oicdn

Thinking it's just normal engine noise, but I thought I'de post to see...

So you have a little background info, the bike was bought new about a month ago with 0 miles. I gave an EXTREMELY HARD, but correctly, break-in. I let it warm-up, and DOGGED IT the entire way home, with redlines and engine braking the entire way. Got home and changed the oil. So if anything, the rings are seated properly

I've noticed as time has gone by, either I'm just more aware of the fact since I've had it longer, or a ticking has developed. It honestly, rhythm and sound wise, almost identical to that of an alarm clock "tick tick tick tick tick tick". Not a loud tapping, but a ticking, and it's repitition is consistent with that of the motor, as my RPMS increase, so does the ticking.

Funny think is, you can only hear it REALLY GOOD, when you have a helmet on If I ride without a helmet on, the wind noise overpowers it. If you're just sitting there and listening for the noise, it's hard to hear, and probably won't hear it unless I point it out to you... it sounds like it's coming equally from the front and rear jugs, so it may just be normal valvetrain noise? Anybody elses have this noise?

Obviously, since the bike is new, I have a 1 year unlimited mile warranty...will it cost me anything to bring it to the dealer for them to check it out?

RickB

It shouldn't cost you anything to have it looked at under warranty... my'02 has always had a little tick - I bought it with 56 miles on it last March (with remaining factory warranty and Honda extended warranty) and took it in for the noise and a shifter seal leak, no charge from the dealer.

Loco

Sounds like it may be coming from the gearbox then. If it goes up with revs, it is probably tied to something that is "rotating" like a camshaft or drive train.

Les

Who told you that was a proper break-in procedure?

My bike occasionally has a tick tick too. I bought it with 2k on it and it has been treated like a baby.

RickB

I was thinking the same thing... I take it easy for the first 500 - 1000 miles on my bikes, truck, etc - they need to be broken in with some care.

Rick B

Les

Follow the manufacturer's recommendations. The engineers who designed your engine know best on how to break it in and run it.

marmaladedad

So this has no merit?

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

oicdn

^^ That's one of the places I turned to, but not only that, all my motors for VWs, Hondas, my R6, and all my performance motor'd vehicles have hard dyno break-ins. Dyno runs from my the guy who built my VW motor showed time and time again, a PROPER hard break-in DOES seat the riings and you WILL yield higher numbers due to proper ring seating vs a motor that had an "easy" break-in. I didn't have the luxury of a dyno run when I bought my bike (dealer dyno was closed already, I left the dealer at 8pm), I followed my previous engine builders advice on break-in.

The rings DO need to be seated, and that Moto Man is 100% on spot. If anything is to break during the harsh break-in, it was gonna break miles down the road.

Les

If you want to believe that Motoman and/or others know more about breaking in an engine than the engineers at Honda, Subaru, Yamaha etc. then that is up to you. Personally, I will always follow the recommendations of the manfacturer when I breakin an engine. I recently bought a Subaru WRX auto and the recommendation was to keep the rpm below 4k (redline is at 6.5k) for the first 3,000 miles.

marmaladedad

It's hard to believe his claims - if they really were as beneficial as he says, I don't see why the idea is not more well-known/prevalent within motorhead forums.

I posted it up here to see if someone I "know" has tried it. I haven't had the chance, as all my bikes were second-hand.

thetophatflash

I saw nothing in his article that discussed the possibility that service life might be compromised in the quest for better peak performance.

Loco

I don't buy that crap about slamming your seals into place within the first 20 miles. Seems like you would want to take it easy on your engine because all the parts aren't as fully lubricated and smoothed out as they need to be at prolonged redline RPMs and the associated accelerated heating of engine components. I honestly don't see the reasoning behind it, because I don't see much concern from S/H users about premature seal failure or deterioration.

The guy WAS right about one thing: It IS a controversial issue.

Loco

That ticking sound is probably the ticking away of your bike's life clock from all the hard running you just put it through!

swordfish

I've heard that ticking can come from those giant carbs. just the slides slapping, but if it still does it when you rev it, then I don't know. could be the cam chain. I had a seca II that always ticked, and I was told again and again by mechanics that it was normal. but that was a aircolled motor, and the fins tend to resonate engine noises.

oicdn

Had it checked out by my mechanic...it's the sound of the carb slides...nothing unusual, just me being paranoid.

