Two engines together?
03-15-2014, 11:40 PM
#1
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brookfield, WI
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Two engines together?
I have been reading A LOT of The Knee Slider lately and there have been some builders that have given me ideas. One of those ideas is to put two Superhawk engines together, like a V-4 with 1,992cc. This is more of an exercise in thinking than doing. This might not be feasible at all. It would be neat to accomplish this though. It would require:
-New crankshaft
-Cooling system?
-Ignition (how would you time it?)
-Lubrication system(s). How will both engines be lubricated? You can't keep both engines seperate with a single crankshaft.
-?
Why am I asking? I came upon yet another running Superhawk engine for super cheap and it got the gears 'a goin'.
-New crankshaft
-Cooling system?
-Ignition (how would you time it?)
-Lubrication system(s). How will both engines be lubricated? You can't keep both engines seperate with a single crankshaft.
-?
Why am I asking? I came upon yet another running Superhawk engine for super cheap and it got the gears 'a goin'.
03-16-2014, 07:57 AM
#2
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And then building a frame/swing arm...etc...
I dont even know how you would even get started on a project like that..
I feel like the cooling and lubrication would be the easy part, timing would probably be straight forward as each heads cams are timed relative to their respective piston position...
Mating the two would be the hard part...
I dont even know how you would even get started on a project like that..
I feel like the cooling and lubrication would be the easy part, timing would probably be straight forward as each heads cams are timed relative to their respective piston position...
Mating the two would be the hard part...
03-16-2014, 08:02 AM
#3
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there was somebody in Australia a bunch of years ago that mated 2 CR500R engines together in a V formation.. so I know it CAN be done, I have no idea how to go about doing it though.
And really when mating two engines together like that you're using the cylinders, pistons, connecting rods, and heads of the doner engines, but much of the rest of the engine has to be custom made, which is a lot harder with the hawk since the cylinders are part of the lower case and dont just slide off
And really when mating two engines together like that you're using the cylinders, pistons, connecting rods, and heads of the doner engines, but much of the rest of the engine has to be custom made, which is a lot harder with the hawk since the cylinders are part of the lower case and dont just slide off
03-16-2014, 12:31 PM
#4
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Last night, I couldn't fall asleep. These little things are what keeps me up, because I can't shut my brain off, no matter how exhausted I am.
Thinking about it, if you had the two engines along side each other, you don't need two clutch assemblies. So, remove the clutch assembly from the one engine and slide that next to the flywheel side of the other engine and this is how they will be attached. Keep the engines completely seperate, but with just a shaft connecting the two. The shaft (sealed, like an automotive rear main seal) would come out of the side engine cover and into the other engine cover the same way.
By keeping both engines seperate:
-The lubrication systems on both engines remain the same.
-The cooling system can be kept the same. Overheating shouldn't be an issue with some clever hose routing between the two engines and having the right sized radiator(s).
-Timing shouldn't be an issue, but I honestly haven't looked to far into this. As long as both engines are timed correctly with each other, this will keep the shaft from getting twisted in half.
Before, the frame going around the engine was a non issue, but now that both engines are kept seperate from each other, the frame is extremely important. I have a design in my mind that would keep both engines together. It involves many tubes and gussets. However, this is for a later time. I doubt this exercise will ever get to the point that a frame will be made.
What about the idea of a shaft connecting the two engines instead of a custom made crankshaft? Thoughts? I'm not a metallurgist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. How thick of a shaft? What kind of metal? The shaft would have to be bolted to both engines. Keeping the shaft perfectly placed, so the engines don't shake themselves apart might be an issue.
Kinda fun thinking about this stuff. What if, ya know?
Thinking about it, if you had the two engines along side each other, you don't need two clutch assemblies. So, remove the clutch assembly from the one engine and slide that next to the flywheel side of the other engine and this is how they will be attached. Keep the engines completely seperate, but with just a shaft connecting the two. The shaft (sealed, like an automotive rear main seal) would come out of the side engine cover and into the other engine cover the same way.
By keeping both engines seperate:
-The lubrication systems on both engines remain the same.
-The cooling system can be kept the same. Overheating shouldn't be an issue with some clever hose routing between the two engines and having the right sized radiator(s).
-Timing shouldn't be an issue, but I honestly haven't looked to far into this. As long as both engines are timed correctly with each other, this will keep the shaft from getting twisted in half.
Before, the frame going around the engine was a non issue, but now that both engines are kept seperate from each other, the frame is extremely important. I have a design in my mind that would keep both engines together. It involves many tubes and gussets. However, this is for a later time. I doubt this exercise will ever get to the point that a frame will be made.
