American made(assembled) V Twin sportbike
07-26-2010, 04:03 PM
#91
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It is all what about what is important to you. You race a lot and you know what you like. For me power to weight is the most important thing. I have big wide open roads here where there are a lot of opportunities to go ***** out. In that situation the CBR is a better sport bike. I will give it to you, if tight race tracks are what you do the smaller lighter bike is the better sportbike. With the Fischer though you are assuming that it is infact as good as an SV. And just by looking at its specs you would never know for sure. Now to prove my point it was my mistake by comparing the wrong bike. How about a slightly used 2007 GSXR 750? Under $8k from what i've seen. Now the gixxer (according to the manufacturer weighs about 20 pounds lighter than the Fischer and has power between a 600 and 1000. Has feather light steering and rock solid suspension. No one in there right mind would take a Fischer over the 750. The Fischer would never keep up with a bike like that.
And yes, if the Fischer lives up to it's promise it will not only keep up to the GSXR 750, but probably best it... The GSXR 750 is just a watered down version of the GSXR 1000 which is the same as the CBR... Lots of power you cant use...
Why... It comes back to the part of the equation you seem either unwilling to or unable to understand... Peak power only win's when you are playing top thrumph (the cardgame, dunno if you are old enough to get the reference or not?)
On track and on road it's where in the powerband you make power, how much and how easily available it is... The SV might only make 70 odd horsepower... But it makes them where it counts and you can use some 50 odd of them most of the time... The GSXR on the other hand makes some 120-130 odd horsepower depending on year... And you can still only use about 50 odd of them in most situations... So what do you need the other 80 for?
Bragging rights... Or long straights... Thats about all...
Last edited by Tweety; 07-26-2010 at 04:14 PM.
07-26-2010, 04:10 PM
#92
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Why would anyone who is going to run ***** out buy anything less than a 'busa or zx14? No way anything can keep up with that. If I was in the wide open spaces and could run ***** out, I would streamline a busa so my top speed was 250mph or more, than no one could keep up.
07-26-2010, 04:44 PM
#93
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An more practical example might help to get my point across pwshadow...
I'm using bikes I know something of, not the Fischer as that's spec only... The GSXR makes 120 something hp... The VTR makes 90-100 something... The SV makes 70 something...
In a corner the limiting factor of speed is suspension, tires and weight... Hp isn't even in the equation... On corner entry again suspension, tires and weight... No hp... It's not a factor of the speed you can attain or control...
So in these scenarios the above bikes become "equalised" ie they might have 120-70 hp... But the amount of that you can use is determined by the other three factors...
Now assume the three bikes are all set up with good component, sticky tires on all, suspension is adapted to the riders weight, and these factors become more or less equal as well... The difference is now weight... The GSXR 750 and the SV is the same weight the VTR is heavier, so it has a slower corner speed and a slower corner entry speed...
The result is that even if the GSXR makes 120 hp it can only use about 50-55 of those, which is the same as the SV... Otherwise it will chuck you at the scenery when the engine overwhelms the tires... The VTR is handicapped by it's weight and can only use 45-50...
On corner exit hp comes into play, but again the limiting factor is grip, hence suspension, tires and weight... So here it all becomes a game of who has the most power at low revs... The GSXR and SV are both fairly equal but the VTR wins, hands down nullifying some of it's handicap based on weight...
The GSXR still can only use 55-60 of it's 120... The VTR looses on weight and can only use 50-55, but again it makes that down in the basement so it's already past the GSXR when it get to it's powerband... The SV can use the same as the GSXR but makes that power lower down, so it wins coming out of the corner...
On a straigth the hp comes into play bigtime... The grip is more or less endless and all the suspension have to deal with is bumps and groves in the asphalt... Everybody is going full steam ahead... On a long straight the GSXR wins hands down, trailed closely by the VTR... The SV is left behind... On a short straigth however the GSXR looses just as big as it wins on the long ones... Because both the VTR and SV has the jump out of the corner and the first part before the GSXR is in it's powerband...
End result... If you have one or two straight making up ~50% of a track, then the GSXR or CBR will have a large advantage... Large enough that the SV and VTR have ahard time making it up in the twisty part... No long straight but many smaller, the VTR takes it... No straights at all and the SV leaves the rest eating dust...