This topic was beaten to DEATH on the R6 boards, and a TON of automobile forums. That page is over 4 years old.....

Ask any engine builder how they break-in a performance motor, both race and one for customers that are daily driven, and they will tell you hard on the dyno. Most automobile manufacturers break-in motors for you before it leaves the assembly line. I know for a FACT GM breaks in ALL thier LT series and Ecotec motors in HARD...I mean VERY HARD. When you buy a Corvette or Camaro, or now a days Cadillac...the odometer says Zero, but the motor has about 2 hours of HARD use on it before it even got dropped in the car on the assembley line.

It is controversial, but if you ever read your manual, it tells you to never lug your motor either, but if you read the "recommended shift points". That you should be shifting into 6th at 37MPH....at 37MPH, you're a bit UNDER 2K RPM. I dunno about you, but that's lugging a motor, and lugging a motor horrible, both for fuel consumption and engine life. A little bit of contradiction given to you by those "all knowing" engineers at Honda. More like, lawyers at Honda.

oicdn

What wouldn't be lubricated? If you have unlubricated parts from the beginning, you're going to have failure. There's no other engine components that needs "break-in" other than ring seating.

And the smoothing out part....is exactly the reason you break it in hard, so you piston walls don't file your rings for blow by. No parts in the engine need any special attention after assembley aside from rings, and POSSIBLY the adjustment of your valves...otherwise, if it breaks during break-in...it was gonna break when you romped on it the first time as there's no reason ANYTHING should break if it's fresh from the factory unless it was assembled incorrectly or was on the verge of failure(there is such a thing as faulty parts from the factory) in the 1st place...

jschmidt

I'm always amazed with how much that dick's advice gets taken. Gotta love the internet. Any pursuasive piece of writing will be taken as gospel.

Best case, its a normal noise or a loose valve. Worst case, its a pitted camshaft. But its really hard to diagnose a noise over the internet.

Les

You bring up a great subject and one that I've wanted to discuss for some time now and that is the recommended shift points in the manual. I too believe that it seems that the engine is lugging at these points. I would like to start a new thread on this one.

caffeineracer

there's some confusion about what is lugging and engine because it doesn't only have to do with RPM.
It also has to do with how much load (throttle position) your putting on the engine at that RPM.

If you were climbing a hill, full throttle, @ 3500 RPM, you'd be lugging the engine.

If you were coasting, slight down hill, small throttle opening, @ 2500 RPM, you wouldn't be lugging the engine.

Speaking of pulling from low RPM.

Today I took the shawk out for the first time in a over a month.
I had forgotten how creamy smooth the low end power is on the shawk.
I mean the SV is no slouch in that area, but the shawk literally pulls smoothly from 2500 rpm!
I think the difference is probably valve timing, the SV being tuned more for mid to high range.

But, (correct me if I'm wrong) I also think compression ratio might have a lot to do with it.

The shawk's a pretty low compression engine at 9.5 , where as the SV got boosted again in 2005 from 11.3 to 11.6 , that's high for a big twin.
That's what it feels like too.
The shawk pulls from low rpm as smoothly as a Briggs & Stratton.
The SV feels rough pulling from low rpm, like the ignition timing's too far advanced, like it's bucking a little.
Later the SV smoothes out and rips to it's 11,000 rpm redline, bouncing off the rev limiter if your not careful.
The shawk pulls strong from down low, but doesn't increase much climbing to it's 9500 redline, at around 9000 the shawk just sort of pushes the fifth of vodka across the table to you, to offer a gear change, and 'another long pull'.

~Jeffers

oicdn

They tell you to take it easy so you get used to the bike, they also dont want to have to warranty a badly put together motor.... its all for the lawyers.

A engine that is boken in hard will last just as long as (or longer) than a motor with an easy break in, AND make significantly more power.

