Riding Techniques
03-20-2006, 07:34 PM
#1
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Riding Techniques
I just got a VTR with a ton of goodies on it and I should probably figure out how to better ride it to its potential. I've learned a lot about riding dirtbikes by reading about riding techniques, but there's only some of that I can carry over to the sportbike world. Does anyone have a link to good reading about sportbike riding techniques? I could probably use everything from some pretty basic stuff to more advanced. For example, I have a hard time feeling "in control" when I'm more tucked, but I know that's the more preferred position for aggressive riding.
If there is good information for a passenger to read that would be helpful too. My wife wanted a bike so she could ride on the back. Going through some mild twisties this weekend I found out a few things about bike setup (could have used more preload) and how I needed her to hold on better (felt sluggish leaning into corners) the hard way.
If there is good information for a passenger to read that would be helpful too. My wife wanted a bike so she could ride on the back. Going through some mild twisties this weekend I found out a few things about bike setup (could have used more preload) and how I needed her to hold on better (felt sluggish leaning into corners) the hard way.
03-20-2006, 08:45 PM
#2
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There are some things about dirt riding that you should try not to forget, such as controlled rear slides and basic throttle control. The sides have saved me a bunch of times plus with a dirt background you'll know what to do instinctively if you do lose traction. As for the street / track books here's a link to some I left on another post.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/viewt...=2406&start=30
https://www.superhawkforum.com/viewt...=2406&start=30
03-20-2006, 08:58 PM
#3
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Jeesh....I never fully read the post before I write stuff. 
I at one time wanted to race side car motorcycles and I wanted to be the passenger. They had a term for the passenger and this is what your wife has to be, a "monkey". When I was 15 and my brother was 17 we took his vfr500 on some twisties and he almost dragged a knee while I had part of my boot ground down from the pavement. Tell her to stay close hang on tight and lean with you at all times and most of all trust you. It probably felt sluggish because she was trying to sit up instead of leaning most people do. They also make some aids to hanging on like a belt with loops to hang on to. I liked having grab rails when I was a pylon but they don't have them unless you add them on.
As far as position, you're used to an upright, leg out position for dirt riding it will come to you in time. Track days are definitely a way to learn quicker without the distractions of the road as are road courses. Oh I guess I should've said I started out riding MX as an 8yr old so I do understand the awkward feeling.
I at one time wanted to race side car motorcycles and I wanted to be the passenger. They had a term for the passenger and this is what your wife has to be, a "monkey". When I was 15 and my brother was 17 we took his vfr500 on some twisties and he almost dragged a knee while I had part of my boot ground down from the pavement. Tell her to stay close hang on tight and lean with you at all times and most of all trust you. It probably felt sluggish because she was trying to sit up instead of leaning most people do. They also make some aids to hanging on like a belt with loops to hang on to. I liked having grab rails when I was a pylon but they don't have them unless you add them on. As far as position, you're used to an upright, leg out position for dirt riding it will come to you in time. Track days are definitely a way to learn quicker without the distractions of the road as are road courses. Oh I guess I should've said I started out riding MX as an 8yr old so I do understand the awkward feeling.
03-21-2006, 06:55 AM
#4
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Location: Trussville, Alabama
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Re: Riding Techniques
First thing - it is very smart for you (and all of us) to seek information and coaching to improve our skills.
I have ridden a lot of miles, quite a bit of it hard and fast, and I CRAVE information and experience that makes me a better rider.
My son rides two up with me a good bit in and around the Deal's Gap area. Occasionally around town or on the hiway, but most of our miles are spent riding "hard".
As mentioned above, tell the passenger to stick to you and NEVER make a position adjustment in a turn. That is, the passenger should never shift around their position while you have it leaned over in a turn.
When my son and I first started making fast runs through twisties together, I told him to imagine my back and his front are covered with velcro. He leans against my back and he is stuck to me. Where I go, he goes. He doesn't second guess and lean where he thinks he needs to be. He becomes an extension of me and then I get to control where we go and how much we lean.
You might need to pay attention to tire pressure when riding two up. You mentioned suspension adjustments, so you already know about that.
A few general points:
It seems simple but I believe it CAN NOT be stressed enough: look where you WANT TO GO, not where you DON'T want to go.
Relax - muscle tension slows your reactions and (my experience) tends to exaggerate mistakes. I once hit a small pothole at a major lean, rolling along pretty fast. I was kind of loosey-goosey in the seat and on the bars. The bike wallowed a few times, then settled out and we kept right on going.
Move around in the seat, get comfortable shifting your weight, slide your butt a little to the inside as you enter turns. Relax. Use your body to help you turn. Relax. Experiment with shifting weight to the footpeg on the inside of the turn, to help you turn the bike. Relax.
Some people don't like it and don't feel comfortable with it, but I suggest practicing and getting familiar with trail braking. Being able to comfortably apply the front brake while entering a turn (well actually AFTER you have already entered the trun and are leaned over) can really help avoid the felt need to abandon the turn, straighten up and get on the brakes. Today's tires, brakes and chassis are up to the task. Learn to trust 'em.
I am a big fan of "smooth is fast". I'll tell you, I am NOT the fastest rider out there. But I don't often get embarassed about being too slow. I find myself repeating inside my head as I ride '"smooth is fast, smooth is fast".
I just enjoy trying to ride smmmooottthlllyyy. I can, at times ride "faster" if I just shift into 110% mode, but to me, that just doen't belong on the road. (Especially now that I have been back on the track for a Track Day)
And that brings me to my final bit of advice - try you best to do a Track Day.
NESBA and Sport Bike Tracktime run really good track days.