I don't spend much time riding on straight roads...
I'm using bikes I know something of, not the Fischer as that's spec only... The GSXR makes 120 something hp... The VTR makes 90-100 something... The SV makes 70 something...
In a corner the limiting factor of speed is suspension, tires and weight... Hp isn't even in the equation... On corner entry again suspension, tires and weight... No hp... It's not a factor of the speed you can attain or control...
So in these scenarios the above bikes become "equalised" ie they might have 120-70 hp... But the amount of that you can use is determined by the other three factors...
Now assume the three bikes are all set up with good component, sticky tires on all, suspension is adapted to the riders weight, and these factors become more or less equal as well... The difference is now weight... The GSXR 750 and the SV is the same weight the VTR is heavier, so it has a slower corner speed and a slower corner entry speed...
The result is that even if the GSXR makes 120 hp it can only use about 50-55 of those, which is the same as the SV... Otherwise it will chuck you at the scenery when the engine overwhelms the tires... The VTR is handicapped by it's weight and can only use 45-50...
On corner exit hp comes into play, but again the limiting factor is grip, hence suspension, tires and weight... So here it all becomes a game of who has the most power at low revs... The GSXR and SV are both fairly equal but the VTR wins, hands down nullifying some of it's handicap based on weight...
The GSXR still can only use 55-60 of it's 120... The VTR looses on weight and can only use 50-55, but again it makes that down in the basement so it's already past the GSXR when it get to it's powerband... The SV can use the same as the GSXR but makes that power lower down, so it wins coming out of the corner...
On a straigth the hp comes into play bigtime... The grip is more or less endless and all the suspension have to deal with is bumps and groves in the asphalt... Everybody is going full steam ahead... On a long straight the GSXR wins hands down, trailed closely by the VTR... The SV is left behind... On a short straigth however the GSXR looses just as big as it wins on the long ones... Because both the VTR and SV has the jump out of the corner and the first part before the GSXR is in it's powerband...
End result... If you have one or two straight making up ~50% of a track, then the GSXR or CBR will have a large advantage... Large enough that the SV and VTR have ahard time making it up in the twisty part... No long straight but many smaller, the VTR takes it... No straights at all and the SV leaves the rest eating dust...
I don't spend much time riding on straight roads...
07-26-2010, 05:49 PM
#94
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo
I cant keep up with this guy, doubt many can either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oC6Ow8chgQ
This one illustrates some good points. If you look into the first turn, this guy gets owned, along with many others, by some guy running the outside 10-15mph faster than everyone else. This guy loses it real fast. Does it matter how much power the bikes had, doubt it.
I cant keep up with this guy, doubt many can either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oC6Ow8chgQ
This one illustrates some good points. If you look into the first turn, this guy gets owned, along with many others, by some guy running the outside 10-15mph faster than everyone else. This guy loses it real fast. Does it matter how much power the bikes had, doubt it.
07-29-2010, 06:28 PM
#95
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Fun thread. I'd like to see Tweety race PW on a Shadow. I'll put money down on that. I get to pick the road, though.
I honestly think the more you ride, the more you want to be on curves. Anyone can ride in a straight line. Riding the tight stuff takes skill and skill takes time.
Just think of it this way: They've made 160mph bikes forever. What EVERYONE is doing is trying to get suspension up to par, because that's where the money is...
I honestly think the more you ride, the more you want to be on curves. Anyone can ride in a straight line. Riding the tight stuff takes skill and skill takes time.
Just think of it this way: They've made 160mph bikes forever. What EVERYONE is doing is trying to get suspension up to par, because that's where the money is...
07-29-2010, 10:30 PM
#97
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PW, when you compare this bike, at new MSRP, to ANYTHING used, it's not a fair comparison for "value". I imagine that after a few years, you'll find one of these used at $4k or $5k. It's not a used bike, and for your value comparison to be really worthwhile, I think you'd have to go with a CBR/GSXR MSRP as well.
07-30-2010, 08:17 AM
#98
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My parents live in Colorado, I joined the Navy from Colorado.
Why anyone living in Colorado would ride the straight roads over the curved roads, I don't know or understand, nor do I want to understand.
