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MOSFET Regulator/Rectifiers - The Why & The How

Old 04-05-2011, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jay956 View Post
i got a 08 R1 r/r, i was under the assumption that was a mosfet unit... though im not positive
Well... There are two ways to know... One being 100% certain... One is to read my list... That's 99% certain... The other is to look at the markings, and compare to what I wrote above... That should give you 100% certainity...
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:29 AM
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Tweety thanks for this info. I printed it out, read it & its going into my hawk files for reference. I wish I read it before my 2 replacements (2 hawks) but at least my 2nd one was a mofset. Supposedly from an R1 but bigger. (but does have the mofset letters/numbers)
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by smokinjoe73 View Post
Tweety thanks for this info. I printed it out, read it & its going into my hawk files for reference. I wish I read it before my 2 replacements (2 hawks) but at least my 2nd one was a mofset. Supposedly from an R1 but bigger. (but does have the mofset letters/numbers)
Then it's a 2004-2006 unit... They are the same electrically, but have big fins...
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Well... The clue here is "semi-conductor"... It does actually mean in it's most base meaning something that conducts partially... And a diode is in it's most base form is something that only conducts in one direction... Ie a semiconductor...

The more complex transistor is merely a net of diodes, resistors and other basic components if you look at it broken down into it's most basic and fundamental parts... But in miniture, and done in a different way...

Hence they all qualify as diode's and they all in a sense come from the same scientific discovery, long, long ago... The rest is just a way of differentiating between different uses, but basically all electric components, no matter how complex, can in a purely functional way be replaced by the most basic and fundamental parts that make up an electric curcuit... It's highly impractical... But possible...
I might be misunderstanding you, but I still think that the two are much more different than that...to the point that a transistor is in no way a "diode".
Here is my reasoning:
Since we are looking at definitions, (again, just for purity's sake), the definition of an electrical semiconductor is not as broad as "something that conduct partially" but a component/ matter which possesses the properties of conductance somewhere between that of a conductor and that of an insulator. This is important because it is not the direction of current travel that defines a semiconductor, but rather the level of conductance.
A diode by description is a "semiconductor". It utilizes semiconductor components in order to fulfill its intended purpose of acting as an electrical one-way check valve. It is a full fledged conductor in its biased direction. Semiconductor appears only to apply to a portion of the diode's makeup, but does not apply to the diode as a whole. Semiconductor is better used as an adjective of diode (type) as in "a semiconductor diode" The thyrisotor diode is slightly more like a transistor in that it is switchable--but there ends the similarity. It still limits current to one direction only.
A simple transistor is likewise a "semiconductor", but either an amplifier or a switch, depending upon use. It can allow bi-directional current flow once switched on, and can further have an amplifier property on input voltage vs. output voltage. The transistor employs and relies on semiconductor components, but its intended and practical use does not reflect that of the diode in any way.
The junction FET transistor does actually contain an internal diode type operation. This diode type relationship lies between the source and drain poles of the transistor. This relationship can be likened more to a triode type vacuum tube.
However, the R/R on the SuperHawk does not utilize the J-FET transistor, but instead the insulated gate FET, also known as MOSFET. This transistor type does not utilize the diode feature of the J-FET, and acts in the kind of a servo switch.
While the two can be used to create the same result (as in the R/R application), they are accomplishing that end by different means, hence the reason why the MOSFET R/R is more desireable than the thyristor diode type.
In my mind, calling a transistor a diode because of the semiconductor properties of each is the same as--to borrow from the world of hydraulics-- to call a one way check valve the same as a pilot operated implement control valve because they are both valves. This is not to be facetious, but merely to help visualize the difference. Both are very application specific, and can only rarely be used to accomplish a similar task. Even then they do not perform the same.

Tweety, please understand that it is not my intent to be argumentative or contrary. I expect that your equating these two components comes from practiced daily interaction with each, allowing for professional deviation from the exact definitions where appropriate. I am an amateur of at this sort of thing, and study it because it interests me only. I use it rarely in my work, but I also teach these kinds of principles often. My concern in this is such that at the elementary levels of learning, I find it better to clearly delineate definition until such a time as one is comfortable enough with the concepts to understand the professional generalizations.

Thanks for all of the information you are providing! I appreciate this discourse immensely and am learning a lot through your patient guidance!
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Well... There are two ways to know... One being 100% certain... One is to read my list... That's 99% certain... The other is to look at the markings, and compare to what I wrote above... That should give you 100% certainity...
well its already on there and working so thats all i care about lol
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:36 PM
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Excellent Info

Thanks Tweety, this is excellent information.

I often wonder if every bike forum has similar gurus, or if we're just lucky to own Superhawks!