You have access to skilled control riders and maybe most important - a safe place to test yourself and your bike.
You can learn WAY more WAY faster on the track than you can on the street.
Oh, one last thing, If you plan to ride in a more "spirited" fashion, do NOT get sport touring tires. Get Sport rubber. (ex. Michelin Pilot Powers, Dunlop Qualifiers, etc.) There IS a difference.
Disclaimer - this is stuff that seems to work for me. Your results may differ.
have fun and ride safe.
edit to add: one thing to keep in mind: the rotating mass of the front/rear tire and wheel assemblies provides a lot of gyroscopic effect that will keep the bike centered and rolling in a straight line. At dirt bike speeds (throw in the rough terrain) the gyroscopic effect is less noteable.
On a fast sport bike, you become more of a passenger and seek to "coach" the bike where you want it to go. Maybe that's not the right word, but hopefully you get the picture. It's just different form a dirt bike. You mentioned feeling less "in control". Not sure exactly waht to tell you other than relax and trust the bike and tires to be capable of doing more than you (and I!) are generally capable of demanding.
In my experience if I am forced to STEER my bike like I used to steer my dirt bikes, I have screwed up somewhere and am trying to make a forced input to correct my blunder.
One LAST thing - BEWARE COLD TIRES !!
I have ridden a lot of miles, quite a bit of it hard and fast, and I CRAVE information and experience that makes me a better rider.
My son rides two up with me a good bit in and around the Deal's Gap area. Occasionally around town or on the hiway, but most of our miles are spent riding "hard".
As mentioned above, tell the passenger to stick to you and NEVER make a position adjustment in a turn. That is, the passenger should never shift around their position while you have it leaned over in a turn.
When my son and I first started making fast runs through twisties together, I told him to imagine my back and his front are covered with velcro. He leans against my back and he is stuck to me. Where I go, he goes. He doesn't second guess and lean where he thinks he needs to be. He becomes an extension of me and then I get to control where we go and how much we lean.
You might need to pay attention to tire pressure when riding two up. You mentioned suspension adjustments, so you already know about that.
A few general points:
It seems simple but I believe it CAN NOT be stressed enough: look where you WANT TO GO, not where you DON'T want to go.
Relax - muscle tension slows your reactions and (my experience) tends to exaggerate mistakes. I once hit a small pothole at a major lean, rolling along pretty fast. I was kind of loosey-goosey in the seat and on the bars. The bike wallowed a few times, then settled out and we kept right on going.
Move around in the seat, get comfortable shifting your weight, slide your butt a little to the inside as you enter turns. Relax. Use your body to help you turn. Relax. Experiment with shifting weight to the footpeg on the inside of the turn, to help you turn the bike. Relax.
Some people don't like it and don't feel comfortable with it, but I suggest practicing and getting familiar with trail braking. Being able to comfortably apply the front brake while entering a turn (well actually AFTER you have already entered the trun and are leaned over) can really help avoid the felt need to abandon the turn, straighten up and get on the brakes. Today's tires, brakes and chassis are up to the task. Learn to trust 'em.
I am a big fan of "smooth is fast". I'll tell you, I am NOT the fastest rider out there. But I don't often get embarassed about being too slow. I find myself repeating inside my head as I ride '"smooth is fast, smooth is fast".
I just enjoy trying to ride smmmooottthlllyyy. I can, at times ride "faster" if I just shift into 110% mode, but to me, that just doen't belong on the road. (Especially now that I have been back on the track for a Track Day)
And that brings me to my final bit of advice - try you best to do a Track Day.
NESBA and Sport Bike Tracktime run really good track days.
You have access to skilled control riders and maybe most important - a safe place to test yourself and your bike.
You can learn WAY more WAY faster on the track than you can on the street.
Oh, one last thing, If you plan to ride in a more "spirited" fashion, do NOT get sport touring tires. Get Sport rubber. (ex. Michelin Pilot Powers, Dunlop Qualifiers, etc.) There IS a difference.
Disclaimer - this is stuff that seems to work for me. Your results may differ.
have fun and ride safe.
edit to add: one thing to keep in mind: the rotating mass of the front/rear tire and wheel assemblies provides a lot of gyroscopic effect that will keep the bike centered and rolling in a straight line. At dirt bike speeds (throw in the rough terrain) the gyroscopic effect is less noteable.
On a fast sport bike, you become more of a passenger and seek to "coach" the bike where you want it to go. Maybe that's not the right word, but hopefully you get the picture. It's just different form a dirt bike. You mentioned feeling less "in control". Not sure exactly waht to tell you other than relax and trust the bike and tires to be capable of doing more than you (and I!) are generally capable of demanding.
In my experience if I am forced to STEER my bike like I used to steer my dirt bikes, I have screwed up somewhere and am trying to make a forced input to correct my blunder.
One LAST thing - BEWARE COLD TIRES !!
03-21-2006, 10:12 AM
#6
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Thanks for the replys guys! I definitely won't forget the dirtbike skills. I've been doing that for over half my life now. I had the rear wheel of the VTR get a little loose on a freeway onramp (little too much throttle & cold night I guess) but that wasn't too hairy.
I think I'm getting some inadvertent practice trail braking. The bike rides so nice and smooth that sometimes I don't realize how fast I'm coming up to a corner. I end up braking well into the lean and hoping that front tire stays gripped. I'm not talking like 100mph stuff, more like going 30mph when I'm close to some tight right-hander going into a neighborhood. I figured out one technique doing that the other day. If I keep my body further forward (tucked more) the front feels a lot more planted than if I'm more upright. That's similar to dirtbiking in that if I'm making a really aggressive corner sometimes I'll have to have my body almost over the bars. It's just a whole different position on the sportbike.
