Cold cranking problem
 

I need help with a very frustrating problem. I have a 98 VTR with 25000 miles.
The bike has always been garaged. It is clean and has no corrosion I can see.
The bike will not crank when cold! I have replaced the starter brush assemblies, and the battery is new. It will not crank more than a feeble half a revolution. By using a charger, I can finally force the bike to crank. The voltage drop is so great it shuts down the ignition! When I can finally get the bike to crank and start, and then let it warm, the bike will start normally, eagerly, the rest of the day. I am afraid if I shut the bike off for too long and it cools off, I'll get stuck. Battery is premium Yousa.
After re-building the starter motor, I am reluctant to buy more parts until I have defined the problem. I have shorted past the relay, still no crank when cold! Of course I have checked grounding, etc.
Bike has good battery, wiring and relay. Will not crank, as if starter motor is bad, when cold. When warm, cranks eagerly!
I would appreciate any help on this matter. I would like to be able to rely on this bike again!

If I have to buy all new starting cables and relay, I will. But I have to know what is wrong. Do the cables "go bad"? What about the starting relay?
I like this bike better than my 900ss (93) and VFR750. But I can't use it if I can't start it.
Got Multi-meter and know how to use it. Can someone help me?

Check the starter relay.

The Starter relay? Thanks very much, I will. Now, when I test it with a voltmeter, it seems to be working, but I do understand there can be problems which will not show up unless it is under cranking load. By "checking it" do you mean "substitute a known good unit and see if it helps"? Or is there some other way or indication the relay is not working correctly.
Keep in mind, I have shorted past the relay, from terminal to terminal, and the damn thing still won't crank when cold. Where am I losing all that voltage? Have you ever heard of anything going wrong with the cables themselves? Very frustrating problem in a bike otherwise quite reliable.

Honda sport bikes do, I'm pretty sure, have weak electricals: My VFR keeps blowing the R/R.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Gosh, you are in Seattle? I'm over in Bremerton!

I'll be damned! we are both a little ancient for sport bikes!

check the voltage at the output side to see if you have a voltage drop relative to battery voltage. Page 18-10 in the manual shows where to measure. Yes, I've been doing this for a long time. Home is in an area south of Seattle known as Tophat.

It's funny, but I may have seen you on I-5. There are very few yellow Hawks around here.
You are saying that even if the relay measures zero resistance (when activated by the switch), under operation there will be a large voltage drop at the contacts? If the contacts have become burned or pitted over time? The relay should cut the headlights, too, when the starter operates?

I will measure that tomorrow. Oh, I'll go out to the garage now.

Tell me more about what you saw when you replaced the brushes in the starter.

Thank you for replying, Tophatflash. When I replaced the brushes, brush-plates and springs (all comes with) I saw a brush-plate and springs which were not very worn, and didn't need replacing, really. But since I had the new ones, in they went, which produced a slight improvement. But not much. That was not the problem, and I saved the old ones, just in case.
BTW, the manual says to take all the spacers (2 thin, one thicker) off the end of the starter armature, and put them back on after the armature is put through the case. And they're right, too. If you don't,(cause you're lazy) the permanent magnets in the case cause them to "jump" off the shaft and become lodged between the rotor and the case when you put it back together and that's not good.
I was forced to conclude the starter motor itself was not the problem, but it got new brushes springs and plates anyway, and it all checks out good, continuity where it should be and inf. resistance where it should be.
I have heard that the starter relay can have a resistant contact problem which only shows up under load. I'm more than willing to buy another relay and stick it in.
I want that damned bike to work! I like it better than my Duc or VFR for all round use.
Sometimes I wish I had never sold my three BMW airheads (R60, R90 and R100S). Those were motorcycles! I could have used them till I die, and my wife could still have given them to the next guy she marries. Me, I think she's a hell of a catch without three BMWs for a dowry, but an added inducements never hurts. Not the Hawk tho! That's getting buried with me. I'll be damned if another guy's hand ever touches that!

BTW, I thought home was a town on the Key Penninsula. Tophat I can't find on the map at all.

I see that you said that you replaced the brushes, but what was the condition of the armature? If the armature is worn, then the brushes won't be making good contact. You can sand down the armature to make the surface even, but don't take off too much material.

If the brushes and springs weren't bad, such as a collapsed spring or a cracked brush and not sticking in the holders, it is likely that the armature is good. My '68 CB 350 had a bad relay. Back then you could disassemble the relay and flip the copper contact over. The slow cranking can be caused by a high resistance at some point in the starter circuit, see page 18-0, in the manual. the portion of the circuit that energizes the relay seems to be functioning, therefore I would check the components and connectors of that portion of the starter circuit. Those include battery & cables, the relay and the starter. I would use a load test on the battery and watch for a voltage drop that indicates a battery with a bad cell. I would check resistance of all connectors in this circuit and probably to isolate the symptom I would see if the starter cranks normally when voltage is directly applied to the starter. I would use the factory test for the relay, page 18-10. FYI Top Hat shows up in the Thomas guide near the intersection of First ave south and Meyers Way. It is named after the building that used to house a Flying "A" gas station and has a big top hat on the building.

