RC51 engine into a superhawk????
01-30-2005, 10:18 PM
#1
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RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Hello everyone, newb here. Ive been on this site a bunch and finally decided to sign up and post some. My question for yall is, is it possible to fit an rc51 engine into a superhawk? It seems like that would be the best way to get more power and better gas miliage. I know it would be a super hard swap if it was possible, needing to completely change nearly everything over, but has any body ever seen this done before? If not, does anybody see why this swap might not be possible? thanks
01-31-2005, 05:39 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
I've never looked into it but is could become a time consuming nightmare if even possible . Expensive too as I would imagine an engine kit would set a guy back some because they are in hi - demand .
What does a stock SP-1 make , 125 hp ?
Less than a $750 dollar bill will get a Super Hawk to around that level if the owner can do all the work himself and the engine miles are low enough to not need a valve job and the exhaust and carb jet kit have already been purchased .
If you do this swap, please post the details
What does a stock SP-1 make , 125 hp ?
Less than a $750 dollar bill will get a Super Hawk to around that level if the owner can do all the work himself and the engine miles are low enough to not need a valve job and the exhaust and carb jet kit have already been purchased .
If you do this swap, please post the details
01-31-2005, 07:25 AM
#3
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
well the thing is though that if i switched it over to an rc51 engine not only would i have that 125hp(more on the newer ones, actually saw the never one put out over 130 at the wheel with and exhaust) but it would also have fuel injection and better gas miliage. You say i could get to that range with 750$? What would have to be done to get to that range? I do already have an exhaust and jet kit btw, 12 thou on the bike. thanks for the help. O, and btw, the engines really aren't all that much, one of my dads friends bought one for 700 shipped off of ebay with a computer, radiators, and all the wiring (he is making a go kart with it!!!!!).
01-31-2005, 08:06 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
He got a great deal on that motor kit w/ shipping .
Intake cam change with a non catalog Webcam grind . Stock exhaust cams are good enough .
$250.00
JE 11.5.1 pistons
$220.00
Piston rings stock Honda
$35.00 x 2
Head gaskets - might can re-use depending
$35.00 x 2
Head port work with attention to unshrouding the valves in the combustion chamber and really working the exhaust ports .
The above will make for around 125 wheel horsepower but the midrange gain and how they feel is where it's at .
Just totaly different bikes with those mods and how Honda should have made them from the factory and uses stock valve springs . The cam just drops in and fuel mileage goes up . The stock cammed VTR's give one hell of alot of signal to the carbs .
A guy can run a bit different intake cam with the stock 9.4 compression but pulling the intake lobe center angle up from the 102cl stock , to 106cl is advised to trap the cylinder pressure better . At least I would advise it .
Stage III Moriwaki VTR 1000F's made 158-160 wheel hp going off memory but needed a HRC or Moriwaki billet crank . Those are long gone .
$ 599.00 buys Big Valley Honda's stage I Moriwaki cams and they use the stock valve springs and drop in w/o degreeing . You can run these with the stock compression ratio in part due to the lobe center angle .
Intake cam change with a non catalog Webcam grind . Stock exhaust cams are good enough .
$250.00
JE 11.5.1 pistons
$220.00
Piston rings stock Honda
$35.00 x 2
Head gaskets - might can re-use depending
$35.00 x 2
Head port work with attention to unshrouding the valves in the combustion chamber and really working the exhaust ports .
The above will make for around 125 wheel horsepower but the midrange gain and how they feel is where it's at .
Just totaly different bikes with those mods and how Honda should have made them from the factory and uses stock valve springs . The cam just drops in and fuel mileage goes up . The stock cammed VTR's give one hell of alot of signal to the carbs .
A guy can run a bit different intake cam with the stock 9.4 compression but pulling the intake lobe center angle up from the 102cl stock , to 106cl is advised to trap the cylinder pressure better . At least I would advise it .
Stage III Moriwaki VTR 1000F's made 158-160 wheel hp going off memory but needed a HRC or Moriwaki billet crank . Those are long gone .
$ 599.00 buys Big Valley Honda's stage I Moriwaki cams and they use the stock valve springs and drop in w/o degreeing . You can run these with the stock compression ratio in part due to the lobe center angle .
01-31-2005, 08:25 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
This comes courtesy from Roger @ Revolution Racing in the UK . He knows his stuff and has been there with the VTR1000F's .