When I was out there last summer, our trips were directly in to the mountains. No VTR with me, but rode my dad's VFR.
I know plenty of country roads a little east of town that are long and straight, but they would be my last choice for riding.
To add to Crashrat's thought: It is all about suspension. I was watching the Laguna Seca GP race, I forget which rider, I think it was the Chimp, but they said his lap times improved by 1/2 second or something substantial, purely based on dialing in the suspension. No engine mods, or reprogramming, just suspension tweaking.
I like spirited riding, but I love the twisties, I'll take a "V" configuration engine any day of the week over the "I" configuration engines.
Why anyone living in Colorado would ride the straight roads over the curved roads, I don't know or understand, nor do I want to understand.
When I was out there last summer, our trips were directly in to the mountains. No VTR with me, but rode my dad's VFR.
I know plenty of country roads a little east of town that are long and straight, but they would be my last choice for riding.
To add to Crashrat's thought: It is all about suspension. I was watching the Laguna Seca GP race, I forget which rider, I think it was the Chimp, but they said his lap times improved by 1/2 second or something substantial, purely based on dialing in the suspension. No engine mods, or reprogramming, just suspension tweaking.
I like spirited riding, but I love the twisties, I'll take a "V" configuration engine any day of the week over the "I" configuration engines.
07-30-2010, 09:54 AM
#99
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Why would anyone who is going to run ***** out buy anything less than a 'busa or zx14? No way anything can keep up with that. If I was in the wide open spaces and could run ***** out, I would streamline a busa so my top speed was 250mph or more, than no one could keep up.
And Tweety a gsxr 750 would be a watered down 1000 if it had the same engine. But since it doesnt it is much lighter giving it quite a bit of power with not very much weight. Im sorry you dont own one because every magazine Ive read says they are the perfect sport bike.
07-30-2010, 10:06 AM
#100
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PW, when you compare this bike, at new MSRP, to ANYTHING used, it's not a fair comparison for "value". I imagine that after a few years, you'll find one of these used at $4k or $5k. It's not a used bike, and for your value comparison to be really worthwhile, I think you'd have to go with a CBR/GSXR MSRP as well.
And as for racing tweety on a shadow... I might need some time to get the suspension tuned right.
07-30-2010, 10:12 AM
#101
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Why would anyone who is going to run ***** out buy anything less than a 'busa or zx14? No way anything can keep up with that. If I was in the wide open spaces and could run ***** out, I would streamline a busa so my top speed was 250mph or more, than no one could keep up.
Busa-194 HP 473 lbs dry
BMW-193 HP 403 lbs dry
07-30-2010, 10:33 AM
#102
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PW you would be invincible on a tricked out Shadow 600. Dial in the suspension, attach a jet-liner’s turbo on that kitty, pull the trigger and giddy up. Your friends on their cheap Tonka-toy sportbikes would miterate themselves as you rumbled through downtown. You would be a legend, nay, a GOD! to them who pray at the alter of the straightaway! Tweety birds would scatter in fear before you. Man. You would rock hard.
What’s the power-to-weight ratio on a Shadow 600?
What’s the power-to-weight ratio on a Shadow 600?
07-30-2010, 10:47 AM
#103
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PW you would be invincible on a tricked out Shadow 600. Dial in the suspension, attach a jet-liner’s turbo on that kitty, pull the trigger and giddy up. Your friends on their cheap Tonka-toy sportbikes would miterate themselves as you rumbled through downtown. You would be a legend, nay, a GOD! to them who pray at the alter of the straightaway! Tweety birds would scatter in fear before you. Man. You would rock hard.
What’s the power-to-weight ratio on a Shadow 600?
What’s the power-to-weight ratio on a Shadow 600?
07-30-2010, 12:20 PM
#104
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Looks cool; nice engine, sweet suspension, LIGHT WEIGHT, L twin sound. I'd buy one over an SV650S anyday. Smaller bikes are sometimes more fun on the street anyway. You can really spin them up and thrash them more than a liter bike. If I rode my VTR like a 600 supersport or SV I probably wouldn't be around very long.