Have you tested the battery to ensure it's good? I have the same problem, but when I connect a jump-start pack it fires up on the first revolution. My battery was new six months ago, but then I let it sit without riding or charging. After many charging cycles it's back to the point that it will start the bike eventually, but not easily.

Thanks for the replies. It looks like, at this point, it will indeed turn out to be a sub-standard or incorrectly prepped battery, which became useless pretty quickly. So I'm having the local Honda dealer, who has given my good service before, check the bike for charging and drain, and most likely they will prep and put in a battery. This will cost me more, but I'm hoping they install a first rate, properly prepped battery, and I'll keep it on a Batt. Tender. And garaunteed (pro-rated, of course).
They are working on the bike today, and they will be calling me later. At this point, I'll let them handle it. I'm pretty sure it will turn out to be a marginal battery, but I just had a hard time believing the battery could fail so fast, since the original battery lasted so long.

Just got off the phone with the shop. Got a very marginal battery, to be replaced with the uprated Yuasa, for the astounding sum of 200 dollars! Standard is $100
Which they gotta order, prep and get in, which'll take a week.
When your bike sits upfront on the Settle-Bummertown Ferry, it gets chilled:rolleyes: I've had carbs freeze up on my Duc. And if you can't start, about a hundred auto drivers behind you become murderously irritated. If you can't start, you set at the side, helmet in hand, while all the cars drive past and laugh and point. The conspicuity is awful. Little children call you names.
Cold crank is very important for a motorcycle ferry commuter.

Ho-Kay! Here's the deal. Instead of the dealer-prep Yuasa YTX12-BS (at about $100) with 180 CCA, I am getting the factory activated YTZ-12S (at about $170, ouch) with 210 CCA . This is the uprated battery from the 2001-2005 VTR. It is actually slighter <i>shorter</i> than the older style (130mm vs. 110mm) so should slip right in. 6months garauntee. Take a couple days to get here.

It's snowing today, so what the hell. Thanks for all the help.

How old was your old battery?

Also it is very possible for a bad R/R to toast a good battery, so.. Consider replacing that if you still have a OEM non finned one.

This one here is a direct replacement http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-H...Q5fAccessories

Or you can do the R1/R6 swap http://vtr1000f.wickidnet.com/
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...Q5fAccessories

Thanks, lazn! I will defintely try one of those if I need a RR. The electrical system was checked by the shop, and they say it's just a marginal battery. It might even come on the truck today! Or, more likely, it won't, and Tuesday is my next shot.

Just some advice from a old fart, but you might want to check your ground wire. Most DC problems start with a bad ground, possibly where it bolts to engine. :eek:

Okay, this is turning into a major screw-up! Man, I am so screwed! Okay, I payed the shop an hour of labor to check my electrical system. They reccomended the battery from the 2001-5 Hawk for my 1998. So I paid for the battery and the shop charge: $289.00 !!
I rode away and drove about 60 miles and the battery blew up!!! It was literally steaming and whistling like a teakettle, smelled like rotten eggs.
I do not think the late 01-05 battery is a replacement for the earlier battery! I believe it has a lower charge rate, and should only be used in the right years, which have a charging system balanced for it.
That was Sat. afternoon, I got the bike back to the shop at about 5pm, and they don't open til Tuesday. Let's see how much responsibility they take. I think they fucked up bigtime. That battery was a few minutes from popping open or melting! And did this ruin my RR?

I will be at their door bright and early on Tues. I don't hold out much hope. More than likely, I will have to go buy a battery, put it in, and then dispute the dealer's charges through the credit-card company. If they don't recognise what they did wrong (never checked charging system, and charged 1 hour labor, and installed wrong battery) there's no point in having them work on the bike any further.

Oh shit! Just got off the phone with Yuasa Battery in Lancaster Penn. They told me the newer Hawk battery (YTZ12-S) SHOULD NOT, should not, be substituted for the YTX12-BS. The newer battery is much more "charge sensitive" and will be overpowered by the early (98-00) charging system.
They said it is not NOT a substitution, and NOT (not!) a recommended upgrade, which would have been noted on the web-site catalogue.
So I guess I'll get to see how much responsibility the shop, Brother's Powersports, in Bremerton Wa., wants to take for their faulty recommendation I buy the much more expensive and incorrect battery. We will see tomorrow.

