Knowing the limits of the Superhawk
07-19-2005, 07:12 AM
#31
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Re: Knowing the limits of the Superhawk
These are expensive, but they are the whole racing rearset.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Coerc...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Coerc...QQcmdZViewItem
07-19-2005, 07:22 AM
#32
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Re: Knowing the limits of the Superhawk
I had been looking at those...
The quality looks great and the price is better than Harris or Gilles... the "rub" is that they're not adjustable... it's a more aggressive position than stock, but they are fixed in that one position.
The quality looks great and the price is better than Harris or Gilles... the "rub" is that they're not adjustable... it's a more aggressive position than stock, but they are fixed in that one position.
07-27-2005, 02:19 PM
#34
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Re: Knowing the limits of the Superhawk
I agree with everything above but...To those of you who have never locked the front tire -Shame on you! Only after locking the front tire will you understand how hard you CAN brake. Just before you crash is not the time to determine what the maximum braking force is.
I like to do at least one panic stop on every ride. It has become a reflex and has saved my ***. Do it in the rain too. Seriously.
Start by going 20mph (in a parking lot) then quickly but SMOOTHLY apply front brake. Keep your head up and eyes forward (your head will want to look down) and hold the tank (HARD!) with your knees/legs. Don't try to support all your weight with your shoulders and wrists. Doing so will make it much more difficult to correct for any wandering. Keep doing this until you are just starting to skid as you stop. You will be amazed with how much more brake is there than you thought. Don't waste too much time trying to use the back brake. When you do this correctly, the rear tire will be skipping across the ground anyway.
After you master this, pick up the speed. From 60 you should be able to quickly get the front tire to make some noise (indicating you are on the verge of lockup) and keep it in a straight line. It's not too hard, but harder than it sounds.
You should never ride faster than you have successfully panic braked from. So..If you like to zip around at 140mph, you should certainly have panic stopped from that speed. It will make you a better rider! Have fun!
I like to do at least one panic stop on every ride. It has become a reflex and has saved my ***. Do it in the rain too. Seriously.
Start by going 20mph (in a parking lot) then quickly but SMOOTHLY apply front brake. Keep your head up and eyes forward (your head will want to look down) and hold the tank (HARD!) with your knees/legs. Don't try to support all your weight with your shoulders and wrists. Doing so will make it much more difficult to correct for any wandering. Keep doing this until you are just starting to skid as you stop. You will be amazed with how much more brake is there than you thought. Don't waste too much time trying to use the back brake. When you do this correctly, the rear tire will be skipping across the ground anyway.
After you master this, pick up the speed. From 60 you should be able to quickly get the front tire to make some noise (indicating you are on the verge of lockup) and keep it in a straight line. It's not too hard, but harder than it sounds.
You should never ride faster than you have successfully panic braked from. So..If you like to zip around at 140mph, you should certainly have panic stopped from that speed. It will make you a better rider! Have fun!
07-27-2005, 05:08 PM
#35
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I've done most of my limit braking on a track. When I went to bigger brakes, I was clamping in the binders like I had before and the back wheel was lifting and squirming around. I felt like I was backing it in like Nicky Hayden. I have since stopped overbraking so much.
I had a set of those Dennis Kirk pegs on my old stock rearsets. I liked them.
I had a set of those Dennis Kirk pegs on my old stock rearsets. I liked them.
07-27-2005, 05:23 PM
#36
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Just to clarify. I am not suggesting to do this while going deep into a hairpin. Do it in a parking lot first then on a quiet back road in the country somewhere, while going straight. These skills are not for use during normal riding. They are to make riders prepared for the unexpected.
Statistically, most accidents can be avoided...If the rider had better emergency training. Locking a front tire under panic situations is common. Especially in a corner. Practicing emergency stops will avoid this.
Statistically, most accidents can be avoided...If the rider had better emergency training. Locking a front tire under panic situations is common. Especially in a corner. Practicing emergency stops will avoid this.
07-27-2005, 05:27 PM
#37
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More back brake mythology. If you want to be a good rider, learn how to properly modulate both brakes. And learn how to ride a back tire skid.