Really when it comes to buying a motorcycle, for me at least, the things I look at are, looks, sound, weight, suspension, $, then maybe horsepower and torque numbers. But really who cares because it's all about what it feels like to ride. There are some really fun 1000cc I4's around, the FZ1 for example, lots of torque and the extra 40 or so horsepower up top is awesome. You just don't get that with the Superhawk.
Anyway since I got way off track there. The Fisher looks really cool. It already has most of the mods that a serious rider would do to an SV for not much more money. But carburetors!? UGH!!
Really when it comes to buying a motorcycle, for me at least, the things I look at are, looks, sound, weight, suspension, $, then maybe horsepower and torque numbers. But really who cares because it's all about what it feels like to ride. There are some really fun 1000cc I4's around, the FZ1 for example, lots of torque and the extra 40 or so horsepower up top is awesome. You just don't get that with the Superhawk.
Anyway since I got way off track there. The Fisher looks really cool. It already has most of the mods that a serious rider would do to an SV for not much more money. But carburetors!? UGH!!
07-30-2010, 12:24 PM
#105
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Now Im sorry. Listen I love my hawk it is a lot of fun to ride. But honestly I bought it because it had 9k miles, has never been recked and cost $2700. It was by far the best bike I could afford. And while the hawk does accelerate very fast and feels even quicker, you realize that it feels a lot faster than it is when someone pulls away from you on a 1000 i4. You will not accelerate on a hawk(same rider) than a 1k i4. The hawk is fantastic though. I am so happy with it and like i said, as my skills improve im sure my preferences will as well.
07-30-2010, 01:41 PM
#106
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Wow you dont like to do research do you. Out of the box all of the liter bikes have better power to weight than a busa or zx14. Those two are just too heavy. There are far more opportunities to race light to light or on a straight highway where i live than in the twisties. That is why a 1000 is useful.
And Tweety a gsxr 750 would be a watered down 1000 if it had the same engine. But since it doesnt it is much lighter giving it quite a bit of power with not very much weight. Im sorry you dont own one because every magazine Ive read says they are the perfect sport bike.
And Tweety a gsxr 750 would be a watered down 1000 if it had the same engine. But since it doesnt it is much lighter giving it quite a bit of power with not very much weight. Im sorry you dont own one because every magazine Ive read says they are the perfect sport bike.
BTW if you want to race me on a straight and not in the twisties I'm fine with that... I happen to have the keys to a bike suited for that... It does actually have a 1" stretched swingarm for rideability, but absolutely no bling-bling... And it puts 600'ish horses to the rear wheel... And that's real numbers... The rest of the chassie is setup for corners though, not streetracing... It's also a bike that gets ridden, not a showbike, it's done about 4000 miles a season the three years since it's built...
But if ya give me a shadow to race you should probably know the last time I rode a cruiser of the showroom floor for a demo ride, it was returned with the footplates "unmounted"... Long story short, the sales guy rode an identical bike, I set the pace on the way out, which meant sparks... Then he set the pace back, trying to beat me... He ended up in a ditch, having to ride back on my pillion... I ground of the mount for one of the plates...
But he has stopped trying to convince me to ride cruisers...
07-30-2010, 02:00 PM
#107
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Two words: Turbocharged Shadow.
It's cool. You're still finding out what you like about street riding. There ARE faster bikes for less money than the SH, but they don't tend to handle as well. You might have gone with F3 (or beat to sh*t F4) and been a little happier in some respects. They’re faster and lighter and have more of the power characteristics you seem to like.
The cost thing is always hard… 2.7k is a lot for a bike you will never be 100% happy with. For 4k you’re in beat R1 / CBR900RR world and effectively razor close to the CBR1000, depending on how mad you ride.
I’d say ride conservatively, don’t bang the SH up too much, learn some tricks, then sell up to something you want. Eventually you’ll be on a SV650 when you learn how much fun it is to outride guys on bikes putting out three times the horsepower.
It's cool. You're still finding out what you like about street riding. There ARE faster bikes for less money than the SH, but they don't tend to handle as well. You might have gone with F3 (or beat to sh*t F4) and been a little happier in some respects. They’re faster and lighter and have more of the power characteristics you seem to like.
The cost thing is always hard… 2.7k is a lot for a bike you will never be 100% happy with. For 4k you’re in beat R1 / CBR900RR world and effectively razor close to the CBR1000, depending on how mad you ride.
