Valve clearance
10-14-2008, 08:50 PM
#1
REDUNDANCY DEPT. HEAD
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Madison, MS
Posts: 9
Valve clearance
I am checking to valve clearance on my 98 Hawk with 28000 miles. They have never been checked before. Believe it our not, all are nearly perfect except for one intake on front cylinder. Intake should be .006" + 001 or .16mm + .03. That one intake is .004. Just outside the allowable limit. This is on the front cylinder. Here is my question... Should I pull that cam (what a pain in the ***) to shim that valve by ,002 of an inch?
I am quite pleased to see that all but this one valve are nearly spot on after all those miles. Great stuff. Honda does do some things right (we won't mention things like CCT's or stock seat removal or lazy fork springs or how damn hard it is to get those cams back in and timed up...). But, would you pullem for .002 of an inch? Any valve cleance adjustment horror stories? No, wait, I don't want to know...
Thanks in advance for your help.
__________________________________________________ ______________
I feel more like I do right now than I ever have before.
I am quite pleased to see that all but this one valve are nearly spot on after all those miles. Great stuff. Honda does do some things right (we won't mention things like CCT's or stock seat removal or lazy fork springs or how damn hard it is to get those cams back in and timed up...). But, would you pullem for .002 of an inch? Any valve cleance adjustment horror stories? No, wait, I don't want to know...
Thanks in advance for your help.
__________________________________________________ ______________
I feel more like I do right now than I ever have before.
10-15-2008, 07:21 AM
#3
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 807
The front cylinder is the nasty one when it comes to valve inspection and adjustment. You're already in there. It would be best to do it now unless your VTR is your sole means of transportation and you want to do the job when the riding season is over.
10-15-2008, 09:20 AM
#4
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
I'm with Jim.
A couple things to note:
DO NOT remove the cam chain tensioner until the timing mark is lined up on the cams. It doesn't really hurt anything, but if the valves are open when the CCT is removed, the cams will spin and the valves will slam shut. If your friends are watching, it won't look professional.
The cam bearing caps are aligned with dowels and take some wiggling to get them off. Be careful, you don't want to distort the faces of the caps by binding on the dowels.
The valve lifters will pull right out with a magnet. Keep your eye on the shim. Sometimes it stays on top of the valve. Sometimes it comes out with the lifter. A lot of times if you place the magnet over the center of the lifter, you can get the shim to come with it.
Make sure you lube the bolt faces and use a good torque wrench putting it back together. Torque them down in an alternating pattern in 2-3 passes.
It should be a straightforward, satisfying project if you take your time.
A couple things to note:
DO NOT remove the cam chain tensioner until the timing mark is lined up on the cams. It doesn't really hurt anything, but if the valves are open when the CCT is removed, the cams will spin and the valves will slam shut. If your friends are watching, it won't look professional.
The cam bearing caps are aligned with dowels and take some wiggling to get them off. Be careful, you don't want to distort the faces of the caps by binding on the dowels.
The valve lifters will pull right out with a magnet. Keep your eye on the shim. Sometimes it stays on top of the valve. Sometimes it comes out with the lifter. A lot of times if you place the magnet over the center of the lifter, you can get the shim to come with it.
Make sure you lube the bolt faces and use a good torque wrench putting it back together. Torque them down in an alternating pattern in 2-3 passes.
It should be a straightforward, satisfying project if you take your time.
10-15-2008, 10:38 AM
#5
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,802
I agree with the posters above and will add for you to remember that you won't have to do it again for a long, long time, if ever.
Also, my local mechanic (who I have known for 30 years) will swap shims out with me, making this a no cost job. You might have someone in your town who will do the same.
Also, my local mechanic (who I have known for 30 years) will swap shims out with me, making this a no cost job. You might have someone in your town who will do the same.
10-15-2008, 02:33 PM
#6
guru of things sparky
SuperSport
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Grand Prairie , Texas
Posts: 599
Once a motor has that many miles on it, they wont be tightening up very much more, as Killer5280 said. Suprising that they have never been adjusted before. Usually they need adjustment after break-in or not far afterward, and in the case of shim-under-bucket Honda motors, its about the only adjustment they will need for 20,000 miles.
If you ride them really hard ( Racing ) Ive seen them go both ways, Loosening and getting tighter... and require closer adjustment intervals.
I guess it has a lot to do with how the oils been taken care of, how fast it gets revved, and especially if crappy low octane fuel has been used a lot ( affects valve seat wear )
If you ride them really hard ( Racing ) Ive seen them go both ways, Loosening and getting tighter... and require closer adjustment intervals.