This sounds counterintuitive to me: "Experiment with shifting weight to the footpeg on the inside of the turn, to help you turn the bike." I've been told over and over again that when cornering you want to put as much weight as possible on the outside peg to get the tires driving into the ground. Is it less of a concern on pavement?
I'll check into books and track days. If there is any reading on the net in the meantime that would be cool too. I was thinking of staying away from track days, but if I can get out there with people who aren't blazing fast or out of control I guess it wouldn't be too bad. Maybe there's a beginner day.
I think I'm getting some inadvertent practice trail braking. The bike rides so nice and smooth that sometimes I don't realize how fast I'm coming up to a corner. I end up braking well into the lean and hoping that front tire stays gripped. I'm not talking like 100mph stuff, more like going 30mph when I'm close to some tight right-hander going into a neighborhood. I figured out one technique doing that the other day. If I keep my body further forward (tucked more) the front feels a lot more planted than if I'm more upright. That's similar to dirtbiking in that if I'm making a really aggressive corner sometimes I'll have to have my body almost over the bars. It's just a whole different position on the sportbike.
This sounds counterintuitive to me: "Experiment with shifting weight to the footpeg on the inside of the turn, to help you turn the bike." I've been told over and over again that when cornering you want to put as much weight as possible on the outside peg to get the tires driving into the ground. Is it less of a concern on pavement?
I'll check into books and track days. If there is any reading on the net in the meantime that would be cool too. I was thinking of staying away from track days, but if I can get out there with people who aren't blazing fast or out of control I guess it wouldn't be too bad. Maybe there's a beginner day.
03-21-2006, 10:16 AM
#7
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Two-up advice: Get your pillion to support most of her weight during accel/decel by squeezing her legs, instead of pulling/pushing on you.
You can also give her a good understanding of how her shifting around affects the bike by letting her move right and left while you stay straight up. Use a lonely stretch of straight road and instruct her about how much and how fast to throw her weight around.
You can also give her a good understanding of how her shifting around affects the bike by letting her move right and left while you stay straight up. Use a lonely stretch of straight road and instruct her about how much and how fast to throw her weight around.
03-21-2006, 12:56 PM
#8
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Negative yardstick. You dont want your weight on the outside peg. The idea is to shift as much to the inside as possible. that is why you see racers leaned almost completely off their bike to the inside. HOWEVER, one reason I've been told (by racers) to shift your weight to the outside peg is if your rear suspension is too soft (stock certainly is) you don't want to be bumped off the rear seat. The teacher behind me said that I was leaning fine, but I should shift some weight to the footpeg to absorb the shock of hitting something bumpy on the track. This goes double for the road, where conditions vary wildly.
Ideally you want to be as far from your front end as you can during heavy braking. The stoppie is actually a very bad braking technique (where you lean almost over the front end and brake like hell). That indicates 100% weight shift to the front wheel and you can't brake any harder than that. The more weight you can keep off the front wheel during braking the better. During a hard corner, your front suspension should be pretty close to compressed, and you don't have a lot of room to compress it further by braking hard, so I find that you're really limited there.
It is however a good idea to have your weight shifted somewhat forward in a curve, but more importantly to the inside, and not so much over the tank. The problem with trail braking is you are combining two aspects of riding that really should be separated: braking and leaning.
Trail braking is good and all, but it's far better IMHO to have your entry speed correct and not have to slow down in a turn. Here's why: You only have so much attention you can spend in a turn (anybody recognize the source for this knowledge yet?). You won't be able to know exactly what your best speed for a corner is if you are worried about coming in too hot. This goes for just about any corner, not just twisties or trackday stuff. Also, as I'm sure you've noticed, if you are not smooth coming off your brake while trail braking, you can seriously jar your front end while leaned over. This is another reason/way to be smooth, like was mentioned earlier.
Once you get more comfortable with how your bike handles, try going around curves slower, but not using any brake at all. You will be amazed at how well you will notice entry speed and lean angle and traction when you dont have to worry about applying brake. This has to be a conscious effort, so really focus on it if it's a problem area for you. It was for me for a long time.
Honestly, this style of riding is not for beginners, and even though you have dirtbike experience, I would suggest not adhering to these techniques until you have been riding street for a while. This stuff we are posting here is very technical and is wayyy more than you need as a newer rider.
Ideally you want to be as far from your front end as you can during heavy braking. The stoppie is actually a very bad braking technique (where you lean almost over the front end and brake like hell). That indicates 100% weight shift to the front wheel and you can't brake any harder than that. The more weight you can keep off the front wheel during braking the better. During a hard corner, your front suspension should be pretty close to compressed, and you don't have a lot of room to compress it further by braking hard, so I find that you're really limited there.
It is however a good idea to have your weight shifted somewhat forward in a curve, but more importantly to the inside, and not so much over the tank. The problem with trail braking is you are combining two aspects of riding that really should be separated: braking and leaning.
Trail braking is good and all, but it's far better IMHO to have your entry speed correct and not have to slow down in a turn. Here's why: You only have so much attention you can spend in a turn (anybody recognize the source for this knowledge yet?). You won't be able to know exactly what your best speed for a corner is if you are worried about coming in too hot. This goes for just about any corner, not just twisties or trackday stuff. Also, as I'm sure you've noticed, if you are not smooth coming off your brake while trail braking, you can seriously jar your front end while leaned over. This is another reason/way to be smooth, like was mentioned earlier.