I’d say ride conservatively, don’t bang the SH up too much, learn some tricks, then sell up to something you want. Eventually you’ll be on a SV650 when you learn how much fun it is to outride guys on bikes putting out three times the horsepower.
07-30-2010, 02:05 PM
#108
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Quick hijack: I think some of you SH guys are also Hawk GT guys, so you might have heard about the run down a T.W.O. about five years ago where one of the people from that list – Marcus? – came on a ‘guzzi Nevada and was embarrassing guys on sport bikes.
I came late to that on my GB500 and met up with a friend on his Hawk, but I can confirm that a standard-ish cruiser, ridden by someone who knows his stuff, is much faster than a sportbike ridden by newbies… Or people on Hawks, for that matter.
I like the Shadow, though. A 500-lb shaft-drive twin? Sounds like the middleweight tour bike no one is making. Too bad the ergos are so friggin stupid.
Sign off.
I came late to that on my GB500 and met up with a friend on his Hawk, but I can confirm that a standard-ish cruiser, ridden by someone who knows his stuff, is much faster than a sportbike ridden by newbies… Or people on Hawks, for that matter.
I like the Shadow, though. A 500-lb shaft-drive twin? Sounds like the middleweight tour bike no one is making. Too bad the ergos are so friggin stupid.
Sign off.
07-30-2010, 02:54 PM
#109
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Two words: Turbocharged Shadow.
It's cool. You're still finding out what you like about street riding. There ARE faster bikes for less money than the SH, but they don't tend to handle as well. You might have gone with F3 (or beat to sh*t F4) and been a little happier in some respects. They’re faster and lighter and have more of the power characteristics you seem to like.
The cost thing is always hard… 2.7k is a lot for a bike you will never be 100% happy with. For 4k you’re in beat R1 / CBR900RR world and effectively razor close to the CBR1000, depending on how mad you ride.
I’d say ride conservatively, don’t bang the SH up too much, learn some tricks, then sell up to something you want. Eventually you’ll be on a SV650 when you learn how much fun it is to outride guys on bikes putting out three times the horsepower.
It's cool. You're still finding out what you like about street riding. There ARE faster bikes for less money than the SH, but they don't tend to handle as well. You might have gone with F3 (or beat to sh*t F4) and been a little happier in some respects. They’re faster and lighter and have more of the power characteristics you seem to like.
The cost thing is always hard… 2.7k is a lot for a bike you will never be 100% happy with. For 4k you’re in beat R1 / CBR900RR world and effectively razor close to the CBR1000, depending on how mad you ride.
I’d say ride conservatively, don’t bang the SH up too much, learn some tricks, then sell up to something you want. Eventually you’ll be on a SV650 when you learn how much fun it is to outride guys on bikes putting out three times the horsepower.
And Tweety as a side note, I just looked at the stats on your bike for the first time. No wonder you like your hawk so much. Nice job building that thing. The swing arm and the projector are badass.
07-31-2010, 04:32 AM
#110
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I've seen lots of naked CBRs that actually look pretty nice and the 599 (and 900) is a real looker, IMHO. I'm not sure you can upgrade the 599's engine to F4 specs or not, but I think probably.
I'll stand by what I think I might have said five pages ago and claim all these I4s have the same sort of power delivery, so if you were bored with a F3/F4, you probably would be bored with any of them, the R1s / CBR1000s, etc included.
This is, I think, what has confused a lot of people on this thread: Typically V / L twin people are not I4 people. They might be singles, V4, or I3 people, but the way an I4 makes its power is antithetical to the personality that craves gobs of torque. Comparing the Fisher to a Daytona 675, Buell XB, Ducati SS, SV, F800 (maybe) makes sense, but when you start tossing in I4s you throw everything off because a lot of us would never ever own a I4.
It occurred to me that they make a bike like the Fisher -- it's the Cagiva Raptor / V-Raptor. I saw one of these irl somewhere (Barber?) and it looked great. I don't know how they sold in Europe, but there's a machine in the same sort of niche, I think. Any of our European friends ridden one?