Even a skidding tire provides more braking than a rolling tire. Not using the back brake (and particularly not knowing how) is not good advice, particularly for a road rider.
Even a skidding tire provides more braking than a rolling tire. Not using the back brake (and particularly not knowing how) is not good advice, particularly for a road rider.
07-28-2005, 04:00 AM
#38
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And what does a locked back brake do under these circumstances? It "skips." Which is what I said. What I mean to imply is that the front is doing 90% of the work and so that is the one to focus on.
ALso, a skidding tire does produce more friction than a rolling one, I agree. Although a skidding tire will offer less stability. If you measure the stopping distance using just the front tire and then locking the back also, the difference is negligable. Properly modulating the back brake however (without locking it) will help stability however.
ALso, a skidding tire does produce more friction than a rolling one, I agree. Although a skidding tire will offer less stability. If you measure the stopping distance using just the front tire and then locking the back also, the difference is negligable. Properly modulating the back brake however (without locking it) will help stability however.
07-28-2005, 06:23 AM
#39
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Well I'm glad you clarified. But -- as one more point of clarification -- there is no reason to assume that a skidding back tire will bounce. That's a suspension problem. And even at low speeds, deriving 15% of your braking from a skid is a better option than giving up 25% (or more.) The difference at even 25 mph is feet.
Lots of trackday operators preach the mantra of not using the back brake. But that's because lots of trackday riders can't ride a skid or will panic, release, and highside, not because there are not plenty of situations in which to use it.
Clearly, the best option is to learn to modulate it correctly. Obviously, you may not want to use it all the time, but you certainly do not want to use it none of the time.
Lots of trackday operators preach the mantra of not using the back brake. But that's because lots of trackday riders can't ride a skid or will panic, release, and highside, not because there are not plenty of situations in which to use it.
Clearly, the best option is to learn to modulate it correctly. Obviously, you may not want to use it all the time, but you certainly do not want to use it none of the time.
07-28-2005, 06:30 AM
#40
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Re: Knowing the limits of the Superhawk
NOT meaning to sound like a know-it-all, and not wanting to drift too far off the topic of the thread, but one thing we all need to remember:
When the back wheel locks up, the gyroscopic stabilizing effect offered by its rotatiing mass, is lost. The gyroscopic effect helps stabilize the bike and keep it vertical and tracking straight.
(Ever see a race bike keep going straight after the rider fell off?)
With the loss of the stabilization offered by the gyro effect, the rear end will become pretty much dead weight you are forced to try and direct with the front end.
A dicey proposition!
Regardless of what we ride on the street, braking is SOOO important. I guess the key thing is to UNDERSTAND what is happening. The harder you are forced to brake, the less effective the rear brake becomes. Applying maximum front brake which will still allow some baraking and control with the rear is (IMO) the best option.
However, I'd imagine the decreased stopping distance offered by the ability to apply some minor rear brake, is, in the final analysis, not a great deal. But, it just might matter one day, and then it would be a big deal.
I think many new riders do not really understand how to use the front brake and that is where they get into trouble.
I had a near uh-oh a few months back on The Dragon. I thought I knew which turn I was in, but I was wrong (brain fart). I was mentally and physically preapred for one good left handed knee drager, but that wasn't the turn I was entering. I was forced to brake (used both front and rear) in the turn, to avoid forging my own road through the bushes. It was uncomfortable, but I am FIRMLY convinced lots of experience and UNDERSTANDING the forces involved helped save my butt.
I do believe a newbie would likely have uprighted the bike and skidded off the road.
Hey, I ain't Nickey Haden, but I had to try and fix my error on the fly )so to speak)
I have watched guys get into a similar situation and the end result is, quite often, a locked rear tire, and a black skid mark leading off the road.
A panic stop that might could have been avoided.
Toady's bikes, brakes and tires are FAR more capable than most give them credit for (or trust them for). I believe that most often, the bike is capable but the rider isn't, or he.she doesn't trust the equipment.
In my case, it was trust my equipment, or go off the road.
Thanks for listening.
Brian
When the back wheel locks up, the gyroscopic stabilizing effect offered by its rotatiing mass, is lost. The gyroscopic effect helps stabilize the bike and keep it vertical and tracking straight.