One does not need the Moriwaki carbs though for around the 125hp level and it's doubtfull they could even be found and when camming them up I'd recommend the Dyno jet kit vs the Factory brand . But I've not tried the Factory jet kit on my built engines so never say never till it's tried .
1) Standard UK bike = 102bhp @ R/Wheel
2) S/ons + Dynojet kit + K&N = 106 -108bhp @ R/W
3) All of 2) + Moriwaki ST1 cams into ported & gasflowed Heads = 116-118bhp @ R/W
4) All of 3) + Moriwaki pistons, Moriwaki Carbs & Standard airbox mods = 123-125bhp @ R/W
All the above are suitable for street usage
5) Stage 2 Endurance Racing spec = 134bhp @ R/W with Std modified air box. 142bhp @ R/W with full Ram Air system
6) Stage 3 Superbike spec = 155-158bhp @ R/W This requires special billet crankshaft.
5) & 6) above require full racing exhaust systems
One does not need the Moriwaki carbs though for around the 125hp level and it's doubtfull they could even be found and when camming them up I'd recommend the Dyno jet kit vs the Factory brand . But I've not tried the Factory jet kit on my built engines so never say never till it's tried .
1) Standard UK bike = 102bhp @ R/Wheel
2) S/ons + Dynojet kit + K&N = 106 -108bhp @ R/W
3) All of 2) + Moriwaki ST1 cams into ported & gasflowed Heads = 116-118bhp @ R/W
4) All of 3) + Moriwaki pistons, Moriwaki Carbs & Standard airbox mods = 123-125bhp @ R/W
All the above are suitable for street usage
5) Stage 2 Endurance Racing spec = 134bhp @ R/W with Std modified air box. 142bhp @ R/W with full Ram Air system
6) Stage 3 Superbike spec = 155-158bhp @ R/W This requires special billet crankshaft.
5) & 6) above require full racing exhaust systems
01-31-2005, 08:34 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Let me ramble a bit more .
Over sized valves will help but is not needed for 125 hp . I would only change them out if I needed a valve job anyway and I'm the type to set a motor on kill occasionaly but I'd never personally run stiffer valve springs than stock on these motors ..
If I wanted the flow a smaller base circle , higher lift cam would provide which often is the type making different springs mandatory I'd just use the larger valves " intake and exhaust " so to get the velocity up when the incoming charge enters the combustion chamber after porting to blend in the area around the new seats .
There's a point to where when camming the CV carbs just won't work . Thats why HRC offered new slides with different cutaways in their carb kits .
Over sized valves will help but is not needed for 125 hp . I would only change them out if I needed a valve job anyway and I'm the type to set a motor on kill occasionaly but I'd never personally run stiffer valve springs than stock on these motors ..
If I wanted the flow a smaller base circle , higher lift cam would provide which often is the type making different springs mandatory I'd just use the larger valves " intake and exhaust " so to get the velocity up when the incoming charge enters the combustion chamber after porting to blend in the area around the new seats .
There's a point to where when camming the CV carbs just won't work . Thats why HRC offered new slides with different cutaways in their carb kits .
01-31-2005, 09:35 AM
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Well,
One factor that no one is mentioning, the chassis. There is no way that the stock chassis would handle that type of power without unwanted side effects.
Also keep in mind that the RC51 V-Twin is designed for top end with a sacrifice in low end power. It will not be as linear as the SH lump, but will have an awesome top end rush.
I think the bike is designed within certain parameters and once you increase the power that much (25+ %) you will start having negative implacations.
Invest in suspension and possibly a larger tank. Not sure what type of milage you desire but I could regularly get 125+ miles from a tank with just pipes, shimmed needles and TPS mod.
One factor that no one is mentioning, the chassis. There is no way that the stock chassis would handle that type of power without unwanted side effects.
Also keep in mind that the RC51 V-Twin is designed for top end with a sacrifice in low end power. It will not be as linear as the SH lump, but will have an awesome top end rush.
I think the bike is designed within certain parameters and once you increase the power that much (25+ %) you will start having negative implacations.
Invest in suspension and possibly a larger tank. Not sure what type of milage you desire but I could regularly get 125+ miles from a tank with just pipes, shimmed needles and TPS mod.