The stupid bastards! The stupid bastards, had some gobsmakingly WRONG idea they picked up somewhere rattling around their braions, and I'm the victim of it. No doubt they will insist I made them put in the wrong battery.

hopefully for you they will fix it. I still would replace the RR, mine took a nearly brand new battery out with it. Thats not always the case but it does have the capability to do so. Also if you wait until the RR does go out its more down time along with the possibility to be stranded.

Give em hell at the shop, they put in the wrong battery it doesn't matter if you said it was ok, they should know their stuff because they are paid to know.

That's a Bad R/R killing your battery.. And if the shop "checked" your electrical system, they didn't check the R/R..

And the 98-00 charging system is identical to the 01-05 system only the R/R is finned (they are direct replacements, the newer R/R is the one you want to put in your older bike as I did since it is finned and doesn't die as easily)

There is absolutely no difference in the two generations of charging systems as far as the output is concerned... So the battery is a direct replacement in all possible ways...

On that the shop is correct, and dead on... Yuasa is not... So don't push that...

However I agree completely with lazn... That is a faulty R/R... It's has most likely been overcharging your battery for a while... That's what killed the last one... That time it was a slow death...

With a fresh and fully charged battery to start with it ended up a smoking mess instead... Possibly Yuasa have a small point about that battery being more sensitive to charging... Dunno... If so it clearly doesn't like being overcharged... But that has nothing to do with differences between years...

Altough I'd give the shop hell for obviously not checking your electric system throughoutly...

I do believe the output of the charging system in the later bikes is adjusted to work with the newer battery. A change om regulator output is not actually visible, you know. Are they the same part number on the two series? I doubt it. Yuasa said the two were NOT interchangable, and the later battery was NOT recommended as an upgrade. Got it in writing, or will have it soon, with phone numbers of the technical people at Yuasa.
And boiling the battery is exactly what they said it would do. As far as my system overcharging- I checked it, many times, there has been no change in the voltage to the battery. Of course, who knows what happened to the RR during this little jaunt.
Oh, and if my system was overcharging, why wasn't that noted during the hour of labor I paid for. Was that just to take the seat off and screw in the new battery? I never had my battery get hot and boil like this.

They fucked up. Yuasa said that if the battery was recommended as an upgrade, it would have been in the catologue. All they had to do was put in a frickin battery, check my charging system, and let me go, all at a premium price.

But didn't we have the guy who developed the battery for Yuasa write in to this website a while back?

So, then the the fact that I have run a battery meant for the newer gen on an older bike without boiling it for 3 years or so is an impossible fluke that cant be replicated I guess...

And the output on both gens of charging system is identical irregardless of Yuasas ramblings... I have verified it myself on more than one bike...

The reason for the change is to reduce size and weight... the newer battery is a good bit lighter with the same performance as the old... Altough I fully agree that Yuasa has never recommended the newer battery as an upgrade... Although not because it wouldn't be an upgrade...

Yeah i know a change of the R/R isn't visible on the outside... But it's very obvious when you measure it with an good multimeter and know what you are looking at...

Yeah, the part-no is changed... not because changes in output, but because the older ones have a tendency to fail, so the newer ones have a metal shell with fins and the internal diodes are grounded to that shell to provide a heatsink... The older was just baked into a plastic block... not good for heat transfer...

If your R/R is damaged now it was before the battery started smoking... I can guarantee you that...

When my R/R died, it boiled my battery, and let out smoke...

As for the R/R, part number 31600-MV4-000 has been used from 1989 to 2005.

(it was 31600-MV4-000 when it had no fins, then became 31600-MV4-010 when it gained fins then part number 31600-KPJ-670 later on.. but it is the same part internally and used across many motorcycles as a direct swap for all models, you can reverse look it up on ronayers.com if you want)

And you do want a finned one as they last longer. (or do a Yamaha R/R swap, those don't die)

Yeah, I think I'll go with the Yuasa factory on this, they make em. And I know how to measure the charging current. Thanks for the advice.

And the new battery is heavier, not lighter.

Its not just checking your charging volts though its more complicated than that to make sure the regulator rectifier is not going to toast another $180 worth of battery. It takes ten minutes to fully test it and then you know it won't blow another battery. Also for some strange reason rr's don't behave like mechanical parts do where if its broke its broke sometimes at idle it will read fine but under driving loads is spiking like crazy. Some start letting ac current slip pass the rectifier and will read as good voltage at the battery but slowly drain the battery because of the negative positive pulse of ac canceling itself out. Batteries are batteries if its twelve volt it will be happy at 14volts any more and it can blow. Yuasa sounds like to me is saying the battery you put in is more sensative and will blow faster then the original, but it still doesn't answer why if it was getting the right amount of voltage did it explode. We just don't want to see you have to buy another battery after its all said and done.

Sure... They do make the batteries... Not the charging circuit though...

If you don't want to believe in me... Have them explain the difference in the two charging circuits and if they can give an exact answer as to the difference... Well then I'll believe it...