Once you get more comfortable with how your bike handles, try going around curves slower, but not using any brake at all. You will be amazed at how well you will notice entry speed and lean angle and traction when you dont have to worry about applying brake. This has to be a conscious effort, so really focus on it if it's a problem area for you. It was for me for a long time.
Honestly, this style of riding is not for beginners, and even though you have dirtbike experience, I would suggest not adhering to these techniques until you have been riding street for a while. This stuff we are posting here is very technical and is wayyy more than you need as a newer rider.
03-21-2006, 02:55 PM
#9
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Merritt,MI.
Posts: 474
Re: Riding Techniques
the biggest problem I had when going from in-line fours to my superhawk was the engine braking.I was letting off the throttle way to early for stop-lights or stop signs.Also letting off to early comming into turns.But you can't help but smile when acc. away from lights or out of corners!!!
03-21-2006, 03:40 PM
#10
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Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 206
Re: Riding Techniques
I came from the dirtbike world too and I must say, some of the quickest (not necessarily fastest) riders I have seen are those supermoto guys. The nice thing about learning on the dirt from my perspective is you know you don't want to go down on the street because you have probably spent some time going down hard off road and don't want to multiply that feeling by a factor of pavement!
It really amazes me how much I thought I knew about riding (I got my first MX bike at 6) because I was a off road rider, and have learned since I got the bird and started listening to some of the guys around here. There is a wellspring of knowledge that can be tapped here, and everyone can learn something from someone else's question, I think.
Welcome to the club.
Another thing, someone mentioned target lock. I never believed it existed until I did some experiments while riding and found that it's alive and well! That one little piece of riding info may have saved a nasty crash a couple times since. . .
It really amazes me how much I thought I knew about riding (I got my first MX bike at 6) because I was a off road rider, and have learned since I got the bird and started listening to some of the guys around here. There is a wellspring of knowledge that can be tapped here, and everyone can learn something from someone else's question, I think.
Welcome to the club.
Another thing, someone mentioned target lock. I never believed it existed until I did some experiments while riding and found that it's alive and well! That one little piece of riding info may have saved a nasty crash a couple times since. . .
03-21-2006, 05:18 PM
#11
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Trussville, Alabama
Posts: 406
Re: Riding Techniques
Wow, what a good thread this is. Some good info being bounced around!
Regarding weight on the inside peg: Try it. Ride down the road straight and push down on one peg. The bike will steer in that direction. Same thing if you apply pressure with the knee to the side of the tank opposite the peg you are pushing down on.
The whole hanging off/knee draggin thing: The purpose is to keep the bike more upright and therefore more of the good part of the tire in contact with the road. The knee will come natural when you get to that point. It serves as a darned good reference and keeps you "in touch" with the bike and the asphalt when much of your body is hanging off the bike. When you get to riding like this, the weight on the peg, and pressure on the tank all become part of setting up for, and executing the turn. Sort of a package deal!
Really skilled riders (and I do mean really skilled) can use the knee on-the-fly to correct front end push and other undesireable things we don't enjoy having to deal with. When you get to that point, tell me what it's like and how you do it.
I know exactly what you mean regarding the weight forward thing. I suffered from the same feeling. I softened the preload on the front forks and it made a big difference. With the stiffer front end, I just wasn't getting enought weight transfer to the front and as a result, the front end never seemed to be really planted. I had it wash out several times, but that was a combination of poor supsension setup and asking too much of the tires (Sport Touring Rubber) Even now, I find my bike works best for me when I do load the front end a little more than I might would have guessed was normal (?). I'm no Duhamel, but I have scratched out and continue to find what works bets for me.
As mentioned above (good point by the way) in a turn get your weight forward and to the inside of the turn. Almost like your head and shoulders are pointing (or leading) the way in the direction you want to go. That's just how it works out when it all comes together. Watch race clips and still photos. You'll "get the picture". (Notice in several Avatars here - head forward and inside. low res pics, but you can tell)
There is some debate (I guess you could call it that) over trail braking. It has only become a viable option really with the huge improvements in tires. Today's tires can support trail braking, and I find myself FAR more comfortable knowing I can apply the front brake in a controled manner and feel comfortable the front end will stick. I have done it more times than I could ever count and have NO DOUBT it has saved me from giving up on the turn and sitting up in the seat to apply brake. When you do that, you're likely going to see the turn go in a different direction from the one you are headed. That is not a good thing. I do not know how to advise on this subject. Mine has all been a manner of having to fix an "Uh Oh" on the fly and learning from experience what my personal comfort level limits are.
Target fixation. I can't say it enough. IT IS A REAL THING and I don't think enough folks understand and respect it. I have been behind guys (Tail of the Dragon) and watched them ride straight off the road in a turn. They rode straight where they fixed their eyes. In each case, they could have made the turn, but got spooked, looked where they were AFRAID they were headed. No need to guess where they wound up heading.....
I guess my favorite thing about the SH is the torque and the fun you can have in second gear. Spinning / slipping the rear tire is just plain old fun.
Oh, mentioning that...
If you ever feel the rear end break free and start to spin, do NOT chop the throttle off. That is a recipe for a nice high side. When you chop the gas, the rear tire hooks up at an angle different from the direction you (and the bike) are headed. Things can get real ugly from that point on.
You'll be suprised how well you can do with your wife on back once you two get comfortable and start working as a single unit. I think that is the key.
Kudos to all the input. It is nice to share experiences with a repsectful group of fellow riders.
I tell you, you can go to Killboy.com and look back through his archives. you'll see some really good pics of some really good riders, and some not so good
It's a good place to look at lots of different folks on lots of different bikes. You'll be able to get the feel for what looks right and what looks wrong.
