6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
01-08-2005, 07:54 PM
#1
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6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
I had HH pads and SS lines on the stock calipers but still wasn't real happy with them. I previously had an F4i and a VFR vtec that both stopped harder and with better feel. So when I saw someone had done this GSXR mod, I thought I'd give it a shot.
These came off an '02 GSXR1000. Getting them wasn't easy as they are a very popular upgrade with the 600/750 gixxer crowd. I was lucky enough to score a complete setup with SS lines sans the lever. Note: '03 and above are the newer radial design and WON'T work.
Everything bolted right up. The only exception was the resevoir. I was able to rotate the bracket and utilize one of the perch bolts. Unfortuantely, the gixxer SS lines were too short with my higher handlebars and I think they would still be too short with the stock bars. So I used the VTR SS lines which I also need to rotate at the upper banjo bolt. They are on the wrong side of the perch lock (DOH!). Got in a hurry.....
Eagle eyes will note that I was even able to use the 'Hawks lever; however, the part that actually pushes on the master cylinder was too long. In the levers "rest" position, it was still pressing on the m/c and actuating the brakes (not good!). I ground it down for the necessary clearance as I didn't want to wait for a gixxer lever.
How do they work? While at speed on a lonely back road, I did some "Can I stop before "X" location?" scenarios that I like to do for practice. Just pick a random spot in the road, etc. I was easily stopping WAY short of what I usually felt comfortable with on the stock brakes. Yeah, I know not very scientific but I was really surprised by the difference.
Sorry, I didn't try the 6 piston calipers with the VTR m/c to see how effective that combo would be. NOTE: Don't try the older (mid-90's on up) "black" six piston tokicos (some were gold too!). These have a 3.5 inch mounting bolt spread as opposed to the approx 2.5 in on the hawk. These are more abundant as they were used by both Suzuki and Kawasaki on their big bore bikes over several years.
These came off an '02 GSXR1000. Getting them wasn't easy as they are a very popular upgrade with the 600/750 gixxer crowd. I was lucky enough to score a complete setup with SS lines sans the lever. Note: '03 and above are the newer radial design and WON'T work.
Everything bolted right up. The only exception was the resevoir. I was able to rotate the bracket and utilize one of the perch bolts. Unfortuantely, the gixxer SS lines were too short with my higher handlebars and I think they would still be too short with the stock bars. So I used the VTR SS lines which I also need to rotate at the upper banjo bolt. They are on the wrong side of the perch lock (DOH!). Got in a hurry.....
Eagle eyes will note that I was even able to use the 'Hawks lever; however, the part that actually pushes on the master cylinder was too long. In the levers "rest" position, it was still pressing on the m/c and actuating the brakes (not good!). I ground it down for the necessary clearance as I didn't want to wait for a gixxer lever.
How do they work? While at speed on a lonely back road, I did some "Can I stop before "X" location?" scenarios that I like to do for practice. Just pick a random spot in the road, etc. I was easily stopping WAY short of what I usually felt comfortable with on the stock brakes. Yeah, I know not very scientific but I was really surprised by the difference.
Sorry, I didn't try the 6 piston calipers with the VTR m/c to see how effective that combo would be. NOTE: Don't try the older (mid-90's on up) "black" six piston tokicos (some were gold too!). These have a 3.5 inch mounting bolt spread as opposed to the approx 2.5 in on the hawk. These are more abundant as they were used by both Suzuki and Kawasaki on their big bore bikes over several years.
01-08-2005, 11:53 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
BTW. You need to get the setup from an 02 GSXR 1000.
a well known internet junkyard sent me a set of 00-01 (Calipers, rotors and MC) and they do NOT work. Caliper bolt pattern is different as is the rotors (they are 100% stright, so the rotors don't come "out" from the wheel).
a well known internet junkyard sent me a set of 00-01 (Calipers, rotors and MC) and they do NOT work. Caliper bolt pattern is different as is the rotors (they are 100% stright, so the rotors don't come "out" from the wheel).
01-09-2005, 07:26 AM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Hmmm.
I talked to this guy who has an 01 set of calipers and he said they bolted up.
Ebay Item number: 4516514816
Maybe it's your combination of rotors/calipers that make it not work?
I talked to this guy who has an 01 set of calipers and he said they bolted up.
Ebay Item number: 4516514816
Maybe it's your combination of rotors/calipers that make it not work?
01-09-2005, 11:59 AM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Hey superbling....
Just wondering if you used the stock VTR rotors or switched to the Gixer rotors... I've been looking to upgrade my front brakes as well... (was looking to mount up a 954 MC and whatnot....) Thanks.
J.
Just wondering if you used the stock VTR rotors or switched to the Gixer rotors... I've been looking to upgrade my front brakes as well... (was looking to mount up a 954 MC and whatnot....) Thanks.