I guess it has a lot to do with how the oils been taken care of, how fast it gets revved, and especially if crappy low octane fuel has been used a lot ( affects valve seat wear )
01-01-2009, 05:29 PM
#8
REDUNDANCY DEPT. HEAD
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Madison, MS
Posts: 9
Pain in the ...
I did go ahead and pull the cam so i could adjust the clearance. And, as one of the others commented, my local dealer was willing to swap shims with me at no cost. The hard part was that these are not the most common diameter shims that Honda uses and the size I needed was kinda hard to find. But, we were able to find the right size, eventually...
Oh, you wanted tips... here's one: just as many users of this site have suggested, use zip-tyes to hold the chain on to the sproket. If you don't have to worry about the timing at the cam, the only other place it can move is at the crank. And, given that the chain wraps nearly all way round the sproket on the crank, it is not likey (I did say "not likely") to move there. Just one less thing to worry about.
However, I whole heatedly DIS-AGREE with one of the other commenters on this thread that suggested that the task would be "satisfying". What a royal pain in the ***. The commenter must be one of these guys that builds ships in a bottle with his eyes closed while sniffing antifreeze or enjoys sitting on the floor and shoving his fingers in to dark crevises with sharp edges, while blindfolded... One of the cam sproket bolts (I know this sounds strange but I swear it happened) came out cross-threaded... While trying to clean up the treads in the cam for a new bolt, I dropped a tap and of course it fell down the timing chain alley. Luckely, I was able to fish it out. Had to go shopping for 1 (one) - metric - hardened - odd threaded (don't remember the exact thread but it added another hour to the search) - bolt, on a Saterday afternoon (local Honda shop closed at noon) - in Jackson (read "Podunk") Mississippi. Believe it or not, I actually found one... in, of all places, the last place I looked, a Bait Shop/Lawnmower Repair.
I have drawn one (at least I think) very important conclusion from all of this, though... Even with brand new cam chain adjusters and known good valve gaps, these motors still make LOTS of mechanical noise.!!! They just do. So, just get used to it, ride it like ya stole it and enjoy (just keep freash, clean "MOTORCYCLE OIL" in it). I rode just shy of 200 miles on it this afternoon and loved every minute of it.
It may be a pain in the *** to work on, but... I LOVE MY SUPERHAWK.
Oh, you wanted tips... here's one: just as many users of this site have suggested, use zip-tyes to hold the chain on to the sproket. If you don't have to worry about the timing at the cam, the only other place it can move is at the crank. And, given that the chain wraps nearly all way round the sproket on the crank, it is not likey (I did say "not likely") to move there. Just one less thing to worry about.
However, I whole heatedly DIS-AGREE with one of the other commenters on this thread that suggested that the task would be "satisfying". What a royal pain in the ***. The commenter must be one of these guys that builds ships in a bottle with his eyes closed while sniffing antifreeze or enjoys sitting on the floor and shoving his fingers in to dark crevises with sharp edges, while blindfolded... One of the cam sproket bolts (I know this sounds strange but I swear it happened) came out cross-threaded... While trying to clean up the treads in the cam for a new bolt, I dropped a tap and of course it fell down the timing chain alley. Luckely, I was able to fish it out. Had to go shopping for 1 (one) - metric - hardened - odd threaded (don't remember the exact thread but it added another hour to the search) - bolt, on a Saterday afternoon (local Honda shop closed at noon) - in Jackson (read "Podunk") Mississippi. Believe it or not, I actually found one... in, of all places, the last place I looked, a Bait Shop/Lawnmower Repair.
I have drawn one (at least I think) very important conclusion from all of this, though... Even with brand new cam chain adjusters and known good valve gaps, these motors still make LOTS of mechanical noise.!!! They just do. So, just get used to it, ride it like ya stole it and enjoy (just keep freash, clean "MOTORCYCLE OIL" in it). I rode just shy of 200 miles on it this afternoon and loved every minute of it.
It may be a pain in the *** to work on, but... I LOVE MY SUPERHAWK.
Last edited by MACdADDYBD1; 01-01-2009 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Spelling?
01-01-2009, 05:38 PM
#9
mildly retarded
SuperBike
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,278
"The commenter must be one of these guys that builds ships in a bottle with his eyes closed while sniffing antifreeze or enjoys sitting on the floor and shoving his fingers in to dark crevises with sharp edges, while blindfolded..."
hilarious!
hilarious!