Oh yes, on more thing: BEWARE COLD TIRES !! :wink:
Regarding weight on the inside peg: Try it. Ride down the road straight and push down on one peg. The bike will steer in that direction. Same thing if you apply pressure with the knee to the side of the tank opposite the peg you are pushing down on.
The whole hanging off/knee draggin thing: The purpose is to keep the bike more upright and therefore more of the good part of the tire in contact with the road. The knee will come natural when you get to that point. It serves as a darned good reference and keeps you "in touch" with the bike and the asphalt when much of your body is hanging off the bike. When you get to riding like this, the weight on the peg, and pressure on the tank all become part of setting up for, and executing the turn. Sort of a package deal!
Really skilled riders (and I do mean really skilled) can use the knee on-the-fly to correct front end push and other undesireable things we don't enjoy having to deal with. When you get to that point, tell me what it's like and how you do it.
I know exactly what you mean regarding the weight forward thing. I suffered from the same feeling. I softened the preload on the front forks and it made a big difference. With the stiffer front end, I just wasn't getting enought weight transfer to the front and as a result, the front end never seemed to be really planted. I had it wash out several times, but that was a combination of poor supsension setup and asking too much of the tires (Sport Touring Rubber) Even now, I find my bike works best for me when I do load the front end a little more than I might would have guessed was normal (?). I'm no Duhamel, but I have scratched out and continue to find what works bets for me.
As mentioned above (good point by the way) in a turn get your weight forward and to the inside of the turn. Almost like your head and shoulders are pointing (or leading) the way in the direction you want to go. That's just how it works out when it all comes together. Watch race clips and still photos. You'll "get the picture". (Notice in several Avatars here - head forward and inside. low res pics, but you can tell)
There is some debate (I guess you could call it that) over trail braking. It has only become a viable option really with the huge improvements in tires. Today's tires can support trail braking, and I find myself FAR more comfortable knowing I can apply the front brake in a controled manner and feel comfortable the front end will stick. I have done it more times than I could ever count and have NO DOUBT it has saved me from giving up on the turn and sitting up in the seat to apply brake. When you do that, you're likely going to see the turn go in a different direction from the one you are headed. That is not a good thing. I do not know how to advise on this subject. Mine has all been a manner of having to fix an "Uh Oh" on the fly and learning from experience what my personal comfort level limits are.
Target fixation. I can't say it enough. IT IS A REAL THING and I don't think enough folks understand and respect it. I have been behind guys (Tail of the Dragon) and watched them ride straight off the road in a turn. They rode straight where they fixed their eyes. In each case, they could have made the turn, but got spooked, looked where they were AFRAID they were headed. No need to guess where they wound up heading.....
I guess my favorite thing about the SH is the torque and the fun you can have in second gear. Spinning / slipping the rear tire is just plain old fun.
Oh, mentioning that...
If you ever feel the rear end break free and start to spin, do NOT chop the throttle off. That is a recipe for a nice high side. When you chop the gas, the rear tire hooks up at an angle different from the direction you (and the bike) are headed. Things can get real ugly from that point on.
You'll be suprised how well you can do with your wife on back once you two get comfortable and start working as a single unit. I think that is the key.
Kudos to all the input. It is nice to share experiences with a repsectful group of fellow riders.
I tell you, you can go to Killboy.com and look back through his archives. you'll see some really good pics of some really good riders, and some not so good
It's a good place to look at lots of different folks on lots of different bikes. You'll be able to get the feel for what looks right and what looks wrong.
Oh yes, on more thing: BEWARE COLD TIRES !! :wink:
03-21-2006, 08:19 PM
#13
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gainesville FLA.
Posts: 3,844
Good stuff guys! I too enjoy trail braking and once you get used to it, it can be really fun. The brakes make the bike want to stay more upright but if you do it right you slow it down just enough let go of the brakes and it just dives in....good times...good times. Most trackdays are set up in three groups, novice, intermediate and expert, some of the people in the novice group are just that...never been on a bike. The track I ride has a newbie day about every three months or so, they keep it to 20 riders per group and it's more casual. One of the tips I was told is to line your head up with where the mirrors are or at least the mounts and **** to the tank. On the track I take at least a cheek off the seat somtimes more. I also have a mantra when I feel nervous about a turn, I started it when I was on the track in the rain. Trust the bike and trust yourself, like mentioned before the street bikes of today can handle just about anything you throw at it. If that doesn't work sometimes I just scream real loud in my helmet and grab a wrist full of throttle 
......lets you know you're alive! :wink:
Most trackdays are set up in three groups, novice, intermediate and expert, some of the people in the novice group are just that...never been on a bike. The track I ride has a newbie day about every three months or so, they keep it to 20 riders per group and it's more casual. One of the tips I was told is to line your head up with where the mirrors are or at least the mounts and **** to the tank. On the track I take at least a cheek off the seat somtimes more. I also have a mantra when I feel nervous about a turn, I started it when I was on the track in the rain. Trust the bike and trust yourself, like mentioned before the street bikes of today can handle just about anything you throw at it. If that doesn't work sometimes I just scream real loud in my helmet and grab a wrist full of throttle ......lets you know you're alive! :wink:
03-22-2006, 09:37 AM
#14
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Re: Riding Techniques
Thanks for the great info guys! Keep it coming, I'm sucking it up like a sponge! Now if I could only get out and apply some of this instead of driving the cage every day. I don't know how familiar anyone is with it, but I've got the silver Carbotech (Carbotex) bike.