J.
01-09-2005, 12:15 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
SlowHawk,
Stock rotors.
I saw pics here somewhere of F4i calipers that someone had put on but they had to do some grinding. Not sure if it was the calipers or fork mounts.
Random,
Did your calipers look like these? These are the older '90's design I'm warning others not to try. I upgraded to these on my Suzuki B12S.
Stock rotors.
I saw pics here somewhere of F4i calipers that someone had put on but they had to do some grinding. Not sure if it was the calipers or fork mounts.
Random,
Did your calipers look like these? These are the older '90's design I'm warning others not to try. I upgraded to these on my Suzuki B12S.
01-09-2005, 05:38 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
I'm the guy with the F4i calipers and master cylinder. I got the whole setup on eBay for 50-60 bucks. I did have to grind a little on the underside of the caliper to get it to clear the mounting bracket on the VTR fork. I very carefull ground a little at a time off the calipers until they would fit, making sure not to remove too much material from the caliper. I'm pretty happy with them; better brakes are available, but these can't be beat for the price, and stopping power and lever feel are both improved. I'm still using the stock F4i pads that came in the calipers I bought from eBay. I imagine braking will be a little better with aftermarket pads, although I have always been happy with the OEM sintered Honda pads. 
01-09-2005, 05:48 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
OK. I finally figured out how to get the photo to show up in my post. You can see that it's a tight fit between the underside of the caliper and the mounting bracket on the fork. Better feel and braking power and these calipers are a few ounces lighter than the stock VTR calipers.
[web:659788b41c]https://www.superhawkforum.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=55[/web:659788b41c]
[web:659788b41c]https://www.superhawkforum.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=55[/web:659788b41c]
01-13-2005, 10:01 AM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Hey all...
No to highjack the thread too much, but was wondering if anyone has tried the 929/954 or RVT calipers... are they any different (bigger/better) than the VTR's stockers? And I guess the second questions is... will they bolt right up? Thanks in advance....
J.
BTW... my plan is to switch the master cylinder as well... was wondering if it was worth getting a whole setup (954 mc and calipers)
No to highjack the thread too much, but was wondering if anyone has tried the 929/954 or RVT calipers... are they any different (bigger/better) than the VTR's stockers? And I guess the second questions is... will they bolt right up? Thanks in advance....
J.
BTW... my plan is to switch the master cylinder as well... was wondering if it was worth getting a whole setup (954 mc and calipers)
01-13-2005, 01:33 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Here's my take, but just remember I don't have hard numbers and I haven't tried the 954 calipers.
The 929, 954 and F4i calipers are externally identical except for color, so I would imagine that you will have to do a little grinding on the 954 calipers to make them fit the Superhawk, but I'm not absolutely certain. I believe leverage ratios are different for all--master cylinder piston sizes differ and caliper piston sizes differ, so replacing both the calipers and the master cylinder together is recommended. I did this with the F4i parts on my 'Hawk and I like the results. I have heard that the complete 954 setup is even better.
Also, I tried swapping the 3/4" (19mm) master cylinder from the 954 (or was it the 929?) for the stock Hawk mc (14mm) using the stock Hawk calipers and did not like the results. Others have spoken highly of this combination when using EBC HH pads, but I didn't try the pads and I found the lever firmer than stock but the effort required for hard stopping was more than I like.
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the F4i parts and probably would be just as happy with the complete 954 or 929 setup.
Riccardo, who used to post to the RLZ list, compiled a database of the master cylinder and caliper piston sizes for the various Honda models from every year they were made, but I don't know where that information is now.
The 929, 954 and F4i calipers are externally identical except for color, so I would imagine that you will have to do a little grinding on the 954 calipers to make them fit the Superhawk, but I'm not absolutely certain. I believe leverage ratios are different for all--master cylinder piston sizes differ and caliper piston sizes differ, so replacing both the calipers and the master cylinder together is recommended. I did this with the F4i parts on my 'Hawk and I like the results. I have heard that the complete 954 setup is even better.
Also, I tried swapping the 3/4" (19mm) master cylinder from the 954 (or was it the 929?) for the stock Hawk mc (14mm) using the stock Hawk calipers and did not like the results. Others have spoken highly of this combination when using EBC HH pads, but I didn't try the pads and I found the lever firmer than stock but the effort required for hard stopping was more than I like.
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the F4i parts and probably would be just as happy with the complete 954 or 929 setup.
Riccardo, who used to post to the RLZ list, compiled a database of the master cylinder and caliper piston sizes for the various Honda models from every year they were made, but I don't know where that information is now.