Mike
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:33 PM
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thanks for the info, good read!

do you know what the wattage ratings are for the various RR that you listed, or where/how one can find out?

Thanks

Last edited by 20_rc51_00; 04-06-2011 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 20_rc51_00 View Post
thanks for the info, good read!

do you know what the wattage ratings are for the various RR that you listed, or where/how one can find out?

Thanks
The ones marked fh012 (yamaha) are 50w and the Honda ones are 35w... The others are unclear... Unfortunately shindengen doesn't publish all specs...
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by t99ford View Post
I might be misunderstanding you, but I still think that the two are much more different than that...to the point that a transistor is in no way a "diode".

Thanks for all of the information you are providing! I appreciate this discourse immensely and am learning a lot through your patient guidance!
Nope... No misunderstanding... They are nothing alike... That was as much a joke as a generalization...

Actually I never said that a transistor was a diode... I said it contains diodes... Like I said, functionally it is possible to replace a transistor with a net of diodes and resistors... Almost all "active" components can be broken down into "passive" components
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
The ones marked fh012 (yamaha) are 50w and the Honda ones are 35w... The others are unclear... Unfortunately shindengen doesn't publish all specs...
Just a note: shindengen lists the FH012 as 35 amps current MAX on the catalog page I have book marked.
ƒJƒ^ƒƒO””„b“d‘••ib•i•bV“dŒH‹Š”Ž‰ Ž

The FH019 IS listed as a 50 amp unit

Last edited by E.Marquez; 04-07-2011 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Just a note: shindengen lists the FH012 as 35 amps current MAX on the catalog page I have book marked.
J^O̔bdibibVdHƊ

The FH019 IS listed as a 50 amp unit
Heh... sorry... It seems my info on that was incorrect then... But very good to get correct info...
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Heh... sorry... It seems my info on that was incorrect then... But very good to get correct info...
Tweety.. No sorry s bud,, You made a nice informative thread

I just happened to have some different info stored away from when I researched and installed my R/R swap.

I sent a customer service email to the shindengen Tech department as if they could provide Tech data sheets on all shindengen FET style R/R.

If I get a response I'll post it here.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:03 PM
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Boooooooooooooooooo, I'll try again..Next email going out in 3, 2, 1 SEND

The response I got back from Shindengen USA
Dear Sir:

We are sorry that we do not have any technical assistance regarding your requested products in this office. Please contact directly to Shindengen Japan to get a technical assistance by using the following link.

Inquirie?SHINDENGEN

Customer Service
Shindengen America, Inc.
[email protected]

From: Erik Marquez [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:04 AM
To: Customer Service
Subject: Tech support

Good day, can you point me to the company web page for technical specs of the shindengen FH010AA regulator/rectifier? Or otherwise provide the specs? I have only been able to find the tech sheets for the FH012 and FH019.
Additionally, I am interested in the specs for all shindengen models of FET regulator/ rectifier?

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Respectfully

Erik Marquez
Marquez Racing

Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
I sent a customer service email to the shindengen Tech department as if they could provide Tech data sheets on all shindengen FET style R/R.

If I get a response I'll post it here.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Nope... No misunderstanding... They are nothing alike... That was as much a joke as a generalization...

Actually I never said that a transistor was a diode... I said it contains diodes... Like I said, functionally it is possible to replace a transistor with a net of diodes and resistors... Almost all "active" components can be broken down into "passive" components

This is true enough. Thanks for the clarification!
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:18 AM
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Well crap.... that one went nowhere as well.
Looks like it's a educated guessing game now on specs for these R/R.

Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Boooooooooooooooooo, I'll try again..Next email going out in 3, 2, 1 SEND

The response I got back from Shindengen USA

And the Response was.....
Dear Sir

We sale our products for only motorcycle manufactures.
Therefore we cannot provide our spec to other.

HP information is only reference data.
Thanks for your understanding.

Best Regards
Shindengen sales
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Heh... sorry... It seems my info on that was incorrect then... But very good to get correct info...
Markus,

It seems the newer Kawi units have 2 plugs on a wire loom each:
Kawasaki 2008 ZX-6R ZX6R OEM Regulator Rectifier 07-08 | eBay

I found a used that appears in good condition and I think I'll jump on it...

and the Yami units (at least for an 07 YZF 600, which presumably is a Mosfet, or its like the older Hybrid R1 units; can't tell how tall the fins are; or its an SH) have one female plug like our VTRs:
NEW 2007 Yamaha YZF 600 Voltage Regulator Rectifier 07 | eBay
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
Markus,

It seems the newer Kawi units have 2 plugs on a wire loom each:
Kawasaki 2008 ZX-6R ZX6R OEM Regulator Rectifier 07-08 | eBay

I found a used that appears in good condition and I think I'll jump on it...
Yes... These are like the Honda one's... Cut the wiring, and make a nice soldering job, or get plugs (both ends) from eastern beaver, and cut the old connectors off...

Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
and the Yami units (at least for an 07 YZF 600, which presumably is a Mosfet, or its like the older Hybrid R1 units; can't tell how tall the fins are; or its an SH) have one female plug like our VTRs:
NEW 2007 Yamaha YZF 600 Voltage Regulator Rectifier 07 | eBay
These aren't in the list... For the simple reason that they aren't MOSFET's... This is the same as the older R1 unit... But aftermarket...

Last edited by Tweety; 04-11-2011 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Yes... These are like the Honda one's... Cut the wiring, and make a nice soldering job, or get plugs (both ends) from eastern beaver, and cut the old connectors off...



These aren't in the list... For the simple reason that they aren't MOSFET's... This is the same as the older R1 unit... But aftermarket...
Bottom line, do you think your listed Yami units r the way to go, having one less spliced connection?

Jim @ EB has complete A/B kits for almost any VR-R...

R/R Connectors
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
Bottom line, do you think your listed Yami units r the way to go, having one less spliced connection?

Jim @ EB has complete A/B kits for almost any VR-R...

R/R Connectors
The note about him not having connectors for the odd CBR 1000RR one's are from his own site... But for the 600 and the Kawi ZX6, use the one's marked FH008/016 on his site, should work excellent...

I see no problem with having a waterproof connector on the wiring, instead of on the R/R body... As long as you do the work right, solder the connections and such, and it's as good as the others...

If you cut the stock plug off, add a connector and then do the same on the stock wiring on your VTR, there are no splices needed, since the length of wiring on the R/R makes up the length difference...

If you use e-beavers kit, you have no splices at all, and much better wiring... Lot's of good choices...
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
The note about him not having connectors for the odd CBR 1000RR one's are from his own site... But for the 600 and the Kawi ZX6, use the one's marked FH008/016 on his site, should work excellent...

I see no problem with having a waterproof connector on the wiring, instead of on the R/R body... As long as you do the work right, solder the connections and such, and it's as good as the others...

If you cut the stock plug off, add a connector and then do the same on the stock wiring on your VTR, there are no splices needed, since the length of wiring on the R/R makes up the length difference...

If you use e-beavers kit, you have no splices at all, and much better wiring... Lot's of good choices...
I planned on cutting of the VTR plug & wiring directly to the battery for the + & - using Jim's battery kits with the inline fuse. How/what do I do with the + & - wires from the OE plug when I go with new direct to the battery? Take the OE loom apart and trace the 2 wires back to the battery and eliminating them at the fuse panel, or do they tie in something else?? Soldering the new plug to the alternator leads is touchy on the bike but easily doable. I was thinking of locating the VR-R somewhere else for better cool air exposure but then it would be exposed more to weather. Problem with Jim's kits is they're too long for the close adjacency of our VR-R & battery but I'll email him again to ask if he can make them to custom lengths. I just can't remember which plug is male and which female LOL

Last edited by skokievtr; 04-11-2011 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
I planned on cutting of the VTR plug & wiring directly to the battery for the + & - using Jim's battery kits with the inline fuse. How/what do I do with the + & - wires from the OE plug when I go with new direct to the battery? Take the OE loom apart and trace the 2 wires back to the battery and eliminating them at the fuse panel, or do they tie in something else?? Soldering the new plug to the alternator leads is touchy on the bike but easily doable. I was thinking of locating the VR-R somewhere else for better air exposure. I just can't remember which plug is male and which female LOL
To be completely honest, there will never be any need for better air exposure with a MOSFET based R/R... Your fan and the holes in the cowling will be complete overkill... A MOSFET based R/R get's barely warm to the touch, while the finned stock unit gets hot enough to burn your fingers on...

The positive wire goes to the main fuse, a bit roundabout, but that's where it end's up... I'd probably just identify it, and cut it at that end, just leaving it in the loom, and saving the hassle of re-doing it completely... The green one goes into the nest of groundwires, so you can probably cut that one and just isolate it and ignore it, but removing the short bit into the loom isn't that hard...

Well, the male plug is the one that have hard parts sticking out all the time... The female plug is the one that you need to sweet talk to get into...
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
To be completely honest, there will never be any need for better air exposure with a MOSFET based R/R... Your fan and the holes in the cowling will be complete overkill... A MOSFET based R/R get's barely warm to the touch, while the finned stock unit gets hot enough to burn your fingers on...