I should clarify that my braking/turning (trail braking) adventures haven't included leaning forward (at least not much). I did find that I didn't have to brake as much and could take a corner much faster/tighter if I had more weight forward.
Target Fixation - Yeah, been there, done that. Dirtbiking, mountain biking, skiing, ice skating, shooting even... I know all about that phenomenon! When I was learning to ski I took out the group... probably because of the well developed girl I had a hard time taking my eyes off of. 
I knew a guy a long time ago that learned about target fixation the really hard way by almost riding his dirtbike off a cliff. The only ledge for 50 feet in either direction up and down the trail caught him and his bike.
It still seems strange that you'd want weight on the inside peg on a turn. I could understand having your weight mostly on the outside peg and your body leaned inside to keep the bike more upright. The weight on the ouside peg would kind of force your body to the inside of the turn. At least that's making sense in my head. There might also be a size issue here. Being a bigger guy I can probably do something like what I'm describing. I could imagine smaller person having to take all the weight off the outside peg to get their weight inside. I'll have to go ride and figure it out.
I don't know how familiar anyone is with it, but I've got the silver Carbotech (Carbotex) bike. I should clarify that my braking/turning (trail braking) adventures haven't included leaning forward (at least not much). I did find that I didn't have to brake as much and could take a corner much faster/tighter if I had more weight forward.
Target Fixation - Yeah, been there, done that.
Dirtbiking, mountain biking, skiing, ice skating, shooting even... I know all about that phenomenon! When I was learning to ski I took out the group... probably because of the well developed girl I had a hard time taking my eyes off of. I knew a guy a long time ago that learned about target fixation the really hard way by almost riding his dirtbike off a cliff. The only ledge for 50 feet in either direction up and down the trail caught him and his bike. It still seems strange that you'd want weight on the inside peg on a turn. I could understand having your weight mostly on the outside peg and your body leaned inside to keep the bike more upright. The weight on the ouside peg would kind of force your body to the inside of the turn. At least that's making sense in my head. There might also be a size issue here. Being a bigger guy I can probably do something like what I'm describing. I could imagine smaller person having to take all the weight off the outside peg to get their weight inside. I'll have to go ride and figure it out.
03-22-2006, 10:55 AM
#15
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Squid
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 24
Re: Riding Techniques
Yardstick... us, ahem... bigger guys do have to make small adjustments in our weight shifting... but the principals remain the same. Just practice in smaller intervals then the hundred pound folks out there. Throwing two-fourty around, I do things a little less extreme, but get the same results. 
03-22-2006, 11:17 AM
#16
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Exactly,
To be clear here, Keith Code suggests keeping your weight on the outside peg, but moving the mass of your body to the inside during a hard turn. This isn't always possible for newer riders, because it's a lot to think about.
I like the Carbochicken, that is a superclean machine. If you drop it, I swear to god I'm coming to your city and I'm bitch-slapping you for ruining such a beautiful ride. Then I'll show you some riding tips.
To be clear here, Keith Code suggests keeping your weight on the outside peg, but moving the mass of your body to the inside during a hard turn. This isn't always possible for newer riders, because it's a lot to think about.
I like the Carbochicken, that is a superclean machine. If you drop it, I swear to god I'm coming to your city and I'm bitch-slapping you for ruining such a beautiful ride. Then I'll show you some riding tips.
03-22-2006, 11:41 AM
#17
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Re: Riding Techniques
Now that makes more sense! I'm a pretty technical rider on a dirtbike, but over the years I've gotten a lot smoother about it. It's almost instinctive now although sometimes I have to remind myself to put more weight on that outside peg. I'm hoping to pick up as much as I can as quickly and safely as I can with the carbochicken. Hopefully I never dump it! I'll probably get bitch slapped for being so slow on a bike so much more cabable than I am before that happens!
03-22-2006, 03:36 PM
#19
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Superstock
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: Riding Techniques
Yardstick,
The difference in peg weighting is due to its use in two different applications.
In the dirt your surface is very dynamic, the machines are lighter/taller, and speeds are slower. Weighting the outside peg gives more grip to a rear tire breaking free in a turn or a berm allowing you more control to steer with the rear wheel.
Road surfaces will generally allow for much higher grip at the rear wheel unless you are riding out of control. Turning in by pressing the hand grip forward on the side you are turning to while pressing down lightly on the inside peg, and pressing your knee against the tank on the side opposite of your turn will give you quick, controlled, smooth turn in. The peg and tank pressures are not to turn the machine or add grip to the tires but to allow you support and control of your body in relation to the machine. If you get the bike turned in and are flopping around on the bike YOU will cause the bike to become unstable by unintentionally affecting the steering due to your weight shifts. As mentioned previously the gyroscopic effect of the turning wheels and the engine’s spinning mass want to keep the bike moving in a straight line. In most tank slappers the bike will settle down and go straight once the rider has bailed off or been thrown off. In an amazing video Loco posted you can see the bike stabilize after he is off the seat. Even with the rider hanging on and dragging along side the bike, the bike wants to go straight. Scary to watch but an amazing recovery!
Hanging off was actually ridiculed when Kenny Roberts brought the technique from his flat track experience to road racing in the mid to later 70’s. After he won 6 of 7 Formula One races in ’77 no one was laughing at him and his style. When the speed you will go through a corner at requires more lean angle than tire grip can support hanging off comes into play. By hanging off your body acts like an outrigger placing weight low and off to the side of the machine’s center of gravity. By having counteractive weight further inside the turn you can carry more speed with less required lean angle. Less lean angle will keep more of the tire in contact with the surface of the road. Hanging off is an advanced technique and takes time and practice to get it right. Superhawk22 has a nice avatar showing good form.