What about the idea of a shaft connecting the two engines instead of a custom made crankshaft? Thoughts? I'm not a metallurgist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. How thick of a shaft? What kind of metal? The shaft would have to be bolted to both engines. Keeping the shaft perfectly placed, so the engines don't shake themselves apart might be an issue.
Kinda fun thinking about this stuff. What if, ya know?
Last edited by CruxGNZ; 03-16-2014 at 12:33 PM.
03-16-2014, 05:06 PM
#7
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as for joining the engines, it's been done many, many times on very different engines, one needs the proper tooling and know-how. One possible way to tackle it would be to somehow gear the cranks together (didn't MotoCzysz have something similar in mind when he designed his MotoGP project).....
03-16-2014, 09:13 PM
#9
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You'd have to build a crankcase with four integral cylinders.
IMO, it would be better to start with 2 i4 heads, cylinder blocks, pistons and rods and build a 2 liter V-8. You'd have to build a crankcase and crankshaft.
IMO, it would be better to start with 2 i4 heads, cylinder blocks, pistons and rods and build a 2 liter V-8. You'd have to build a crankcase and crankshaft.
03-16-2014, 09:16 PM
#10
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I think it would be just easier and more efficient to mate a 1200 VFR engine on the VTR frame, which is kinda similar to the idea you trying to get in a better engineered compact form then two VTR engines, the end result may actually be also similar for the output, from a stand point of mechanical engineering, the two VTR engines together will NOT actually produce double the power you probably expect, if you will be able to synchronize them, you will get at the rear wheel only about 1.5 times the power if you lucky, I find it difficult to explain why in simple word, maybe one of you engineers can explain this better than me...
Last edited by NHSH; 03-16-2014 at 09:22 PM.
03-17-2014, 07:48 AM
#11
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Now that would be a cool custom project, with a beautifully engineered engine and transmisison.
03-17-2014, 07:57 AM
#12
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03-17-2014, 08:52 PM
#14
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Last night, I couldn't fall asleep. These little things are what keeps me up, because I can't shut my brain off, no matter how exhausted I am.
Thinking about it, if you had the two engines along side each other, you don't need two clutch assemblies. So, remove the clutch assembly from the one engine and slide that next to the flywheel side of the other engine and this is how they will be attached. Keep the engines completely seperate, but with just a shaft connecting the two. The shaft (sealed, like an automotive rear main seal) would come out of the side engine cover and into the other engine cover the same way.
By keeping both engines seperate:
-The lubrication systems on both engines remain the same.
-The cooling system can be kept the same. Overheating shouldn't be an issue with some clever hose routing between the two engines and having the right sized radiator(s).
-Timing shouldn't be an issue, but I honestly haven't looked to far into this. As long as both engines are timed correctly with each other, this will keep the shaft from getting twisted in half.
Before, the frame going around the engine was a non issue, but now that both engines are kept seperate from each other, the frame is extremely important. I have a design in my mind that would keep both engines together. It involves many tubes and gussets. However, this is for a later time. I doubt this exercise will ever get to the point that a frame will be made.
What about the idea of a shaft connecting the two engines instead of a custom made crankshaft? Thoughts? I'm not a metallurgist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. How thick of a shaft? What kind of metal? The shaft would have to be bolted to both engines. Keeping the shaft perfectly placed, so the engines don't shake themselves apart might be an issue.
Kinda fun thinking about this stuff. What if, ya know?
Thinking about it, if you had the two engines along side each other, you don't need two clutch assemblies. So, remove the clutch assembly from the one engine and slide that next to the flywheel side of the other engine and this is how they will be attached. Keep the engines completely seperate, but with just a shaft connecting the two. The shaft (sealed, like an automotive rear main seal) would come out of the side engine cover and into the other engine cover the same way.
By keeping both engines seperate:
-The lubrication systems on both engines remain the same.
-The cooling system can be kept the same. Overheating shouldn't be an issue with some clever hose routing between the two engines and having the right sized radiator(s).
-Timing shouldn't be an issue, but I honestly haven't looked to far into this. As long as both engines are timed correctly with each other, this will keep the shaft from getting twisted in half.
Before, the frame going around the engine was a non issue, but now that both engines are kept seperate from each other, the frame is extremely important. I have a design in my mind that would keep both engines together. It involves many tubes and gussets. However, this is for a later time. I doubt this exercise will ever get to the point that a frame will be made.
What about the idea of a shaft connecting the two engines instead of a custom made crankshaft? Thoughts? I'm not a metallurgist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. How thick of a shaft? What kind of metal? The shaft would have to be bolted to both engines. Keeping the shaft perfectly placed, so the engines don't shake themselves apart might be an issue.