01-31-2005, 12:09 PM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
yeah, i get pretty darn bad gas miliage, im thrilled if i get near 35 on the highway. Once took a passanger and got like 25 on the highway!! But yeah, with the bigger tank, aren't they something like 1800 bux? And all these mods your talking about, is there a place to send off the heads to, cause i know there is no local place that would prolly be able to do that kind of extensive work? It seems like all this heavy superhawk modifying like that is happening over the seas (i live in IL btw). Im just kind of surprised that no one has ever tried this swap, i see so many advantages with it, the best of both worlds, well other than what mamisano said about chassis strength and what not problems, and maybe a little worse driveability through the loss of some torque. thanks for all the input btw
01-31-2005, 12:55 PM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Yep , alot has been done to the VTR's in the E.U. and Australia ect . These bikes are nearing the end of their heyday though .
Alot's being done where I live these days .
See that USA flag to the left ? As far as engine work in Illinois I'm at a loss at where you might try . S&K Racing is up there somewhere , maybe Ohio but he is a Zuki guy . He could do the head for you probably . Well he could do it all if he was inclined to .
Anyway ,
Opinions on modding these engines vary a great deal . Some seem to think the bikes will take on a Godzilla type character and purposely try to maim it's rider right before destroying Tokyo . Most cannot wring all of a stock Hawks potential out on the track with race slicks much less the street where full tilt of a possible 10 should be notched back a bit anyway for safety's sake .
Myself , I can't take a bike and leave it alone . I've got to give it some character that I have created in it . So what if they wiggle a bit ? Makes for less dull moments . If I had bought an RC-51 it would have recieved a make over also . At some point one might think a bigger HP later model bike should be bought instead of pouring money into something that never was . Some truth to that but not everyone beats to the same drum .
One could lay 170-hp in a Super Hawk and it still would not have the character of a TZ-750 or even the wiggle of Wes Cooleys old GS which handled superior to the Kawasaki race bikes of the day .
I say to each his own , it's all good 8)
Alot's being done where I live these days .
See that USA flag to the left ? As far as engine work in Illinois I'm at a loss at where you might try . S&K Racing is up there somewhere , maybe Ohio but he is a Zuki guy . He could do the head for you probably . Well he could do it all if he was inclined to .Anyway ,
Opinions on modding these engines vary a great deal . Some seem to think the bikes will take on a Godzilla type character and purposely try to maim it's rider right before destroying Tokyo . Most cannot wring all of a stock Hawks potential out on the track with race slicks much less the street where full tilt of a possible 10 should be notched back a bit anyway for safety's sake .
Myself , I can't take a bike and leave it alone . I've got to give it some character that I have created in it . So what if they wiggle a bit ? Makes for less dull moments . If I had bought an RC-51 it would have recieved a make over also . At some point one might think a bigger HP later model bike should be bought instead of pouring money into something that never was . Some truth to that but not everyone beats to the same drum .
One could lay 170-hp in a Super Hawk and it still would not have the character of a TZ-750 or even the wiggle of Wes Cooleys old GS which handled superior to the Kawasaki race bikes of the day .
I say to each his own , it's all good 8)
01-31-2005, 02:46 PM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
well, thanks for all the help, and i deffinetly agree with you on the uniqueness thing. I love my superhawk, i really wouldn't want to trade it for some cookie cutter four, or something similiar to that, it just needs a little more oomph, something to keep me excited, give it some scary appeal, ya know. Still considering the RC51 swap though, if anybody has any more input on that, that would be GREAT. thanks yall
02-01-2005, 02:00 PM
#11
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
My queston is has anyone swapped out the carbs and put in fuel injectors? This should address the gas milage problem, (and create more issues I am sure).
The easiest swap would be take the injectors off of an RC51 and bolt them up, with the necessary modifications made.
The easiest swap would be take the injectors off of an RC51 and bolt them up, with the necessary modifications made.
02-01-2005, 07:02 PM
#12
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
yeah, i think a whole swap wouldn't be to expensive though, might as well just do it all. I actually was talking to my dad today and his friend got his whole rc51 engine, radiators, comptuer, and all the wiring for 600, less that i origionally thought. Still amazes me that no one has ever tried this before.
02-02-2005, 11:19 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
ha, yeah, no doubt. I think the standard type bike the hawk is with an rc51 engine would be much more exciting than an rc51 itself. Plus if this swap is possible, it would be much much cheaper to do than buying an rc51 and messing with that. hum, if no one has ever done this maybe ill be the first then! haha, yall got to admit, a rc51 engine in a hawk would bring that bike alive. And for the same price as an exhaust costs for this bike you could have a completely changed superhawk (if the swap is possible ofcoarse).
02-02-2005, 12:14 PM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
I think your biggest problem would be the engine/swingarm mounts and frame bosses; totally different. Next would be the rc airbox to vtr tank mating. There's also no ram air on the superhawk. VTR guages and RVT wire harness won't mate so you'll need the RC's instruments which fits into that particular bracket which only bolts to those fairings.......
Ever hear the one about owning the original George Washington cherry tree ax? :wink:
Ever hear the one about owning the original George Washington cherry tree ax? :wink:
02-03-2005, 07:48 PM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Yeah, ive never actually been able to compare the two and have now clue where i might go to do that (internet wise). How off are the mounts? Could they be moved, or possibly some sort of bracket or different mount be made? And im sure something could be figured out with the whole airbox deal(top superhawk part mated the the bottom RC part maybe?, or maybe something else, i don't think that would be the most difficult part here). Ive seen people put the RCs gauges on the VTR before so i know that can be done . My dad works in a sheet metal shop so thats how i have access to all these things. My dad and i have done lots of custom type fabrication work or many things and i think if it could be done with out a HUGE HUGE (and i mean HUGE) amount of trouble we could certainly do it. Any more input would be greatly appreciated!!!! thanks
02-04-2005, 08:35 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Since there is a chain drive conversion for the Yamaha V-Max why not just go blown ?
I just love wretched excess 8)
http://www.rmsportmax.com/Magnasport.html
I just love wretched excess 8)
http://www.rmsportmax.com/Magnasport.html
02-04-2005, 06:18 PM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
haha, yeah, ive saw a supercharged hawk on www.sportbikerider.us once. That would be pretty bad ***, but again with the disadvantages. Loss is gas miliage, loss in reliability, and over three times expensive. Hummm, only if power was cheaper, haha.
02-04-2005, 06:27 PM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
http://www.sportbikerider.us/index.c...cture_ID=65739
a little ricey for my taste....well make that alota ricey for my taste
a little ricey for my taste....well make that alota ricey for my taste
02-05-2005, 11:30 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Yeah, what happened with the exhaust? I don't see the rear head pipe at all and the front one seems to end in the lower cowl; however, it looks to have mv agusta F4 tail pipes. My guess is it's a non-runner show bike.
Oh ma' gawd, a lavender (gay voice: or is it lilac?) engine. WTF???
Oh ma' gawd, a lavender (gay voice: or is it lilac?) engine. WTF???
02-05-2005, 04:13 PM
#22
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Damn that is butt ugly!
Although...I think I'll paint my frame a nice magenta with some pretty auburn bodywork with daises and roses, then I'll maybe add some powder blue wheels and ...................
Although...I think I'll paint my frame a nice magenta with some pretty auburn bodywork with daises and roses, then I'll maybe add some powder blue wheels and ...................
02-06-2005, 07:44 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
02-14-2005, 08:43 PM
#24
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Intake cam change with a non catalog Webcam grind . Stock exhaust cams are good enough .
$250.00
JE 11.5.1 pistons
$220.00
Piston rings stock Honda
$35.00 x 2
Head gaskets - might can re-use depending
$35.00 x 2
Head port work with attention to unshrouding the valves in the combustion chamber and really working the exhaust ports .
The above will make for around 125 wheel horsepower but the midrange gain and how they feel is where it's at .
where exactly would i find these parts? Ive been looking with little success. How hard would it be to install these parts? Something a decent mechanic could do with out a ton of trouble? Or is there alot of custom type work that has to be put into this. Do you have a set up like this on your bike? if so, what does it feel like? Is there a phenominal difference? thanks for the help
$250.00
JE 11.5.1 pistons
$220.00
Piston rings stock Honda
$35.00 x 2
Head gaskets - might can re-use depending
$35.00 x 2
Head port work with attention to unshrouding the valves in the combustion chamber and really working the exhaust ports .
The above will make for around 125 wheel horsepower but the midrange gain and how they feel is where it's at .
where exactly would i find these parts? Ive been looking with little success. How hard would it be to install these parts? Something a decent mechanic could do with out a ton of trouble? Or is there alot of custom type work that has to be put into this. Do you have a set up like this on your bike? if so, what does it feel like? Is there a phenominal difference? thanks for the help
02-16-2005, 06:51 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Yeah it makes a big difference . Dyno sheets to come sometime soon from two different size motors .
Any mechanic who knows jack can get the motor apart and together again for you . www.skracing.com can get you the pistons for $220.00 and might even do the work . The rest are factory Honda gaskets .
Look in the tech section . I wrote up some tid-bits on building one of these VTR1000F's with info on cams using the stock valve springs . I left alot out but it's a start .
These motors are in dire need of exhaust tract port work IMO and the combustion chamber walls shroud the valves a bit . An easy fix there though . Compression is throttle response . Compression is torque . 9.4.1 stock vs 11.6.1 is a big step and after camming there's no loss in low end and actually more in the middle with a big bang around 6800 .
Finding someone to do the portwork w/o ruining flow and velocity will be the mainest problem IMO although there's plenty of capable hands out there many charge quite a premium . Then again some don't . A guy named Katana John does good head work reasonable .
Any mechanic who knows jack can get the motor apart and together again for you . www.skracing.com can get you the pistons for $220.00 and might even do the work . The rest are factory Honda gaskets .
Look in the tech section . I wrote up some tid-bits on building one of these VTR1000F's with info on cams using the stock valve springs . I left alot out but it's a start .
These motors are in dire need of exhaust tract port work IMO and the combustion chamber walls shroud the valves a bit . An easy fix there though . Compression is throttle response . Compression is torque . 9.4.1 stock vs 11.6.1 is a big step and after camming there's no loss in low end and actually more in the middle with a big bang around 6800 .
Finding someone to do the portwork w/o ruining flow and velocity will be the mainest problem IMO although there's plenty of capable hands out there many charge quite a premium . Then again some don't . A guy named Katana John does good head work reasonable .
02-16-2005, 06:55 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Here's a dyno sheet with JE's and stage 1 Moriwaki cams without any head work .
http://www.hpower.com.au/
http://www.hpower.com.au/
02-16-2005, 11:38 AM
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
He He , my friends say similar .
Hey though, find a used motor and build it at your own pace. That way you still have a bike to ride then it's just 3 hours or so to swap complete engines .
A mildly cammed Super Hawk with more compression truely is a neat ride and if needed I am willing to give any of you guys both moral support and tech guidance by phone if you want to tackle putting more power between your legs .
I have my hands full most times with home projects , regular job , family and a drag boat motor here and there to build but I am thinking about doing port work on the Super Hawk heads from time to time . These bikes are so cool I think people will be hanging on to theirs , searching for nice clean one's and upgrading to higher performance in the future.
I've built plenty of motors over the years and my Super Hawk has been the most satisfying return so far . You guys in the area's closer to my Arkansas riding area can ride it this summer if the trip timing is right and decide for yourselve's if or not it's a nite and day difference . 8)
Sooooo , you guys might should pick you up and spare motor and get started :P
Hey though, find a used motor and build it at your own pace. That way you still have a bike to ride then it's just 3 hours or so to swap complete engines .
A mildly cammed Super Hawk with more compression truely is a neat ride and if needed I am willing to give any of you guys both moral support and tech guidance by phone if you want to tackle putting more power between your legs .
I have my hands full most times with home projects , regular job , family and a drag boat motor here and there to build but I am thinking about doing port work on the Super Hawk heads from time to time . These bikes are so cool I think people will be hanging on to theirs , searching for nice clean one's and upgrading to higher performance in the future.
I've built plenty of motors over the years and my Super Hawk has been the most satisfying return so far . You guys in the area's closer to my Arkansas riding area can ride it this summer if the trip timing is right and decide for yourselve's if or not it's a nite and day difference . 8)
Sooooo , you guys might should pick you up and spare motor and get started :P
02-16-2005, 02:47 PM
#29
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
Thanks extremely generous of you. Unfortunate I live about as far away ans you can get and not get wet on N. America from you or i'd for sure take you up.
02-16-2005, 09:45 PM
#30
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Re: RC51 engine into a superhawk????
did you say somewhere that you had an 1107cc motor!? that would be nutz, how exactly did you go about creating that? This whole internally modding the SH is lookin better and better, keep me satisfied and not so jelious of those inline fours, haha. Also, what kind of gas miliage are you getting out of your SH with all these mods? Just curious if it went down a whole ton, or stayed about the same, id still like to ride this bike around town alot and tour every once in a while with out that being hugely affected. thanks