I have recently become friends with a guy who does nothing but build R6 motors and his advise to me..and these are his exact words "do not break it in easy". He said he did 2 motors, one broke in easy and the other broken in on the track and then did a leak down test and tolerance checks on both motors and the track motor faired much better. He is very into these motors and I will trust anything he says. In fact the day one of my buddies get his 06 R6 he is taking the motor out and shipping it to him to go over and SS prep.

Like the fact that the manufacures break in specs(which by the way are created by the engineers that made the bike) are there for increasing the overall life of the engine, not to make it ride good for the first year you own it. but who buys a sportbike and not want it to perform to it's maximum. Also another note worthy thing, most people who own sportbikes, sell them within a year or two...so manufacturers could care less how the bike runs after the 1 year warranty period. Like stated earlier, they don't want to warranty a manufacturer defected motor, or improperly assembled motor. Running it hard assures you of this if you want to look at it that way.

Also, it's a way to cut down on lawsuits. I'de imagine a squid is pretty toast when screaming out a motor at 15K RPM, whereas if it fails at 3K RPM, it'll prolly just shake you up and injur you...maybe kill you, but chances are less likely on a 3K RPM turning motor than a 15K RPM turning motor...like I said, lawsuits, lawsuits....

But finally, How hard you accellerate is everything to break in. With increased load comes increased combustion pressure. This is what forces the rings against the bore. Read the Mototune article. Even if you disagree with his beakin methods, the various phenomena he describes aren't in dispute.


There is no good reason to break a motor in gently, nor to do it for 600-1000 miles with today's manufacturing tolerances. In fact, more than one manufacturer subjects every bike to full-on dyno runs on every bike before they leave the factory. I think Aprilia might be one of them, but I'm not certain. Triumph used to do this, and supply documentary paperwork certifying 'run-in.' Even if Honda disagrees, you can deny Aprilias race heritage/methods...they completely own the 250 class. A motor, concerning break-in, is 2378649873698726 times more important/delicate/controversial than a 4 stroke application....

Sorry for the rant....

Les

You bring up some good points about how a manufacturer wouldn't want to tell a buyer to go off and run his engine hard and I can see that but in general I don't agree with what you say. If running an engine hard was the best way to breakin an engine then the manufacturer would do it at the factory, on a test stand and then claim no breakin is necessary for the buyer. The truth is that an engine needs to be thermal cycled as part of the breakin. Many short rides at low rpms is best. The running and cooling at the factory would take time and cost money so they let the buyer do it. Keep in mind that the goal of the manufacturer is to have his engine run a long time so that the brand gets a reputation for reliability. You have a lot of "claims" about how some manufacturers breakin their engines at the factory hard etc. but do you have anything from that manufacturer that backs up your claim? You use a test case of 2 engines from an engine builder. That's 2! How many test cases do you think Yamaha has had in a period of building motorcycle engines for, I don't really know, maybe 50 yrs. Hmmmmmmmm....I wonder who knows more about breakin and ring seating? Yamaha and their engineering team and 50 yrs. of experience or Joe Schmo putting together modified Yamaha engines? Don't worry man. You didn't do any damage to your engine. It will probably last just as long as mine....I'm serious. We'll both probably be killed by some kid on crystal meth, talking on the cell phone before our VTR engine quits...h ehehehe.....

jschmidt

The reason is that the rings are less likely to break in correctly if they are run hard at the outset. Rough metals tend to burnish (scraping off the high spots) when broken in gently. They tend to gouge when forced together at great pressure or speed.

It's not rocket science, despite what the "rocket scientists" may tell us.

Les

How'd you know I was a "rocket scientist"?

RymerC

Breaking in motors hard is something I would only ry with a dedicated track motor, or something I wouldn't mind rebuilding.

I will say, that every major testing magazine I've ever read has reported faster acceleration from vehicles with some miles on the clock. Road and track even does acceleration runs on it's long-term test vehicles, and with more miles on the cars, they're always faster! They always break in according to manufacturers specifications.

oicdn

The guy has leakdown tests, dyno runs, and actual readings proving the harder ridden motor is better. All he does is build motors. The heat cycliong all occurs during the hard break-in from decelleration and acceleration from engine braking and throttle usage after a proper warm-up. Key is proper warm-up. You don't want to cycle heat so fast into parts that are still extremely cold...