Kinda fun thinking about this stuff. What if, ya know?
Beside the engine I did love the creative ideas and innovations they came up with like front suspension and more...
http://motoczysz.com/motorcycles/c1_prototype
Interestingly enough, I met Michael Czysz and his company lawyer in 2005 in a motorcycle show, really cool guy's, also got an offer for a job with them that I never actually took, instead I took an IT project manager job in the north east, sometimes I still wonder what if...
03-17-2014, 09:19 PM
#15
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 636
Anything IS possible, but the VTR-V4 seems more impractical than most insane builds because of the engine design mentioned with combined cases and cylinders.
I don't think two complete V2 engines side by side with just attaching the cranks would work either. It would be very wide wouldn't it? Maybe straight lines and slow turns but you couldn't really ride it. A shaft bolting the cranks together doesn't seem sturdy enough to me, would need a custom crank or have two welded together and balanced.
But to stir your imagination, check these out. Some older guy with too much time and money building dreams.....
V12 bike with two CBX 6cyl honda engines. He used one OEM crank with thinner rods and/or machining the crank journals wider for two rods.
V12 bike Video here
Then he was working on the next insano bike....an H16 engine using 4 YZF600 cylinders. Two banks of opposing cylinders stacked with a central crank driven by the two shared cranks. H16 Build Link HERE
I don't think two complete V2 engines side by side with just attaching the cranks would work either. It would be very wide wouldn't it? Maybe straight lines and slow turns but you couldn't really ride it. A shaft bolting the cranks together doesn't seem sturdy enough to me, would need a custom crank or have two welded together and balanced.
But to stir your imagination, check these out. Some older guy with too much time and money building dreams.....
V12 bike with two CBX 6cyl honda engines. He used one OEM crank with thinner rods and/or machining the crank journals wider for two rods.
V12 bike Video here
Then he was working on the next insano bike....an H16 engine using 4 YZF600 cylinders. Two banks of opposing cylinders stacked with a central crank driven by the two shared cranks. H16 Build Link HERE
03-17-2014, 10:02 PM
#16
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,033
Its an interesting idea but like was said, it would wind up like a boss hoss v8 freak bike for posers.
And if you transplanted the vfr motor, you couldnt improve on the rest of the bike anyway so it would be a step backward.
You should focus your diabolical mind on something for the good of mankind.
And if you transplanted the vfr motor, you couldnt improve on the rest of the bike anyway so it would be a step backward.
You should focus your diabolical mind on something for the good of mankind.
03-18-2014, 05:26 AM
#17
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You can play with idea's as much as your mind allow you with great creativity and imagination, That is how some of the best ideas are born, but you also have to balance practical use, unless you have unlimited funds and time to spend... ;-)
03-18-2014, 12:58 PM
#18
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brookfield, WI
Posts: 2,312
That's why I put this ^ in my original post. I have a couple Superhawk engines, and thought "what if?". Sorry if some of you thought that I was going through with this project, no matter what.
That MotoCzysz is awesome! That V-12 and also that H-16...holy crap! Thanks for posting those pictures and links you guys.
That MotoCzysz is awesome! That V-12 and also that H-16...holy crap! Thanks for posting those pictures and links you guys.
02-03-2022, 12:42 AM
#19
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Squid
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 3
hideous pokemon, or whatever, bodywork and make it about 150 lbs lighter. I'd probably keep the shaft drive, because the rear suspension geometry is designed around it.
Now that would be a cool custom project, with a beautifully engineered engine and transmisison.
Now that would be a cool custom project, with a beautifully engineered engine and transmisison.
fair enough
04-02-2022, 12:19 AM
#20
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Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 3
I have been reading A LOT of The Knee Slider lately and there have been some builders that have given me ideas. One of those ideas is to put two Superhawk engines together, like a V-4 with 1,992cc. This is more of an exercise in thinking than doing. This might not be feasible at all. It would be neat to accomplish this though. It would require:
-New crankshaft
-Cooling system?
-Ignition (how would you time it?)
-Lubrication system(s). How will both engines be lubricated? You can't keep both engines seperate with a single crankshaft.
-?
Why am I asking? I came upon yet another running Superhawk engine for super cheap and it got the gears 'a goin'.
-New crankshaft
-Cooling system?
-Ignition (how would you time it?)
-Lubrication system(s). How will both engines be lubricated? You can't keep both engines seperate with a single crankshaft.
-?
Why am I asking? I came upon yet another running Superhawk engine for super cheap and it got the gears 'a goin'.
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