I'll stand by what I think I might have said five pages ago and claim all these I4s have the same sort of power delivery, so if you were bored with a F3/F4, you probably would be bored with any of them, the R1s / CBR1000s, etc included.
This is, I think, what has confused a lot of people on this thread: Typically V / L twin people are not I4 people. They might be singles, V4, or I3 people, but the way an I4 makes its power is antithetical to the personality that craves gobs of torque. Comparing the Fisher to a Daytona 675, Buell XB, Ducati SS, SV, F800 (maybe) makes sense, but when you start tossing in I4s you throw everything off because a lot of us would never ever own a I4.
It occurred to me that they make a bike like the Fisher -- it's the Cagiva Raptor / V-Raptor. I saw one of these irl somewhere (Barber?) and it looked great. I don't know how they sold in Europe, but there's a machine in the same sort of niche, I think. Any of our European friends ridden one?
07-31-2010, 06:26 AM
#111
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can i just say something...
if an sv650 wipes the floor with the 600RR on the track, and the I4 SS bikes deliver anemic power coming out of a corner, why are all the sport bikes I4's? Are the manufacturers nuts and keep putting the wrong power mill in these sport bikes?
maybe YOU are faster on an SV650 than a 600SS, but a guy who rides 600SS all the time is probably faster on an I4 than the V-twin.
if an sv650 wipes the floor with the 600RR on the track, and the I4 SS bikes deliver anemic power coming out of a corner, why are all the sport bikes I4's? Are the manufacturers nuts and keep putting the wrong power mill in these sport bikes?
maybe YOU are faster on an SV650 than a 600SS, but a guy who rides 600SS all the time is probably faster on an I4 than the V-twin.
08-01-2010, 12:16 AM
#112
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Race track is one thing, road another. What works well on a race track does not necessarily work as well on the road. I have no doubt a race rep IL4 will be faster than a 650 V2 in the hands of an experienced rider on the track. However, having seen some very unsporting types of bikes (a memorable one was a TDM850) killing race rep bikes on the track, I tend to think the rider is a bigger variable. We had a race series here for HD 1200 sportsters. These were very standard bikes. Typical HD low power, crap brakes, and no ground clearance. Yet when I looked at their lap times, they were doing Eastern Creek in the 1:40's. A fast Ride Day time is low 1:50's. My times on my CBR900RR at that time were low 1:50's, so these guys were faster than me!
When we get to street riding there are a number of changes that favour the V2's. Generally they make less power, but the power they make is more easily accessible. This allows riders to feel more relaxed at any given speed. Being a little more relaxed helps riders with their braking points and lines, it also helps to provide a bit of a buffer to deal with those unexpected circumstances that road riding can throw up at you, like pot holes, gravel washed onto a corner or the odd little furry thing that jumps, crawls or runs in front of you.
When we get to street riding there are a number of changes that favour the V2's. Generally they make less power, but the power they make is more easily accessible. This allows riders to feel more relaxed at any given speed. Being a little more relaxed helps riders with their braking points and lines, it also helps to provide a bit of a buffer to deal with those unexpected circumstances that road riding can throw up at you, like pot holes, gravel washed onto a corner or the odd little furry thing that jumps, crawls or runs in front of you.
08-01-2010, 04:08 AM
#113
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Colin has the first part of the question buttoned up way better than I could have done.
As far as why manufacturers build so many I4…? I think in a lot of ways it’s a game that you need to play to be taken seriously. You’re not a contender unless you compete in that market, even if that particular segment isn’t your bread and butter.
I would say that I see many more metric cruisers than sport bikes of any configuration on the road, but this could be just my impression. (I can’t dig up Honda’s sales figures on a Google.)
The cliché that mostly younger riders choose I4 sport bikes may be right or it may be wrong – I can’t find any significant stats. But I think RK1’s post sort of hits the nail on the head: If you only look at spec sheets, the I4s are clearly better. I think after you’ve ridden a few different types of bikes with a variety of engine configurations, you gravitate towards a power plant that fits your riding style.
Folks new to the sport have more access to written tests and specifications than actual bikes and probably pick their machines using that criterion. This is exactly how you would shop for a plasma TV or VCR if you were a smart consumer. I think in a lot of ways this thread has been a lengthy attempt to explain the difference between an I4 and a small v-twin and (as I say), I think Colin just did it in about 50 words.