Trail braking though useful in some cases (at advanced levels) can get you in trouble if you learn to rely on it. If you are having to apply the brakes once your in the turn (not trail braking) you may have miss judged you entry speed or did not realize it was a decreasing radius turn. A motto I try to follow is “slower in faster out”. Late braking and rushing the entry doesn’t mean anything if you have to upset the chassis, slow down, or run wide to get through the turn. Besides isn’t it more fun to come out of the corner “nose in the air”. I can't find the link to Loco's video but I hope these links are interesting. There are a lot of thoughts on the "right" way to do things.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php
http://www.ridemyown.com/articles/ne..._corners.shtml
http://www.classrides.com/feedbk5.html
http://www.transworldmotocross.com/m...038317,00.html
The difference in peg weighting is due to its use in two different applications.
In the dirt your surface is very dynamic, the machines are lighter/taller, and speeds are slower. Weighting the outside peg gives more grip to a rear tire breaking free in a turn or a berm allowing you more control to steer with the rear wheel.
Road surfaces will generally allow for much higher grip at the rear wheel unless you are riding out of control. Turning in by pressing the hand grip forward on the side you are turning to while pressing down lightly on the inside peg, and pressing your knee against the tank on the side opposite of your turn will give you quick, controlled, smooth turn in. The peg and tank pressures are not to turn the machine or add grip to the tires but to allow you support and control of your body in relation to the machine. If you get the bike turned in and are flopping around on the bike YOU will cause the bike to become unstable by unintentionally affecting the steering due to your weight shifts. As mentioned previously the gyroscopic effect of the turning wheels and the engine’s spinning mass want to keep the bike moving in a straight line. In most tank slappers the bike will settle down and go straight once the rider has bailed off or been thrown off. In an amazing video Loco posted you can see the bike stabilize after he is off the seat. Even with the rider hanging on and dragging along side the bike, the bike wants to go straight. Scary to watch but an amazing recovery!
Hanging off was actually ridiculed when Kenny Roberts brought the technique from his flat track experience to road racing in the mid to later 70’s. After he won 6 of 7 Formula One races in ’77 no one was laughing at him and his style. When the speed you will go through a corner at requires more lean angle than tire grip can support hanging off comes into play. By hanging off your body acts like an outrigger placing weight low and off to the side of the machine’s center of gravity. By having counteractive weight further inside the turn you can carry more speed with less required lean angle. Less lean angle will keep more of the tire in contact with the surface of the road. Hanging off is an advanced technique and takes time and practice to get it right. Superhawk22 has a nice avatar showing good form.
Trail braking though useful in some cases (at advanced levels) can get you in trouble if you learn to rely on it. If you are having to apply the brakes once your in the turn (not trail braking) you may have miss judged you entry speed or did not realize it was a decreasing radius turn. A motto I try to follow is “slower in faster out”. Late braking and rushing the entry doesn’t mean anything if you have to upset the chassis, slow down, or run wide to get through the turn. Besides isn’t it more fun to come out of the corner “nose in the air”. I can't find the link to Loco's video but I hope these links are interesting. There are a lot of thoughts on the "right" way to do things.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php
http://www.ridemyown.com/articles/ne..._corners.shtml
http://www.classrides.com/feedbk5.html
http://www.transworldmotocross.com/m...038317,00.html
03-22-2006, 11:28 PM
#21
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03-22-2006, 11:32 PM
#22
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03-23-2006, 11:23 AM
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One more of my riding observations and part of the reason why I started this thread is the difference between the VTR and a buddies' F4i. I'm not sure how to explain the feeling in a turn, but I'll do my best.
The F4i turns almost intuitively. It feels light and nimble and seems to require very little input from the rider. With my hands barely on the bars I feel very little movement of the bars as I lean it into a corner.
With the VTR I have a tendency to want to fight the steering. If I basically take my hands off the bars and let the bars do what they want, they seem to move (turn into the corner) a lot more than the F4i bars.
I'm not sure if that really explains it, but basically it feels to me like the VTR wants (or maybe requires) more countersteering effort than the F4i. The same friend used to own a 250 Ninja that had a steering feel more like the VTR, so I'm thinking it's not necessarily a weight issue. Is this just a geometry issue? I've taken to letting the front end do it's own thing and just putting in a little effort to keep it stable. Does that sound about right, or should I be putting in more effort to countersteer?
BTW, this is something I've noticed that doesn't really change much with and without a passenger.
The F4i turns almost intuitively. It feels light and nimble and seems to require very little input from the rider. With my hands barely on the bars I feel very little movement of the bars as I lean it into a corner.
With the VTR I have a tendency to want to fight the steering. If I basically take my hands off the bars and let the bars do what they want, they seem to move (turn into the corner) a lot more than the F4i bars.
I'm not sure if that really explains it, but basically it feels to me like the VTR wants (or maybe requires) more countersteering effort than the F4i. The same friend used to own a 250 Ninja that had a steering feel more like the VTR, so I'm thinking it's not necessarily a weight issue. Is this just a geometry issue? I've taken to letting the front end do it's own thing and just putting in a little effort to keep it stable. Does that sound about right, or should I be putting in more effort to countersteer?
BTW, this is something I've noticed that doesn't really change much with and without a passenger.
03-23-2006, 11:42 AM
#25
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MotoGP
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gainesville FLA.