01-01-2009, 08:26 PM
#10
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 3,451
I pulled a manual transmission on a 1990 Acura Integra to replace the clutch at 60,000 miles (female owner with a teenage son at that time) a little over 10 years ago. Well one of the trans to engine mounting bolts broke off. I had to get our welding instructor to arc weld the head back on so I could remove it. When I got the bolt out, I saw it had been forced in at an angle cross threading it. Since the trans had never been pulled before, Honda did it during assembly. Nobody's perfect, but it sure pisses you off.
01-01-2009, 10:26 PM
#11
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 807
Congratulations on your perseverance.
APE CCT's make the job a bit easier. Put the piston of the cylinder you're working on at TDC on the compression stroke. Measure the distance the CCT adjustment bolt protrudes from the base. Record the measurement. Put a cable tie on the sprocket of the cam you aren’t going to remove. I also mark a link of the cam chain and the corresponding tooth of the cam sprocket of the cam that is going to be removed. I use a dab of my wife’s nail polish. Anything that won’t flake off and can be easily removed will do but the rich red colour of the nail polish has an erotic appeal for me. Slacken the adjustment bolt. It provides enough slack in the cam chain to allow the cam to be removed without taking the sprocket off. After you’ve changed the shim, match the mark on the cam chain with the mark on the sprocket when you put the cam back in. Install the cam. Tighten the CCT adjustment bolt using the measurement you recorded as a guide. Check the tension of the cam chain. Remove the cable tie. Turn the engine over by hand with the spark plugs removed. Check the clearance again. Give yourself a pat on the back.
APE CCT's make the job a bit easier. Put the piston of the cylinder you're working on at TDC on the compression stroke. Measure the distance the CCT adjustment bolt protrudes from the base. Record the measurement. Put a cable tie on the sprocket of the cam you aren’t going to remove. I also mark a link of the cam chain and the corresponding tooth of the cam sprocket of the cam that is going to be removed. I use a dab of my wife’s nail polish. Anything that won’t flake off and can be easily removed will do but the rich red colour of the nail polish has an erotic appeal for me. Slacken the adjustment bolt. It provides enough slack in the cam chain to allow the cam to be removed without taking the sprocket off. After you’ve changed the shim, match the mark on the cam chain with the mark on the sprocket when you put the cam back in. Install the cam. Tighten the CCT adjustment bolt using the measurement you recorded as a guide. Check the tension of the cam chain. Remove the cable tie. Turn the engine over by hand with the spark plugs removed. Check the clearance again. Give yourself a pat on the back.
01-02-2009, 07:29 AM
#12
Member
Squid
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
finishing valve adjustment, timing experience?
I am re-assembling the front cly.: shims, lifters, cam, holders, and cover. I ended up doing 3 of the 4 front valves, since I was there. Only 1 was out of spec, but the 2 exhaust had tightened up to the minimum.
I have both front cams and sprockets off and the chain hanging. The directions in the manual seem very easy to follow. Almost too easy for me, that's why I think I might not understand.
I understand lining up the back cyl. to let me know where the front should be, whith the timing marks facing out. When the chain is put on and the cam lobes are facing up, how does that make it exact? It seems like up when connecting the sprockets could easly be off a few degrees. Is this true, or am I missing something.
Thanks.
Darren
I have both front cams and sprockets off and the chain hanging. The directions in the manual seem very easy to follow. Almost too easy for me, that's why I think I might not understand.
I understand lining up the back cyl. to let me know where the front should be, whith the timing marks facing out. When the chain is put on and the cam lobes are facing up, how does that make it exact? It seems like up when connecting the sprockets could easly be off a few degrees. Is this true, or am I missing something.
Thanks.
Darren
01-02-2009, 09:05 AM
#13
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
10 weeks for a valve adjustment? That has to be a new record!
Darren - when you line up the timing marks on the rear cyclinder at TDC on the compression stroke, you will rotate the crank 450 degrees (1 rotation + 90 degrees) to get to TDC on the compression stroke in the front.
the timing marks on the cam gears should be close. Choose the tooth that gives the best alignment of the mark with the top of the head.
You need to retract the chain tensioners to install them. The first time I did it, i had to make the key to hold it retracted. When I bought new tensioners, the key was included. I never went the APE route.
Darren - when you line up the timing marks on the rear cyclinder at TDC on the compression stroke, you will rotate the crank 450 degrees (1 rotation + 90 degrees) to get to TDC on the compression stroke in the front.
the timing marks on the cam gears should be close. Choose the tooth that gives the best alignment of the mark with the top of the head.
You need to retract the chain tensioners to install them. The first time I did it, i had to make the key to hold it retracted. When I bought new tensioners, the key was included. I never went the APE route.