There's a guy on the R6 forum who's buddy works in the Yamaha R&D department(there's actually a couple peoples buddies on that forum who have friends in high places :wink: ). How much input he actually has, I dunno, but when he was approached, he told us "ride it briskly after it's completely warmed up. Warmed up is key. No long cruising at highway speeds, and no motor lugging. I think spirited riding is probably a better term..." He didn't say "the lawyers made us write that in the manuals" but it's pretty straight foreward and clear to me when you have one R&D Yamaha employee, a couple 'Joe Schmoes' who do nothing but build race prepped motors, AND Triumph show documentation of thier motors having certain amount of run-in time all say the same thing. That's more than enough for me....

The people I referenced have a plethora of backgrounds building nothing but performance motors.

Jake Raby - Arguably THE BEST VW aircooled motor builder
Tim from Manatapart - Engineer, builds GMs SEMA cars
Tom - Local performance shop owner. Has built COUNTLESS 3 rotor Wankel engines on top of VW aircooled and water-cooled motors...as well as your typical performance rice shop stuff. This guy builds drag cars, and daily driven TT Supras in excess of 600WHP...I tend to take his word seriously.

That list is coupled with the previously mentioned in other posts. they all break-in thier motors hard. Any of them could be on a Manufacturer R&D team(as could anybody with the knowledge if they were hiring), but instead of working for somebody, they work for themselves. All of them probably forgotten more than most people will ever know....

I know my motor and everybody elses motor on here will last a long time regardless of how it was broken in....at this point, it just comes down to whos is the most efficient. Again, I personally will take the advice of people who do nothing but build motors all day, over the advice of a manual that says I should be in 6th gear at 37mph, but not to lug the motor Regardless, I just use the manual for reference, not law, as I'm sure most people on here do.

But this topic is again controversial....the type where once you have your opinion, this is one of those topics that no matter what, most people will not change what thier opinion is...but it's good...it keeps the spark here on

Randman

Well I heard that when you buy a new bike, if you put peanut butter in the gas tank on the first fill up, then jump off your bike at every red light and run circles around it til it turns green, when you get home, take a **** on it.....well it will last forever.....I don't know about you, but that is how I plan on breaking my next new bike in....I mean it just makes sense...and it was documented in MAD Magazine....so there is the proof.....nuff for me....

jschmidt

The guy's sample is two motors. You don't really believe that break-in was the only variable, do you?

And what does he provide as the engineering explanation for his conclusion? Something about heat cycling? Is that an idea he transferred from tires? Really, what is his explanation for why his conclusion is correct? What does he think occurs?

I don't doubt you. And the guy may build a great motor. But every engineering principle has a valid and logical explanation (such as the one I provided.)

oicdn

But what's the reasoning behind a gentle break-in? There isn't one except for the one fact the manual says to.

When somebody goes against the grain (not refering to me or Motoman, just generally speaking), people are quick to jump to "well, the engineers at ____ said to, so it's law..." assumption. Nobody ever really sits and LOGICALLY thinks about it.

You may disagree with his methods, but pictures tell the story.

motojoe

I have noticed a mild "ticking" noise over the last year. Yes, you can hear it better while riding with a helmet on. It sounds like it is comming from the front cylinder or the air box. It sound the most audible at about 3500rpms. Once you get on the throttle hard and increase the rpms(5000 up), the ticking seems to disappear or the noise of the motor blocks out the sound. Can't determine which.
Everyone I ask to listen to the motor, says it's normal. I have owned this bike for 6 years and have 30,000 miles on it. Service is peformed as required and oil changed every 2000 miles. The valves are always within spec. Only Honda oil is used. I have not done the "Pair valve" blockoff yet.
I will try that and see if it quiets things down a bit. I did replace the cam chain tentioners when I first heard the noise, hoping that solve the issue. Not the case. Any suggestions to what the noise might be?

superbikemike

I bought a 98 Superhawk with 9000 miles. I'm guessing by what I know about the previous owner it was broken in gently, and treated and stored really well. The bike is totally stock and has none of the things i've read about on here such as clunk die, ticking, etc. There is something to be said about the design. Maybe those who are not happy with the bike should get something else? I'm sure I'll get a response from this!