As far as why manufacturers build so many I4…? I think in a lot of ways it’s a game that you need to play to be taken seriously. You’re not a contender unless you compete in that market, even if that particular segment isn’t your bread and butter.
I would say that I see many more metric cruisers than sport bikes of any configuration on the road, but this could be just my impression. (I can’t dig up Honda’s sales figures on a Google.)
The cliché that mostly younger riders choose I4 sport bikes may be right or it may be wrong – I can’t find any significant stats. But I think RK1’s post sort of hits the nail on the head: If you only look at spec sheets, the I4s are clearly better. I think after you’ve ridden a few different types of bikes with a variety of engine configurations, you gravitate towards a power plant that fits your riding style.
Folks new to the sport have more access to written tests and specifications than actual bikes and probably pick their machines using that criterion. This is exactly how you would shop for a plasma TV or VCR if you were a smart consumer. I think in a lot of ways this thread has been a lengthy attempt to explain the difference between an I4 and a small v-twin and (as I say), I think Colin just did it in about 50 words.
Last edited by Crashrat; 08-01-2010 at 06:39 AM.
08-01-2010, 10:03 AM
#114
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 243
i absolutely agree with this entire post. the V-twin power IS more usable and forgiving on the street. being able to use the engine braking to slow me down in a corner if i went in hot is something i love with a V-twin, and we all know I4's dont really do this...
We really need to take the "rider" equation out of this...i got chased down throught the twisties by a Harley sportster, now THAT was a humbling experience. but he also told me had he been on his Ducati 900SS he'd have passed me, turned around and would be halfway through the run before we would have met again. But then again, he lived on that road for 30 years...he knows every single corner like the back of his hand.
reason i mentioned the race track is that the race track was being mentioned earlier...how a v-twin is faster on the race track than an I4. I seriously doubt that...
another thing...V-twins have usable power on the street, nobody is disputing that, but then that bike is built like a race replica with uncomfortable ergonomics....sooo its meant to be a street bike as much as the R6, the 600RR and the ZX6R, yea its street legal but not really meant to be used as a daily rider..sure you could do it, but then again, everyone says the RC-51 is not comfy on the street and meant as a race bike.
So which one is it?! it takes itself seriously as a race bike but they put a power plant that cant compete with the I4s on the race track. Then on the other hand they put a good power plant for street riding and mate it with uncomfortable ergonomics.
and i dont think the manufacturers are playing the "consumer wants" game...there is a reason why 800CC I4's are competing with 1000CC V-twins. truth is, on the race track, the I4's are in the narrow powerband where they make massive power...thats all that is to it.
We really need to take the "rider" equation out of this...i got chased down throught the twisties by a Harley sportster, now THAT was a humbling experience. but he also told me had he been on his Ducati 900SS he'd have passed me, turned around and would be halfway through the run before we would have met again. But then again, he lived on that road for 30 years...he knows every single corner like the back of his hand.
reason i mentioned the race track is that the race track was being mentioned earlier...how a v-twin is faster on the race track than an I4. I seriously doubt that...
another thing...V-twins have usable power on the street, nobody is disputing that, but then that bike is built like a race replica with uncomfortable ergonomics....sooo its meant to be a street bike as much as the R6, the 600RR and the ZX6R, yea its street legal but not really meant to be used as a daily rider..sure you could do it, but then again, everyone says the RC-51 is not comfy on the street and meant as a race bike.
So which one is it?! it takes itself seriously as a race bike but they put a power plant that cant compete with the I4s on the race track. Then on the other hand they put a good power plant for street riding and mate it with uncomfortable ergonomics.
and i dont think the manufacturers are playing the "consumer wants" game...there is a reason why 800CC I4's are competing with 1000CC V-twins. truth is, on the race track, the I4's are in the narrow powerband where they make massive power...thats all that is to it.