01-02-2009, 10:58 AM
#14
Member
Squid
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
I am not at 10 weeks, YET.
thanks for the info. The more I think about how it works - that sounds like it will all line up. Since I'll pick the spot that makes it close enough; I didn't know if that was good, or if might me out of time, if it wasn't exact.
i have the APEs, so retaction was easy.
Thanks.
Darren
thanks for the info. The more I think about how it works - that sounds like it will all line up. Since I'll pick the spot that makes it close enough; I didn't know if that was good, or if might me out of time, if it wasn't exact.
i have the APEs, so retaction was easy.
Thanks.
Darren
02-13-2009, 08:24 AM
#15
Junior Member
Squid
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2
just a note I picked up one with 40k on it and not running
after a bit of inspection and a compression check
front compression 30 psi rear 60 psi I started on the valves
all of the intakes were not closing, which means you need
to put in smaller shims re measure and do again.
the exhaust valves all were in spec. from looking at the cover
hardware my guess was they have never been adjusted.
so my advice would be to follow the 16k inspection routine
yes I know it is a pain. also you can buy a shim kit from hotcams
saved several trips to the dealer for me. I have run it a bit
and re shimmed the valves recessed another .001 after
some initial running, not a surprise really after being run open
probably some carbon on the seats.
now compression is 170 front 180 rear now and starts normally
I also installed the ape tensioners while in there
still lots of bits to repair this thing was totally abused.
anybody know about dampers in the fairing stay?
after a bit of inspection and a compression check
front compression 30 psi rear 60 psi I started on the valves
all of the intakes were not closing, which means you need
to put in smaller shims re measure and do again.
the exhaust valves all were in spec. from looking at the cover
hardware my guess was they have never been adjusted.
so my advice would be to follow the 16k inspection routine
yes I know it is a pain. also you can buy a shim kit from hotcams
saved several trips to the dealer for me. I have run it a bit
and re shimmed the valves recessed another .001 after
some initial running, not a surprise really after being run open
probably some carbon on the seats.
now compression is 170 front 180 rear now and starts normally
I also installed the ape tensioners while in there
still lots of bits to repair this thing was totally abused.
anybody know about dampers in the fairing stay?
02-13-2009, 09:03 AM
#16
Fastest Color
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 2,091
just a note I picked up one with 40k on it and not running
after a bit of inspection and a compression check
front compression 30 psi rear 60 psi I started on the valves
all of the intakes were not closing, which means you need
to put in smaller shims re measure and do again.
the exhaust valves all were in spec. from looking at the cover
hardware my guess was they have never been adjusted.
so my advice would be to follow the 16k inspection routine
yes I know it is a pain. also you can buy a shim kit from hotcams
saved several trips to the dealer for me. I have run it a bit
and re shimmed the valves recessed another .001 after
some initial running, not a surprise really after being run open
probably some carbon on the seats.
now compression is 170 front 180 rear now and starts normally
I also installed the ape tensioners while in there
still lots of bits to repair this thing was totally abused.
anybody know about dampers in the fairing stay?
after a bit of inspection and a compression check
front compression 30 psi rear 60 psi I started on the valves
all of the intakes were not closing, which means you need
to put in smaller shims re measure and do again.
the exhaust valves all were in spec. from looking at the cover
hardware my guess was they have never been adjusted.
so my advice would be to follow the 16k inspection routine
yes I know it is a pain. also you can buy a shim kit from hotcams
saved several trips to the dealer for me. I have run it a bit
and re shimmed the valves recessed another .001 after
some initial running, not a surprise really after being run open
probably some carbon on the seats.
now compression is 170 front 180 rear now and starts normally
I also installed the ape tensioners while in there
still lots of bits to repair this thing was totally abused.
anybody know about dampers in the fairing stay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3AIT&viewitem=
02-13-2009, 10:52 AM
#17
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 312
Well I know I said "it's not that hard" but for me now it is not. I do have to tell you that in 1977 I was doing shim adjustment on a Kawasaki 900 (shim over bucket) and could not get one shim out (did not know many tricks I have since learned). Anyway I decided to take the cam off (this was not normal procedure) and ened up breaking a 'cam cap bolt' off below the cylinder deck (don't ask). I then had to remove the cylinder head and take it to a machine shop to get the bolt extracted. So I guess you just went through something similar. JIM
02-24-2010, 11:20 PM
#18
Junior Member
Squid
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Orlando,Fl
Posts: 1
I've been searching thorugh here and cant find the answer to this one how do you get to the cyls. to even do this do i have to drop the engine or is there a trick that I can't figure out?
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