jschmidt

Not actually.

bluesman

There is so much talk about CCTs recently - let me share something I hope might be useful. Apologies if not.
I haven't had CCT problem on my bike (40 000 km 1997), but since I bought Shawk I catched "CCT paranoia" from my colleagues on UK VTR site and I spent first winter playing around CCT problem. I changed and gave some beating to 2 kits of CCTs (original 97 and latest), adapted Kawasaki ZZR1100 "ratchet-type" CCT for Shawk and run few hundred kms with it, removed spring from old CCT and ran bike for few km like that etc.
IMHO I disagree that there is no warnings if you do listen to your bike.
1. Sound is very very distinctive when you have slack in camtrain, tested and heard on my bike with deliberately slacked camtrain (fixing CCT in position preventing full expansion), sound heard well even thou I have extremely loud Arrows race exhaust.
2. When spring removed CCT rod does not go back easy, it needs a very considerable effort, since it is worm (is it correct term in English?) screw and as normal for this system is "self-locking" at least a bit. Tested.
3. Despite very high forces in camtrain in VTR, there is practically no tension on "rear" line of cam chain unless you do go into overrun. This is fact for all chain drives. Back then I calculated exact tension on rear line of camchain, and it's very very low. More overruns = more risk.
4. I never managed to reach full expansion of stock CCT on my bike, it still have good 2,5-3 cm movement in it, while for example Kawasaki ZZR CCT that I tried has less than half lenght movement of that Honda CCT alltogether. If your CCT fully expanded - your camtrain took horrible beating and need overhaul, do not blame CCT.
5. My local Honda garage is aware (by experience) that CCT on Shawks need change every 30 000 km to prevent problems and they do it by default.
6. If you took your CCT apart and then put them back together there is very big chance you need to throw them away, because assembly allows some almost unmeasurable in "home garage" deviations of preload of CCT spring - this is why CCTs sold pre-loaded and locked.
7. If you let your CCT expand fully when out of engine and then "loaded" them again you also have had chance to create potential failure (spring fell out if slot, preload changed etc.)
8. Even ratchet CCTs on Kawasaki's fail sometimes, when ratchet get stuck because of dirt, and when ratchet small bits get dirty and ratchet lock slips. I have had chance to imitate it on my test setup. But ZZR CCTs really less prone to failure because of ratchet.
9. Manual CCTs increase wear of camtrain and camchain guides - this is what I've been told by guys who "race" on Busa's (where manual APE CCT is first step to prepare bike for race but only for race).
10. I believe that solution used by my UK colleagues (few of us came to it independently) is a best compromise for the moment: original latest CCT with "screw lock" by means of slotted bolt in CCT cap bolt hole.

Sorry for long write-up....

caffeineracer

Thanks for the write up Bluesman, couple of things.


9. Manual CCTs increase wear of camtrain and camchain guides -

I don't beleive this is true if you've adjusted the manuals properly.
Set them up to take the slack out and nothing more.
This is easily done by slowly backing off the adjustment CCW while the engine is idling till they just make noise. then adjusting CW till the noise just stops.
Remember your not actually preloading the chain!
(automatic tensioners preload the chain)
Your only taking the slack out. (CW adjustment till noise stops, and no more CW, then lock down the nut)
I doubt you'll ever have to adjust them again, because during valve adustments, when you pull the cams, you simply unbolt the whole manual tensioner without disturbing the adjustment.
I believe manuals give you less friction and wear in the whole valve train ,chain, chain guides, and bearings.


10. I believe that solution used by my UK colleagues (few of us came to it independently) is a best compromise for the moment: original latest CCT with "screw lock" by means of slotted bolt in CCT cap bolt hole.

The "slotted bolt" solution works, I've tried it, but I think it's a little too 'techique sensitive' for a lot of guys.
Remember, you can't just tighten a 6mm bolt in there and expect to lock the adjustment or prevent the adjustment from backing out.
It needs a bolt ground to fit the slots _full depth_.
It needs to be in the proper range of adjustment while the bolt/slot is engaged.
Then it can be locked with a 'lock nut' and works like a manual.

~Jeffers

bluesman

You probably right about "wear" thing - this is what those Busa-boys told me, but they do it for drag racing, so may be they just tighten it all up to different specs...or may be it is down to fact that APE CCT does not have rubber vibration dampener on rod...don;t know.

For "slot bolt" solution - yes, sorry - I did not mention details because I saw instruction on that method posted here already...sure, you have to do all that....there was an quick video on that posted by UK guys. I'll try to find it back. I am still trying to figure out how to keep self-adjusting process...that's why I went for ZZR CCTs....One other thing that concerns me in this solution is that you have to do good job preventing oil leak from CCT with this solution... So - no, not perfect either...

NOrrTH

As of today's date the paint dot code on the stock auto cam chain tensioner is a fleshy orange color

Yardstick

Any idea what the original paint dot color was for a 1998 Superhawk? I took a look at mine since I just bought a bike with 28k miles and the paint dot looks white. I don't know if that's faded from the orange color or maybe just the original. Is the part number stamped or cast on them somewhere? Can I check the extension of the tensioner(s) without having to replace gaskets? The bike sounds a little funny to me sometimes, but this is my first sportbike and first v-twin. I'm used to single-cylinder dirtbikes and car engines.

AZZKIKER

My original CCTs from 1998 model had a white dot on them.

Yardstick

Craptacular! So... Does anyone know what Honda did to "improve" the "tensioner lifter"? Do they still need to be replaced at 20-40k mile intervals or so? It seems like even if a manual CCT has drawbacks in having to adjust it frequently or needing a sensitive touch to adjust, it would be beneficial in that you could keep an eye on the cam chain stretch indirectly by the amount of adjustment left. I'm kinda leaning toward manual ones unless there's a compelling reason to go with the auto's.

Yardstick

Since I didn't see a response and couldn't find any information I decided to call Honda. Their customer service rep said there was never a tech bulletin or recall on the part. They called the product specialist for the VTR and that person didn’t have any information either. They said sometimes part numbers change if the packaging changes or they change warehouses (basically if any small thing changes). So the part number change could be for something as little as the new orange paint dot. Keep an eye on your tensioners.

Service Honda sells the tensioner for ~$48.50 and gaskets for ~$1.50

AZZKIKER

I have a used one that has a pink dot on it. I can sell it real cheap 10$ or so if you want it let me know.

redsuperhawk

FYI, I have about 18,000 miles on my 98, and the cam chain tensioner went out last year. There was a GOD AWFUL rattle when it happened. I got lucky that no other damage was done.

Jeff
redsuperhawk

Yardstick

I'm not going to take the chance on a used one or the ones that are on the bike. I know it's got 28,000 on the odo and white paint dots on the tensioners. I ordered new ones (from Service Honda) for the cheap insurance against this type of failure.

I had the cam chain stretch beyond the service limit on my XR600 a few years ago. That thing caused me all kinds of problems and made a bunch of bad noise and quit a few times randomly. Somehow I managed to get lucky and not completely grenade the engine.

sprhawk neil