Race track is one thing, road another. What works well on a race track does not necessarily work as well on the road. I have no doubt a race rep IL4 will be faster than a 650 V2 in the hands of an experienced rider on the track. However, having seen some very unsporting types of bikes (a memorable one was a TDM850) killing race rep bikes on the track, I tend to think the rider is a bigger variable. We had a race series here for HD 1200 sportsters. These were very standard bikes. Typical HD low power, crap brakes, and no ground clearance. Yet when I looked at their lap times, they were doing Eastern Creek in the 1:40's. A fast Ride Day time is low 1:50's. My times on my CBR900RR at that time were low 1:50's, so these guys were faster than me!
When we get to street riding there are a number of changes that favour the V2's. Generally they make less power, but the power they make is more easily accessible. This allows riders to feel more relaxed at any given speed. Being a little more relaxed helps riders with their braking points and lines, it also helps to provide a bit of a buffer to deal with those unexpected circumstances that road riding can throw up at you, like pot holes, gravel washed onto a corner or the odd little furry thing that jumps, crawls or runs in front of you.
When we get to street riding there are a number of changes that favour the V2's. Generally they make less power, but the power they make is more easily accessible. This allows riders to feel more relaxed at any given speed. Being a little more relaxed helps riders with their braking points and lines, it also helps to provide a bit of a buffer to deal with those unexpected circumstances that road riding can throw up at you, like pot holes, gravel washed onto a corner or the odd little furry thing that jumps, crawls or runs in front of you.
08-01-2010, 02:56 PM
#115
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
The thing is, it depends on the racetrack, as much as on where on the road you choose to have fun... On a tight and twisty track with shorter straights the I4 will have a significant disadvantage... On a track with a longer straight it will make up that disadvantage pretty fast... Make that two longer straights and the V-twin is toast bigtime...
Have look a few posts back... Yeah, I oversimplified a lot... But it's still essentially true as to how the different bikes compare...
08-01-2010, 05:39 PM
#116
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Belgium, WI
Posts: 1,611
Wow you dont like to do research do you. Out of the box all of the liter bikes have better power to weight than a busa or zx14. Those two are just too heavy. There are far more opportunities to race light to light or on a straight highway where i live than in the twisties. That is why a 1000 is useful.
And Tweety a gsxr 750 would be a watered down 1000 if it had the same engine. But since it doesnt it is much lighter giving it quite a bit of power with not very much weight. Im sorry you dont own one because every magazine Ive read says they are the perfect sport bike.
And Tweety a gsxr 750 would be a watered down 1000 if it had the same engine. But since it doesnt it is much lighter giving it quite a bit of power with not very much weight. Im sorry you dont own one because every magazine Ive read says they are the perfect sport bike.
08-01-2010, 06:00 PM
#117
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Belgium, WI
Posts: 1,611
a couple people have mentioned it before, but usually it is 5% bike, 95% rider. BUT, there are significant occasions where bikes make the rider. A great example is the lap times between a 250 and 450 dirtbike. Most guys end up being slower on a 450 because they can't manage the power. And the time spent on a 2 stroke 125 makes most people faster on a 250 4 stroke. Well, take it for what it is.
08-03-2010, 10:46 AM
#118
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 338
Well after reading numerous websites and magazine reviews and forums I found that you are correct. The 1k will beat the busa to about 170 or 180mph Then the busa will come creeping up from behind and keep accelerating. So moral of the story if you ever find your self on a gixxer 1k next to a hayabusa with a flat 2 mile straight away in front of you, go a head and race the busa but shut it down at 180 and ride away the winner. Or buy a BMW S1000R and beat both of them.(But look ugly doing it)
08-03-2010, 01:33 PM
#119
Who are you?
SuperSport
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 731
Or you could get a S1000RR and put Hayabusa fairings on it. Then you get the lighter, more powerful bike with super aerodynamics. Or add a turbo, bumping HP to about 400hp at the wheel, stretch it out to keep the front on the ground, gear it up some more, and go hit 200+
Last edited by Just_Nick; 08-03-2010 at 01:39 PM.
08-03-2010, 02:06 PM
#120
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 338
Or you could get a S1000RR and put Hayabusa fairings on it. Then you get the lighter, more powerful bike with super aerodynamics. Or add a turbo, bumping HP to about 400hp at the wheel, stretch it out to keep the front on the ground, gear it up some more, and go hit 200+
And I dont know why this turned into a 1k vs busa arguement. I was just saying 1000s have good acceleration in a straight line, which is not inaccurate.