The positive wire goes to the main fuse, a bit roundabout, but that's where it end's up... I'd probably just identify it, and cut it at that end, just leaving it in the loom, and saving the hassle of re-doing it completely... The green one goes into the nest of groundwires, so you can probably cut that one and just isolate it and ignore it, but removing the short bit into the loom isn't that hard...

Well, the male plug is the one that have hard parts sticking out all the time... The female plug is the one that you need to sweet talk to get into...
You replied as I was amending (editing) my above reply. Yes, I figured it would be easiest to just leave the OE plug end + wire disconnected (I think that's what your saying anyway), the - wire can be use to ground the new Mofset VR-R "case" in addition to the questionable "chassis" ground. With how much amperage I draw over OE I don't know if my mods were really necessary but good insurance all these years; the Mofset won't need the heat sink & CPU fan. Will everything still work right with the old + wire left connected to the main fuse with the new direct battery ground (with its own inline fuse)?
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
You replied as I was amending (editing) my above reply. Yes, I figured it would be easiest to just leave the OE plug end + wire disconnected (I think that's what your saying anyway), the - wire can be use to ground the new Mofset VR-R "case" in addition to the questionable "chassis" ground. With how much amperage I draw over OE I don't know if my mods were really necessary but good insurance all these years; the Mofset won't need the heat sink & CPU fan. Will everything still work right with the old + wire left connected to the main fuse with the new direct battery ground (with its own inline fuse)?
Actually, i suggest cutting the OE + wire at both ends... The OE - could easily go to the chassie, yes... And that's definetely a good idea too...

Yes... everything will still work... there really is no difference in terms of electrics to put the R/R directly on the battery poles, than what the OEM wiring is... Just stupidly thin wiring inside the looms that get's replace by decent sized one's outside the loom... They still end up in the same place...
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Actually, i suggest cutting the OE + wire at both ends... The OE - could easily go to the chassie, yes... And that's definetely a good idea too...

Yes... everything will still work... there really is no difference in terms of electrics to put the R/R directly on the battery poles, than what the OEM wiring is... Just stupidly thin wiring inside the looms that get's replace by decent sized one's outside the loom... They still end up in the same place...
I looked at the wiring diagram (see below) and don't see how it matters if the + wire from the OE loom connector is disconnected from the main fuse (given its not connected to anything and its other end though it could be used to power a fused auxiliary power panel). If the + output of the VR-R is directly to the battery, I presume the main fuse will be "reverse" powered from the battery and then "back-feed" the ignition switch. Does that make sense?
Attached Thumbnails MOSFET Regulator/Rectifiers - The Why & The How-vtr1000f-wiring-diagram.jpg  
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:13 AM
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What I really need is a how to guide for the connectors. Eastern beaver presumably sells them but I cant tell head from tails on his site.
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by geekonamotorcycle View Post
What I really need is a how to guide for the connectors. Eastern beaver presumably sells them but I cant tell head from tails on his site.
You have to select the R/R your going to use FIRST.. as different models use different plugs.

Once you select the R/R anyone of a dozen regular posters here can point you in the right direction at eastern beaver. Or you can send an email to Easter Beaver tell him what bike, what R/R your using and what you are capable of doing as far as the install,, and he can assist you as well.
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Old 04-17-2011, 11:39 PM
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ok so the alt. in my car is going, it always works at idle and for 3-4 minutes after a cold start, intermittently while driving and while driving drops down to ~11.8V. cruising high rpm I can get about 12V out of it, but again back down to idle at a stop light I'll see 14V. help me figure it out I want to fix it not replace it!
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:14 AM
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Well... Without knowing anything about the car, the alternator or anything else, it's really a guessing game...

But, based on what you describe, it's the diode based regulator inside the alternator that's FUBAR and not the alternator as a whole... It works in much the same way as the R/R on a bike, convering A/C to D/C and maintaining voltage... Should be a part that's easily replaceable...
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Well... Without knowing anything about the car, the alternator or anything else, it's really a guessing game...

But, based on what you describe, it's the diode based regulator inside the alternator that's FUBAR and not the alternator as a whole... It works in much the same way as the R/R on a bike, convering A/C to D/C and maintaining voltage... Should be a part that's easily replaceable...
Hmm thanks. I'll just have to look into it some more. I'll report back, I'm just not looking to tear apart the IC in there, but more of a hierarchal fix obviously and with hundreds of amps this thing drives out these are no wimpy diodes in there that's for sure. Thanks again
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:14 AM
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So I am putting out about 16volts at 6k RPM and just blew my 3rd high beam in a week. I guess its time to make this swap.
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