolv. I provided a new project for you. Tim
You're probably thinking of the EcoMotors OPOC. 100 miles per gallon and low emmisions to boot. If I remember correctly, Bill Gates was helping to fund this engine.

Here's some cool 2 strokes to add to this thread:
Jaybuilt Bellytank Tripple
Kawasaki 750 tripple cafe racer
There are also several more 2 stroke motorcycles on The Knee Slider.
CruxGNZ is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 01:32 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 236
rick is on a distinguished road
Yes there is some new reasearch on cleaner much efficient 2 strokes. Direct injection helps a lot as fuel is injected only after exhaust ports are closed.

I believe the snowmobile and jetski industry is probably doing most of the work right now.
rick is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 02:08 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
skokievtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,935
skokievtr is on a distinguished road
2smokers

Evenrude currently is the leader on production 2smokes and their PWC are even allowed on pristine Lake Geneva (ie, Lake Léman in Switzerland)...

4/8/2014*| Details | Press Releases | Evinrude.com

I still have my RD400 and rue the day I sold my Kawi H2 Mach 4 and Suzi 400 triples and Suzi Titan 500 twin.

No way 2smokes would have passed if not for the EPA!

Orbital tech is out there and technically a diesel is similar to a 2smoke but with poppet valves.
skokievtr is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 04:20 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
brothermike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 120
brothermike is on a distinguished road
The GP 500 bikes of the 90's were too powerful for all but the very best riders to handle. I imagine it would be a hoot to ride but wow be careful.
brothermike is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 04:32 PM
  #21  
Member
Superstock
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Snohomish, WA.
Posts: 285
Upland111 is on a distinguished road
Did you happen to catch the article that Sport Rider had on this bike?
320 lbs, 160 HP, and all for just a paltry $136,000. Oh, and they are making just 46 of them for the first year, and you can put down 30% to hold one right now.
Looks like another nice bike to add to Jay Leno's collection.
Boy how I LOVE my Superhawk!
Upland111 is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 07:06 PM
  #22  
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
davidka is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by killer5280 View Post
Idiotic environmental regulations killed two stroke motorcycles, but there are still millions of tiny little polluting 2 strokes all over the world.
Two strokes are lots of fun.
Consumer choice killed 2-strokes, not the EPA. By the time they were banned in the US, there were hardly any left to ban. I don't believe there are rules against racing them off road either but most choose a 4-stroke. They're gone because they are inferior.
davidka is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 07:27 PM
  #23  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
thedeatons is on a distinguished road
I don't know that i would be throwing around the word inferior. I would agree with terms like "simple", "cheap", "lightweight", "expensive to put gas in" (because of premix cost)... Inferior? No.

Dealerships and magazines convinced consumers that high revving 4 strokes required less maintenance. It's simply not true. If we were comparing honda xr series bikes and 2 strokes, then i would agree that 2 strokes require more frequent rebuilds.

Have any of you 2 stroke naysayers ever rebuilt the top end on your own late model 4 stroke? Ever done valve seats and guides? Ever played with cam timing? Cam chain tensioners? Valve spring retainers? Cam lobe profiles? The list of things to do is endless, and expensive

2 stroke top ends are very simple: squish band, port timing/height... My 12 year old helped do the top end on her kx65 two years ago when she was 10. She thought it was easy...

James
thedeatons is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 10:03 PM
  #24  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 834
jscobey is on a distinguished road
the bottom line is for a street bike they are far to quick to spin the tire. it would break traction constantly. IMO the break between each power stoke is what help keeps things smooth and controllable. id challenge any of you to ride a 500cc 2 stroke around a track at anywhere near the pace you can on a 4 stroke. you would land yourself in a ditch before turn 2....

think of the power of the 2 smoke dirt bikes. great fun IN THE DIRT. not so much on the asphalt where being smooth keeps you out of trouble

and if you say anything to the effect of 2 smokes are better than 4s, your just being nostalgic. people dumped their flip phones for iphones because they are better....
exhaust and intake ports are no match for valves and cams. 2 strokes are for lawn mowers and weed whackers....

if there was a market for 2 stroke bikes anymore, the powers at be in the big motor companys would never have let them get banned. the bottom line is no one wanted them anymore
jscobey is offline  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:25 AM
  #25  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
thedeatons is on a distinguished road
It's not quite so black and white. There's no reason to use a 500cc motogp bike as an example of all 2 strokes being unrideable. What is not being talked about is the fact that those 500cc bikes were all rider, no electronics. If you added the silly things they have now, traction control, wheelie control, etc, then they would be rideable.

The same goes for current top level racebikes, if you took away traction and wheelie control, those become somewhat unrideable too.

Anything can be tuned to behave however you want. My kawasaki kdx220 2 stroke had all low end and midrange, with zero top end hit, because of port timing and the pipe i had. The trx250r i had was a midrange bike for the same reasons.

The reason the 500cc 2 strokes were crazy is because they were tuned that way, not because they had to be.

There are many other great alternatives to a 500cc 2 stroke on the street: 125s, 250s, 300s, the list goes on. The UK still has tons of two strokes, and they use smaller sizes to actually "teach" their new and young riders how to ride, rather than letting every 16 year old have an R1.

2 strokes have their place, but like i said, people are brainwashed.