01-13-2005, 05:29 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
killer5280,
Cool thanks for the info. I've been Ebay/Web searching to find a setup that makes sense for me. The calipers seem to be a dime a dozen, but the Master Cylinder seems to be the tougher part to find, but they are out there. I'll probably just pick up the calipers to match whatever master cylinder (F4i/929/954) I finally get.
J.
Cool thanks for the info. I've been Ebay/Web searching to find a setup that makes sense for me. The calipers seem to be a dime a dozen, but the Master Cylinder seems to be the tougher part to find, but they are out there. I'll probably just pick up the calipers to match whatever master cylinder (F4i/929/954) I finally get.
J.
01-14-2005, 03:32 PM
#12
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
While the shawks brakes are decent, they arn't exactly to my liking. I prefer my brakes be much more aggressive (think r1)
Would you say that this is a better improvement in braking then switching to braded lines? How does the master cyl swap compare?
Would you say that this is a better improvement in braking then switching to braded lines? How does the master cyl swap compare?
01-14-2005, 04:21 PM
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With the MC and caliper swap I find the brakes to be much improved over the stock setup. The lever is firmer and there is still plenty of power with two fingers. I haven't ridden an R1, but I have ridden a CBR600RR and the brakes on my Superhawk aren't as good as the RR. Still, I don't really have any complaints. Stock, the thing that bothered me about the Superhawk brakes was the spongy feel at the lever and that's gone with the F4i parts.
I think pads play a big part in the "aggressiveness" of a brake system. Some of the aftermarket sintered pads give an immediate "bite" that most people like.
I definitely think that the MC/caliper swap gives more improvement than braided lines.
I think pads play a big part in the "aggressiveness" of a brake system. Some of the aftermarket sintered pads give an immediate "bite" that most people like.
I definitely think that the MC/caliper swap gives more improvement than braided lines.
01-17-2005, 04:49 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Hey yall,
Just my 2 cents worth on the subject of brakes. I got my superhawk in May of 04. It had 38,000 miles on it. It now has 52,000 miles. My last bike was a new 1976 RD 400c, so I certainly dont speak with any experience on modern superbike brakes. A few days ago I replaced what appear to be the original pads with a set of SBS pads. The difference was signifcantly more than I expected. The initial bite is much better and braking is mostly a "one finger" affair now. I expected at least a few miles of less performance while the new pads bedded in but they were better than the original after just a few stops. I don't know if this is a universal experience , just mine.
Later
Rick
Just my 2 cents worth on the subject of brakes. I got my superhawk in May of 04. It had 38,000 miles on it. It now has 52,000 miles. My last bike was a new 1976 RD 400c, so I certainly dont speak with any experience on modern superbike brakes. A few days ago I replaced what appear to be the original pads with a set of SBS pads. The difference was signifcantly more than I expected. The initial bite is much better and braking is mostly a "one finger" affair now. I expected at least a few miles of less performance while the new pads bedded in but they were better than the original after just a few stops. I don't know if this is a universal experience , just mine.
Later
Rick
01-21-2005, 10:51 AM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
I'm seriously interested. Bought the calipers already and am now looking for the master cylinder and lever. I'll probably use my old lines, as the guy before me put on these awesome german lines that cost like $250.
01-30-2005, 02:10 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
I am definitely interested in making this mod, I am about to redo my carbs with a jet kit as well as update the seals in the rear cylinder so the bike will be down anyhow, I might as well update the brakes. currently already have the braided lines. please give any info you may have on making the change.
01-30-2005, 06:28 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
I'd like to complete this mod in the next two months. Have my eye on an e-bay auction now, but it says '01-'02 gsxr1000 calipers. Two other guys I found are offering up their stock calipers for 100bucks, not sure how good a price this is.
If you have any further info. I'd appreciate it. I am currently using a honda929 m/c with braided lines, just looking for a bit more power for track use.
If you have any further info. I'd appreciate it. I am currently using a honda929 m/c with braided lines, just looking for a bit more power for track use.
01-30-2005, 07:27 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
I'm not sure what else to add to what I've all ready said.
I used a complete '02 1000 setup minus the lever. It came with SS lines but they were too short with my taller VFR bars and I think they would still be too short with the stock bars. I'm using the VTR SS lines I all ready had. I had to mod my VTR lever for minor clearance just becuz I didn't want to wait and order a suzuki one. Even the suzuki brake light sensor hooked up to the VTR's wires (the switch looks to be identical).
It bolts right up to the SuperHawk rotors and I can do 2 finger stoppies quite easily (I've never been good at them) and I think I still have some air in the lines. :wink:
As for the prices, I've seen quite few sets of calipers only go around the $125 region and full systems for $150 plus. I got mine for considerably less and I now feel incredibly lucky. I'm sure you don't want to hear that......