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You're not imagining things. The superhawk was built as a sport tourer leaning more to sport but the streeing was made to be more on the stable side than the quick side. The cbr is more of a pure sport bike so it was made to steer quicker with less concern for stability. There are ways to make the Hawk quicker steering, one way is to raise the forks higher in the triples but that will make you lose some ground clearence. You are a taller person so the second way shouldn't be an issue, you can shim the rear shock, (I think 5-8mm or so) or get a specialty shock mount that lets you adjust ride height. If you make the rear taller it puts the weight on the front and makes it easier to turn. As far as pressure on the bars, the more muscle you put into it the less you'll "feel" what the front end is feeding back to you. If you've got a full wallet you could always replace the shock with an adjustable aftermarket. If you're feeling real adventurous you can also do a front end swap, there's a wealth of knowledge on the subject on here. I've gone both of these roots so if interested I'll give you any info you need.
03-23-2006, 12:04 PM
#26
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I've already got one of those tricky Ohlins shocks with the remote preload adjuster. The forks have been resprung and valved with race tech gold valves. I don't think the previous owner ever really set it up for himself. On dirtbikes that's one of the first things I would do, but I figured I'd ride this one first. I'll try messing with some of the settings (i.e. pull out the tape measure and paper/pencil/calculator) and see what I can figure out.
The forks have been resprung and valved with race tech gold valves. I don't think the previous owner ever really set it up for himself. On dirtbikes that's one of the first things I would do, but I figured I'd ride this one first. I'll try messing with some of the settings (i.e. pull out the tape measure and paper/pencil/calculator) and see what I can figure out.
03-23-2006, 04:49 PM
#28
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Re: Riding Techniques
OMG!!!!!!!!! I fell for it again!!!
I used up all my acid the last time that was posted.
Those are not the tan buns I'm used to seeing.
Now I need to make a speacial trip to Waikiki today.......................
Please, please don't be raining!
Yardstick,
When you say your using more counter steer with the VTR do you mean it requires more effort to start the bike turning in or do you mean the bike is falling in so fast you think it will go down if you do not counteract the lean by giving forward pressure on the hand grip opposite the side your turning to. I have heard with more triangular tires the hawk feels like it will fall the deck when it leans in.
Does your current set up such as height of the fork tubes in the triple clamp and rear shock height match the stock setup specs?
Some folks have placed a spacer in between the top of the shock and the frame to raise the back of the bike and put more weight on the front end.
I used up all my acid the last time that was posted.
Those are not the tan buns I'm used to seeing.
Now I need to make a speacial trip to Waikiki today.......................
Please, please don't be raining!
Yardstick,
When you say your using more counter steer with the VTR do you mean it requires more effort to start the bike turning in or do you mean the bike is falling in so fast you think it will go down if you do not counteract the lean by giving forward pressure on the hand grip opposite the side your turning to. I have heard with more triangular tires the hawk feels like it will fall the deck when it leans in.
Does your current set up such as height of the fork tubes in the triple clamp and rear shock height match the stock setup specs?
Some folks have placed a spacer in between the top of the shock and the frame to raise the back of the bike and put more weight on the front end.
03-24-2006, 09:28 AM
#29
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It's a really strange feel and like I said, I'm not sure how to describe it. If I'm taking a turn and leaning the bike in without inputting control to the grips at all (like riding a bicycle with no hands kind of turning) the steering seems like it moves a LOT. I think it's the slower speed turns that make it really stand out, like neighborhood speed. That's mainly where I'm not sure if I should be letting the bars turn and just have my hands there for stability or if I should countersteer. Countersteering to any great degree in this kind of situation would actually cause more lean angle if I'm thinking about this right.
I haven't gone through the bike to figure out what the stock specs would be for fork height and all that yet. Just for the heck of it I dialed in a click worth of preload on the adjuster last night before I rode. I didn't think I would really notice it, but psychological or not it seemed to do something good.
I haven't gone through the bike to figure out what the stock specs would be for fork height and all that yet. Just for the heck of it I dialed in a click worth of preload on the adjuster last night before I rode. I didn't think I would really notice it, but psychological or not it seemed to do something good.
03-24-2006, 03:28 PM
#30
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Posts: 402
Re: Riding Techniques
Yardstick,
I get what you’re saying now.
When I first rode the SHawks I noticed that I was able to change lanes with not much more effort than flexing my ankle to weight the peg on the side I wanted to go to.
I don't normally "body steer" as I find more control and a quicker turn in comes when I counter steer using the bars. On the SHawk if you use the bars to counter steer the "Falling" in feels more under control and less like the bike is just flopping over. So I think what you are experiencing may just be the nature of our beloved SHwak.
I would still check to see if the back has been raised, the shock is taller than stock, or perhaps the top of the fork tubes are sitting higher than stock in the triple clamp (dropping the front end). Any of these things will make the steering even quicker. A more triangular vice a rounded tire profile will make the bike feel more like it is falling over not smoothly leaning in to the turn?
Any one else??? Ideas???
My SHawk experience is still low compared to many of you out there.
I get what you’re saying now.
When I first rode the SHawks I noticed that I was able to change lanes with not much more effort than flexing my ankle to weight the peg on the side I wanted to go to.
I don't normally "body steer" as I find more control and a quicker turn in comes when I counter steer using the bars. On the SHawk if you use the bars to counter steer the "Falling" in feels more under control and less like the bike is just flopping over. So I think what you are experiencing may just be the nature of our beloved SHwak.
I would still check to see if the back has been raised, the shock is taller than stock, or perhaps the top of the fork tubes are sitting higher than stock in the triple clamp (dropping the front end). Any of these things will make the steering even quicker. A more triangular vice a rounded tire profile will make the bike feel more like it is falling over not smoothly leaning in to the turn?
Any one else??? Ideas???
My SHawk experience is still low compared to many of you out there.