James
thedeatons is offline  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:54 AM
  #26  
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
davidka is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by thedeatons View Post
Dealerships and magazines convinced consumers that high revving 4 strokes required less maintenance. It's simply not true. If we were comparing honda xr series bikes and 2 strokes, then i would agree that 2 strokes require more frequent rebuilds.

Have any of you 2 stroke naysayers ever rebuilt the top end on your own late model 4 stroke?
That only holds true for 4-stroke motocrossers and only 250's and under from what I understand (I know guys with 8 year old 450's they've never opened). I've never rebuilt the top end of any engine, I don't imagine the vast majority of motorcyclists would ever need to either. Even so, the trade-off of chore/expense seems to be accepted by most off-roaders for the power and ride-ability they're getting. They even tolerate the difficulty of hot-restarts!

I stand by my assertion that 2-stroke is inferior because I look at them through the lens of the average road motorcyclist, but readily volunteer that it is in part because their development has been abandoned. If I were an Mx'er, I'd be pretty salty about the cost of engine maintenance too.

To the point about 500cc 2T's and modern traction controls, when 4-stroke 990's came in, they were more powerful and more ride-albe with much better tire wear, all without traction control. Josh Hayes was winning AMA superbike up until 2-3 years ago with no electronic intervention on his R1.

Last edited by davidka; 06-11-2014 at 06:57 AM.
davidka is offline  
Old 06-11-2014, 07:23 AM
  #27  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
thedeatons is on a distinguished road
I must admit I don't follow top level racing as much as others.


Were lap times faster or slower on the 4 stroke 990s (when compared to the 2 stroke 500s)?


Thanks for your input. Many of my comments have been biased from a mechanic's standpoint. I spent thousands on 4 stroke top ends, and countless hours in the garage that should have been spent on my family. Now with two strokes I spend next to nothing, with practically no garage time on the engines. These experiences are entirely dirtbike/ATV related. Obviously the street going motorcycles just don't have the same issues. It's the 4 stroke dirtbikes that are eating through heads/valves, and requiring a lot more money than their 2 stroke counterparts. It pretty much started with the titanium valve craze from Yamaha and Honda.


Still no argument for way more moving parts though









James

Last edited by thedeatons; 06-11-2014 at 07:39 AM.
thedeatons is offline  
Old 06-11-2014, 09:04 AM
  #28  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
killer5280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,728
killer5280 is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by davidka View Post
Consumer choice killed 2-strokes, not the EPA. By the time they were banned in the US, there were hardly any left to ban. I don't believe there are rules against racing them off road either but most choose a 4-stroke. They're gone because they are inferior.
That must be why you so seldom see 2 strokes on snowmobiles or karts or chainsaws or why 4 strokes are allowed double the displacement of 2 strokes in order to be competitive in racing classes.

Inferior is a poor choice of words. Tradeoffs is perhaps a better word because 2 strokes are superior to 4 strokes in many ways, especially in terms of simplicity, cost and power to weight or displacement.
With the proliferation and popularity of sporting motorcycles today, unlike in the days when 2 strokes were killed off (and they were indeed killed off) when there was less emphasis on performance, I would wager that if a manufacturer were allowed to build and sell a state of the art sportbike with a 2 stroke engine it would sell well.
The good news is that technology has progressed so much that 4 stroke performance is ridiculously high, making the demise of 2 strokes easier to accept.

But I do miss them and certainly don't consider them inferior because, well, they aren't.

Last edited by killer5280; 06-11-2014 at 09:13 AM.
killer5280 is offline  
Old 06-11-2014, 09:28 AM
  #29  
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
davidka is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by thedeatons View Post
I must admit I don't follow top level racing as much as others.


Were lap times faster or slower on the 4 stroke 990s (when compared to the 2 stroke 500s)?
No. 2T 500's were obsolete by the beginning of the 1st race. The 990's had a large power and ride-ability advantage and better tire wear. It can be argued that the rules were stacked in 4T's favor but that's another rabbit hole.

Originally Posted by killer5280 View Post
That must be why you so seldom see 2 strokes on snowmobiles or karts or why 4 strokes are allowed double the displacement of 2 strokes in order to be competitive in racing classes.

But I do miss them and certainly don't consider them inferior because, well, they aren't.
You do see less and less 2T's in snowmobiles. Karts aren't really relevant to the discussion since there has never been road legal karts and the sport is more obscure than disc-golf.

The displacement point is disingenuous. Based on firing cycles, they are the same since 2T's fire their displacement twice as many times per minute as 4T's do. That said, a 450cc 4T MX bike makes nearly as much HP as a 500cc 2T used to but it's far easier to ride.
davidka is offline  
Old 06-11-2014, 09:45 AM
  #30  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
thedeatons is on a distinguished road
500 2 strokes were never allowed to race with 450 4 strokes (in my recollection).


I'm certain if you asked some 450 racers whether they'd be okay going up against a 500 2 stroke they would not be for it... That is why YZ125s raced with YZ250Fs. That is also why YZ250s raced with YZ450Fs. So that math dictates the 4 stroke needs to be 45% bigger in size (CC) to achieve the same performance. And that was with a YZ250 with year 2000 engine technology, and a YZ450F with 2010 technology.


James
thedeatons is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Modern V-4 2 smoke


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:41 AM.


© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands