Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves performance
02-22-2006, 03:02 PM
#1
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Squid
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Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves performance
I'm going to say it now and then I ain't gonna say no more. Putting one of those filters on your bike is dumb. They don't filter as well and I expect that the amount of performance increase (if any) is so small it can hardly be measured. Please prove me wrong. And I don't want to hear quotes from K&N's website.
02-22-2006, 03:08 PM
#2
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I'm going to say it now and then I ain't gonna say no more. Putting one of those filters on your bike is dumb. They don't filter as well and I expect that the amount of performance increase (if any) is so small it can hardly be measured. Please prove me wrong. And I don't want to hear quotes from K&N's website.
02-22-2006, 04:01 PM
#3
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
a k&n wil do nothing on its own except lean the fuel/air mixture out and make a nice sucky noise. ive seen dyno readouts from stroms being improved by anything from 5-7bhp from race cans, K&N and the correct dynojey kit
02-22-2006, 04:46 PM
#4
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^What he said, like a breakfast cereal it's only part of a balanced breakfast. I live on a dirt road and have had no issues with it not filtering enough and would've gone through a few filters if it wasn't cleanable. To me that's worth it alone plus you can usually get them pretty cheap these days.
02-23-2006, 08:28 AM
#5
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Ah, so young, so young. A free flowing filter (like K&N) used to be a must have mod and always made more power, particularly with an exhaust. It was a great way to get more power for not much money.
The filtering isn't an issue. All that's required is for the filter to take out anything so big that it can cause damage. Anything smaller is of no concern. So, effectively, they filter fine.
Then around the early '90s Computer Aided Design came to airboxes. This opened up a whole new interest in factory tweaking of airflow and restriction. They got much bigger and much better. The previous restriction they caused was eliminated. In an internally unmodified engine, this made a free flowing filter unnecessary. Today they generally get you nothing or lose a HP.
The filtering isn't an issue. All that's required is for the filter to take out anything so big that it can cause damage. Anything smaller is of no concern. So, effectively, they filter fine.
Then around the early '90s Computer Aided Design came to airboxes. This opened up a whole new interest in factory tweaking of airflow and restriction. They got much bigger and much better. The previous restriction they caused was eliminated. In an internally unmodified engine, this made a free flowing filter unnecessary. Today they generally get you nothing or lose a HP.
02-23-2006, 12:04 PM
#6
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
WHAT!!! 
Those 8@$}{rd$...they killed my horse power!!!
That's what I get for using what I learned on my 27 year old KZ to help me with the SHawk. I better go see if that paper one I pulled out is still around here some where.
Awe forget it...I'm going back to fixing computers...at least they don't change much.
Those 8@$}{rd$...they killed my horse power!!!
That's what I get for using what I learned on my 27 year old KZ to help me with the SHawk. I better go see if that paper one I pulled out is still around here some where.
Awe forget it...I'm going back to fixing computers...at least they don't change much.
02-23-2006, 01:51 PM
#7
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
Your engine is basically a big air pump. More air in and more air out will produce more power when the air fuel mix is correct. More air, more fuel, more power. Pretty basic stuff.
To assume that all airfilters are designed by the manufacturer to flow at the optimum rate I think is a bit ambitious, especially with a bike like the VTR which has numerous shortcomings that appear to be done to keep the costs down for Honda.
Does the K&N flow more air? I dunno, but if it does you will get more power provided the engine needs more air. Leaving K&N out of the argument for a moment, experiments with other methods of increasing airflow have achieved more power, so that would indicate that more air is required for optimum performance. One experiment was to increase the size of the filter by adding in extra area, which achieved a power increase. Moriwaki also achieved a power increase with their custom induction system.
The best test for a stock engine would be to tune it to its optimum settings and then put in a new airfilter and tune it again. The dyno would reveal the results. The only problem with this is how many of us would not want to change pipes etc anyway? Has anyone done this experiment with a completely stock engine?
To assume that all airfilters are designed by the manufacturer to flow at the optimum rate I think is a bit ambitious, especially with a bike like the VTR which has numerous shortcomings that appear to be done to keep the costs down for Honda.
Does the K&N flow more air? I dunno, but if it does you will get more power provided the engine needs more air. Leaving K&N out of the argument for a moment, experiments with other methods of increasing airflow have achieved more power, so that would indicate that more air is required for optimum performance. One experiment was to increase the size of the filter by adding in extra area, which achieved a power increase. Moriwaki also achieved a power increase with their custom induction system.
The best test for a stock engine would be to tune it to its optimum settings and then put in a new airfilter and tune it again. The dyno would reveal the results. The only problem with this is how many of us would not want to change pipes etc anyway? Has anyone done this experiment with a completely stock engine?
02-23-2006, 03:34 PM
#9
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
Your engine is basically a big air pump. More air in and more air out will produce more power when the air fuel mix is correct. More air, more fuel, more power. Pretty basic stuff.
To assume that all airfilters are designed by the manufacturer to flow at the optimum rate I think is a bit ambitious, especially with a bike like the VTR which has numerous shortcomings that appear to be done to keep the costs down for Honda.
Does the K&N flow more air? I dunno, but if it does you will get more power provided the engine needs more air. Leaving K&N out of the argument for a moment, experiments with other methods of increasing airflow have achieved more power, so that would indicate that more air is required for optimum performance. One experiment was to increase the size of the filter by adding in extra area, which achieved a power increase. Moriwaki also achieved a power increase with their custom induction system.
The best test for a stock engine would be to tune it to its optimum settings and then put in a new airfilter and tune it again. The dyno would reveal the results. The only problem with this is how many of us would not want to change pipes etc anyway? Has anyone done this experiment with a completely stock engine?
To assume that all airfilters are designed by the manufacturer to flow at the optimum rate I think is a bit ambitious, especially with a bike like the VTR which has numerous shortcomings that appear to be done to keep the costs down for Honda.
Does the K&N flow more air? I dunno, but if it does you will get more power provided the engine needs more air. Leaving K&N out of the argument for a moment, experiments with other methods of increasing airflow have achieved more power, so that would indicate that more air is required for optimum performance. One experiment was to increase the size of the filter by adding in extra area, which achieved a power increase. Moriwaki also achieved a power increase with their custom induction system.
The best test for a stock engine would be to tune it to its optimum settings and then put in a new airfilter and tune it again. The dyno would reveal the results. The only problem with this is how many of us would not want to change pipes etc anyway? Has anyone done this experiment with a completely stock engine?
Other methods? Like what? I haven't heard of any actual evidence that improves over the stock airbox on a stock engine. But please share. I'd love to be able to find an improvement.
I'm not familiar with the Moriwaki claims but I doubt they were on an engine with stock internals.
02-23-2006, 03:48 PM
#10
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
When Honda first came out with the Superhawk it was to compete with Ducati not to keep costs down. Keeping it the same for all those years that was to keep costs down. The VTR was a kick *** bike in 1997.
02-23-2006, 04:43 PM
#11
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
It was always a compromise bike. So many facets of its design bear this out that I don't know where to begin. By the time the VTR hit the market, the no compromise RC51 was already on the way.
Don't think that I'm damning it with faint praise, however. I think the compromises make it the versatile yet capable street ride that we all love. Although I do spend too much time thinking about modifications I don't really need or can't really justify, I have to admit that, on the street, it's a blast to ride fast, it sounds good, and it's reasonably comfortable (except for the %&*$#@! seat).
Don't think that I'm damning it with faint praise, however. I think the compromises make it the versatile yet capable street ride that we all love. Although I do spend too much time thinking about modifications I don't really need or can't really justify, I have to admit that, on the street, it's a blast to ride fast, it sounds good, and it's reasonably comfortable (except for the %&*$#@! seat).
02-23-2006, 06:12 PM
#12
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Hate to say it but it's true, there are so many parts that they could've used to improve upon what they made but didn't. The only reason has to be price otherwise why wouldn't they use what was already available in thier parts bins? They were making a standard bike not a race rep.
02-23-2006, 06:29 PM
#13
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
Maybe Honda wanted to build their first bike with "Character"
Most bikes have to be running at high revs before it gets exciting.
The SHawk gives you an adrenalin rush just by hitting the starter switch.
Who can not love a machine that shouts "I’m gonna kick your @$$" when you fire it up.
Most bikes have to be running at high revs before it gets exciting.
The SHawk gives you an adrenalin rush just by hitting the starter switch.
Who can not love a machine that shouts "I’m gonna kick your @$$" when you fire it up.
02-23-2006, 07:34 PM
#15
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
I've seen dyno printouts on line with and with out K& N Filters in various configurations but can't find them right now.
I'll keep looking.
Mean time enjoy looking at these dyno runs in various configurations:
(No K&N info tho)
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
I'll keep looking.
Mean time enjoy looking at these dyno runs in various configurations:
(No K&N info tho)
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
02-23-2006, 07:47 PM
#16
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
Check out what this guy did & the results
http://ablett.jp/bikes/vtr/air_box_lid.htm
I'm still looking for those other dyno results with at stock air box, K&N, after market cans, & jet kit.
My memory thinks he picked up 1 to 2 HP on the top end but lost some in the mid range RPMs with the K&N. that's the one we need to see.
http://ablett.jp/bikes/vtr/air_box_lid.htm
I'm still looking for those other dyno results with at stock air box, K&N, after market cans, & jet kit.
My memory thinks he picked up 1 to 2 HP on the top end but lost some in the mid range RPMs with the K&N. that's the one we need to see.
02-23-2006, 08:04 PM
#17
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
Back to original argument for a minute, I would GUESS that (only a guess) if you put a K&N on a bike that was jetted perfectly, and did not re-jet when fitting the new filter, then it is possible it may actually lose power. But many owners who dyno tune there bikes show increases from what I recall. So it may come down to the job not being done properly.
The Moriwaki engines are race spec, and the intake mods are high, including ram-air and new inlet trumpets etc, so not really relevent for most of us.
The other mod I know of is to increase the size of the filter area by adding extra filter material to the filter plate, so effectively you have a larger area for the air to pass through. Again though this was not on a stock engine, and was mostly used on the track.
On the other hand however, how many of us have totally stock bikes? Not many? The exhaust especially is not a good design and replacing it will immediatley change the airflow requirements of the engine. The primaries are smaller than the exhaust port!
My experiments will not really answer this question, as my engine is not stock. However we have an Australian VTR owner with a very trick exhaust system that breathes very well in his opinion, and made a big difference to performance once he had re-jetted to suit. He has stock internals. As an experiment he has removed the snorkel in the airbox, which increases the size of the inlet a lot. This has also made a considerable difference in his opinion. This of course should be done properly in the long term. I am thinking of looking for a larger snorkel from another bike or perhaps two snorkels of smaller size. But I think this shows on a realtively stock bike there is room for improvement.
I think it is worth experimenting on for sure as the above result shows. My Suzuki DL650 V-Strom showed a nice improvement when I removed the inlet restrictions and opened the exhaust, with no other changes. You can definately hear it sucking in more air.
The Moriwaki engines are race spec, and the intake mods are high, including ram-air and new inlet trumpets etc, so not really relevent for most of us.
The other mod I know of is to increase the size of the filter area by adding extra filter material to the filter plate, so effectively you have a larger area for the air to pass through. Again though this was not on a stock engine, and was mostly used on the track.
On the other hand however, how many of us have totally stock bikes? Not many? The exhaust especially is not a good design and replacing it will immediatley change the airflow requirements of the engine. The primaries are smaller than the exhaust port!
My experiments will not really answer this question, as my engine is not stock. However we have an Australian VTR owner with a very trick exhaust system that breathes very well in his opinion, and made a big difference to performance once he had re-jetted to suit. He has stock internals. As an experiment he has removed the snorkel in the airbox, which increases the size of the inlet a lot. This has also made a considerable difference in his opinion. This of course should be done properly in the long term. I am thinking of looking for a larger snorkel from another bike or perhaps two snorkels of smaller size. But I think this shows on a realtively stock bike there is room for improvement.
I think it is worth experimenting on for sure as the above result shows. My Suzuki DL650 V-Strom showed a nice improvement when I removed the inlet restrictions and opened the exhaust, with no other changes. You can definately hear it sucking in more air.
02-24-2006, 09:54 AM
#18
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
Finally found some K&N data here:
http://www.dynamohumm.com/HONDA/VTR%201000/my_vtr.htm
Scroll to the bottom of page
http://www.dynamohumm.com/HONDA/VTR%201000/my_vtr.htm
Scroll to the bottom of page
02-24-2006, 10:44 AM
#20
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Damn, your supposed to change the air filter too? awh, who new? lol....I need to check mine, I havn't checked it since I've had the bike....oops....better go do that now.....
02-24-2006, 11:15 AM
#22
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
No dirt road, but lots of construction in a new community, so lots of dust etc....I can wash my truck, and the next day it has a layer of dust and dirt on it....SUCKS!!!
02-24-2006, 02:05 PM
#23
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And, I say "where's the horsepower graph?"
02-24-2006, 02:13 PM
#24
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Yeah I was looking for that as well but my point is if you plan on keeping the bike, it's not hurting the performance enough to really notice. 1.3 ft lbs is not enough to notice not to mention that much change could happen just with ambient temp. In my case where I would be going through a lot of filters in my dusty enviorment it's worth it. IMO
02-24-2006, 04:02 PM
#25
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Yeah I was looking for that as well but my point is if you plan on keeping the bike, it's not hurting the performance enough to really notice. 1.3 ft lbs is not enough to notice not to mention that much change could happen just with ambient temp. In my case where I would be going through a lot of filters in my dusty enviorment it's worth it. IMO
02-24-2006, 05:01 PM
#26
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I don't trust a filter I can see through.
I'd rather have clean air going to my engine.
I've seen a test where a regular filter was placed after a K&N and the after filter got dirty fast!
I'd rather have clean air going to my engine.
I've seen a test where a regular filter was placed after a K&N and the after filter got dirty fast!
02-24-2006, 05:16 PM
#27
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Was it properly oiled? I've had mine for hmmm at least 5 years now and have never had any clogged carbs or any other related problems. since I've owned it I've lived on one dirt road that was 3/4 of a mile and another that is 1/4 mile long. If there was going to be a problem I think I would've experienced it by now.
02-24-2006, 08:02 PM
#28
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Re: Anybody have any proof a K&N filter improves perform
My SH has a K&N filter, along with the Indigo Sports exhaust and has been jetted. All those mods were on it when I bought it. The PO was a factory trained bike mechanic. It all seems to work pretty well, so I leave it alone.
I'm a moderator, and spend a lot of time, at a Ford truck site. This subject comes up there fairly regularly.
I had one of those air intake kits (the shiny chrome pipe to replace the black plastic thing) and a K&N filter on my previous F150.
I bought it new, kept it 6 years and sold it right at 170,000 miles. It was still running good as new. it really was in great shape - kinda' hate I sold it
I had several used oil analysis performed over the 6 year period and had good data to compar: K&N -vs- pleated paper. The wear metals and silicon levels (i.e. dirt) tended to be better with the oiled media filter than with paper. The numbers were never worse with the oiled media.
I have read a lot on this subject and am dubious about the "gain 12 HP" type claims. Marketing hype IMO.
I am equally as dubious about the claims that the oiled media filters will ruin an engine. 'Taint so, again IMO (and data backed experience).
I always checked the inside of the plenum for dust when I was washing / oiling the filter on my truck. It remained clean as a pin and was that way when I sold it.
I like an the oiled media filter. I like being able to wash and reuse it. I like that they work good.
Do I think one wil give you a big boost in power? Nope.
I'm a moderator, and spend a lot of time, at a Ford truck site. This subject comes up there fairly regularly.
I had one of those air intake kits (the shiny chrome pipe to replace the black plastic thing) and a K&N filter on my previous F150.
I bought it new, kept it 6 years and sold it right at 170,000 miles. It was still running good as new. it really was in great shape - kinda' hate I sold it
I had several used oil analysis performed over the 6 year period and had good data to compar: K&N -vs- pleated paper. The wear metals and silicon levels (i.e. dirt) tended to be better with the oiled media filter than with paper. The numbers were never worse with the oiled media.
I have read a lot on this subject and am dubious about the "gain 12 HP" type claims. Marketing hype IMO.
I am equally as dubious about the claims that the oiled media filters will ruin an engine. 'Taint so, again IMO (and data backed experience).
I always checked the inside of the plenum for dust when I was washing / oiling the filter on my truck. It remained clean as a pin and was that way when I sold it.
I like an the oiled media filter. I like being able to wash and reuse it. I like that they work good.
Do I think one wil give you a big boost in power? Nope.