I used a complete '02 1000 setup minus the lever. It came with SS lines but they were too short with my taller VFR bars and I think they would still be too short with the stock bars. I'm using the VTR SS lines I all ready had. I had to mod my VTR lever for minor clearance just becuz I didn't want to wait and order a suzuki one. Even the suzuki brake light sensor hooked up to the VTR's wires (the switch looks to be identical).
It bolts right up to the SuperHawk rotors and I can do 2 finger stoppies quite easily (I've never been good at them) and I think I still have some air in the lines. :wink:
As for the prices, I've seen quite few sets of calipers only go around the $125 region and full systems for $150 plus. I got mine for considerably less and I now feel incredibly lucky. I'm sure you don't want to hear that......
01-30-2005, 07:55 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Doug, thanks a bunch for the info, can't wait to get my hands on a set of calipers to give them a try. I only posted up and asked for any more info. based on your post above, thought maybe you were hanging on to some details or something. I'll post up if I get this mod. completed.
01-31-2005, 06:18 AM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
VTRDarren,
I'd say if you can get the set of Gixer calipers for 100 bucks, you might want to go for it if your in a hurry. I've watched EBAY for about 4-5 weeks looking for a set... only once did one go under 100 (I think it was like 89 bucks)... and more often than not, they are in the 125 and up range. I eventually said forget it and just picked up a brake setup off a RC51 (MC and calipers) for a fraction of that cost that I'll be it mounting up shortly.
J.
I'd say if you can get the set of Gixer calipers for 100 bucks, you might want to go for it if your in a hurry. I've watched EBAY for about 4-5 weeks looking for a set... only once did one go under 100 (I think it was like 89 bucks)... and more often than not, they are in the 125 and up range. I eventually said forget it and just picked up a brake setup off a RC51 (MC and calipers) for a fraction of that cost that I'll be it mounting up shortly.
J.
02-02-2005, 08:45 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Thanks for the tips guys,... .Yeah, also noticed that the e-bay stuff is going for over 100 bucks. I ended up finding a local guy i ride with who had a set off his '01 gsxr1000 that he sold me for fifty bucks... just have to pick them up sometime soon.
If anyone is looking for a set that is DEF. from an 01 or 02 let me know. I had at least three guys offer up calipers from the WERA discussion list in the 100-120 range. I can forward along their contact info. if you're seriously looking to buy. PM me. I'll post up when I fit up the calipers...
If anyone is looking for a set that is DEF. from an 01 or 02 let me know. I had at least three guys offer up calipers from the WERA discussion list in the 100-120 range. I can forward along their contact info. if you're seriously looking to buy. PM me. I'll post up when I fit up the calipers...
02-03-2005, 08:39 AM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
I won't be using the stock m/c. I already have the larger bore 929 m/c mounted on the bike with braided lines and EBC HH pads...I'm just looking for a bit more power and less fade for the track. Plus they look cool..hehe..
I'm hoping the 929m/c and 6pot calipers work out well. I'll post up when I get 'er done.
I'm hoping the 929m/c and 6pot calipers work out well. I'll post up when I get 'er done.
03-01-2005, 11:12 AM
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Superbling, the pic you posted of the 6-pots seems to show that the lower piston is not lined up with the rotor. Is this just the angle of the pic, or does the caliper actually not lign up perfectly with the rotor??
I haven't picked up the calipers from my friend yet, just thought I'd ask since you've done this mod already.
Thanks
I haven't picked up the calipers from my friend yet, just thought I'd ask since you've done this mod already.
Thanks
03-01-2005, 05:32 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
VTRDarren - The last piston does hang over a bit I had the same set-up on my VTR. I now have a CBR929 front end and run the GSXR1000 calipers and they line up perfectly.
03-01-2005, 07:07 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Yes, it appears the lower piston's outside edge (red arrow) is close but I think it's a point of view kind of thing. I now have between 1500-2000 miles on them and both the rotors and pads show no unusual wear (pulled the right tonight for the pics). Also, the actual pistons have a smaller OD than the caliper "pots" your looking at.
The yellow arrow in first photo shows the wear zone on rotors, both the outside and inside 3 millimeters or so aren't "clean".
The arrows in the second file point to the outsides of the pads that would be off the rotor if not in alignment. I see no difference compared to the rest of the pad.
And that's all I know about that. (gump voice).....
The yellow arrow in first photo shows the wear zone on rotors, both the outside and inside 3 millimeters or so aren't "clean".
The arrows in the second file point to the outsides of the pads that would be off the rotor if not in alignment. I see no difference compared to the rest of the pad.
And that's all I know about that. (gump voice).....
03-01-2005, 07:14 PM
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Re: 6 Piston Brakes 1 finger stopping power!
Doug, you rock!! Thanks for going to all that trouble in answering my question.. I'll be picking up the calipers soon, now with more confidence in the fitment.