Until then as far as I'm concerned an list of identical parts will end up with the same result... Regardless of model year and parts number...

The stator is the same... The R/R is the same... the cabling is the same... The purpose is the same...

Convert AC to DC, smooth out the power throughout the rev band to a manageable voltage range for the battery and burn off excess as heat...

There is no difference...

Also for some strange reason rr's don't behave like mechanical parts do where if its broke its broke sometimes at idle it will read fine but under driving loads is spiking like crazy.

Thanks for all the help. Well, I talked to the shop this morning, and they were very fair. Turns out they did not make a test of charging current underload, at temp (they stick it on the dyno) and then stuck in this up-rated battery. Which boiled to a frazzle in no time.
They are returning the 01-05 battery and crediting me full amount, they have a 98-00 battery on the shelf, and are ordering in a voltage regulator. The Honda voltage regulator is very expensive about $150 and I've seen 'em for cheaper, but it is plain that Brother's Powersports is willing to stand behind their repairs, so I'll go with them. If there's any further problem I'm sure they will stand behind it.

Although in fact you guys are right about the RR spiking, and the electrical system being the same (and thanks for the advice) at this time we're gonna stick with all stock.
And I appreciate the fact that Brother's Powersports of Bremerton Washington, stood behind their repair, and did not attempt to stick me with the cost, nor did they insist the boiled battery could be further used.
Of course, as soon as my bike looked to be incapacitated, hor's de frickin' combat
the weather turned beautiful, some of the best riding weather of the year. But I'm used to that.

So it turned out the advice on the voltage regulator was good, and I thank you all for it, but there's a deeper more terrifying aspect to this story. I love motorcycles, have all my life, been riding for 35 years now, but I have a curse on me: As soon as I take my bikes there, a service department goes to hell. No kidding, I am like Typhoid Mary for motorcycle service departments. All I have to do is walk in and ask for a oil filter, and people start drinking again, or stop taking necessary medications, or have marital problems, or stop contacting their probation officer and a once smooth-working organisation turns into a mess. It's a curse, and I know it, so I don't even get mad when this happens. Okay, I was a little mad, haven't slept for a week, just sit up all night with the VTR manual and a bottle of vodka, groaning occasionally, but shit, who isn't doing that these days?

Oh yeah- Brothers says that from now on they are going to put all new batteries on the dyno and check charge at speed and load, to avoid another incident like this.

service dept do get a lot of bad press, good for them to stand up and take care of the situation. it would have been nice if they would have been more thorough the first time through ... dead batteries in the spring are all to common. probably 1:1000 have a charging problem.

tim

Glad you got it cleared up!

And if it weren't for the known issue with our R/Rs I'd not have been so sure of the issue. (I had the exact same thing happen to me..)

Yes, thanks again for keeping that R/R issue at the forefront. And I'm satisfied: I am not being stuck with any charges other than the battery and RR and one hour labor. Of course, I nearly had an expensive battery blow up on my legs and strand me far from home, and it will end up taking three weeks to get this right, but what the hell!
Like I said, as soon as I come near them, service departments fall to pieces. It's a curse.

Derbig Mooser...:) Glad it worked out... Hope I didn't come on too strong... I'm kind of stubborn at times...;)

Good on them for standing by their work and clearing out the mess...

BTW... You and me might have the same curse... Hence the reason I try to do as much as possible myself... Last time my VTR was at the shop, a police car managed to back into it on the yard and I ended up getting a new fairing and brake pedal...

The police garage and this shop shares the yard... But still what are the odds? Altough it keeps down on the break-in attempts for the shop owner...

BTW... You and me might have the same curse...

At one time I had three BMW airheads, and I couldn't get them serviced right. Is there a simpler bike? I like to do my own stuff, make my own chains, blend my own oil out of kitchen grease and hand lotion, make my own tires out of discarded hair-bands, stuff like that, but it's nice to have reliable service nearby. I also make my own fuel out of rubbing alchohol and Coca-Cola when fuel prices get too high.
The battery is there at the shop, the Honda RR is on it's way. And if the RR doesn't work (I got a dead one for my VFR couple years ago, no return) it'll be their problem.

It is a little discouraging. Simplicity and easy servicing was one of the reasons I chose the VTR.
I should go get my 900SS ('93) all fixed up. That's what got me started on this whole v-twin sport-bike thing. BTW, the VTR is twice as much bike than any of the air-cooled Ducs.

All praise to my wife, incidentally. I sent her down to the bike shop this morning to negotiate the deal. I would have started swinging right away, I was so pissed. But she straightened the thing all out, while I sat at home rocking back and forth and tearing my hair out, what little is left of it. It's like "Cripple Creek"- "I don't have to speak, she defends me. A drunkard's dream, if I ever did see one!"

I guess that's way before your time. Oh well.