(Ever see a race bike keep going straight after the rider fell off?)
With the loss of the stabilization offered by the gyro effect, the rear end will become pretty much dead weight you are forced to try and direct with the front end.
A dicey proposition!
Regardless of what we ride on the street, braking is SOOO important. I guess the key thing is to UNDERSTAND what is happening. The harder you are forced to brake, the less effective the rear brake becomes. Applying maximum front brake which will still allow some baraking and control with the rear is (IMO) the best option.
However, I'd imagine the decreased stopping distance offered by the ability to apply some minor rear brake, is, in the final analysis, not a great deal. But, it just might matter one day, and then it would be a big deal.
I think many new riders do not really understand how to use the front brake and that is where they get into trouble.
I had a near uh-oh a few months back on The Dragon. I thought I knew which turn I was in, but I was wrong (brain fart). I was mentally and physically preapred for one good left handed knee drager, but that wasn't the turn I was entering. I was forced to brake (used both front and rear) in the turn, to avoid forging my own road through the bushes. It was uncomfortable, but I am FIRMLY convinced lots of experience and UNDERSTANDING the forces involved helped save my butt.
I do believe a newbie would likely have uprighted the bike and skidded off the road.
Hey, I ain't Nickey Haden, but I had to try and fix my error on the fly )so to speak)
I have watched guys get into a similar situation and the end result is, quite often, a locked rear tire, and a black skid mark leading off the road.
A panic stop that might could have been avoided.
Toady's bikes, brakes and tires are FAR more capable than most give them credit for (or trust them for). I believe that most often, the bike is capable but the rider isn't, or he.she doesn't trust the equipment.
In my case, it was trust my equipment, or go off the road.
Thanks for listening.
Brian
07-28-2005, 06:45 AM
#41
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yes jschmidt, I absolutely agree. The roads I ride on are mildly uneven a lot of the time and I should take that into account when I make generalizations. I find that under maximum brake, the rear will sort of bounce across the peaks in the road. Only comming 1/8" up though.
Is this indicative of a suspension problem? If so what do you recommend adjusting? I weigh just 155lbs so I have softened the compression damping and lowered preload on my hawk. Is this causing the bounce I experience or is it just the road?
Just to wrap it up, it is definately advisable to modulate the rear as well as the front. I was initially concerned that some of us had not taken the time to determine where the front brake limit is. I consider locking the front tire (under controlled practice) a basic skill that every rider should do so they know how to avoid locking the tire when it counts. Obviously, when practicing, if the front tire locks and you are still moving, ease up on the lever!
Is this indicative of a suspension problem? If so what do you recommend adjusting? I weigh just 155lbs so I have softened the compression damping and lowered preload on my hawk. Is this causing the bounce I experience or is it just the road?
Just to wrap it up, it is definately advisable to modulate the rear as well as the front. I was initially concerned that some of us had not taken the time to determine where the front brake limit is. I consider locking the front tire (under controlled practice) a basic skill that every rider should do so they know how to avoid locking the tire when it counts. Obviously, when practicing, if the front tire locks and you are still moving, ease up on the lever!
07-28-2005, 07:47 AM
#42
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The tough thing about rear brake modulation is it's inverse to the front brake.
The harder you brake on the front, the less you can brake on the rear.
When I'm spliting lanes on Los Angeles fwys with almost stopped traffic, then using both brakes has saved me in the past and that's why I cover it when I split lanes.
Other times on a canyon road I might be braking so hard that I feel modulating the front brake requires my full attention and the rear brake is more likely to get me in trouble than help me, (untill weight transfer has lessened) then I might reach for the rear again.
I think it all depends on how much weight transfer your generating at the time that determines if the rear brake will be effective.
~Jeffers
The harder you brake on the front, the less you can brake on the rear.
When I'm spliting lanes on Los Angeles fwys with almost stopped traffic, then using both brakes has saved me in the past and that's why I cover it when I split lanes.
Other times on a canyon road I might be braking so hard that I feel modulating the front brake requires my full attention and the rear brake is more likely to get me in trouble than help me, (untill weight transfer has lessened) then I might reach for the rear again.
I think it all depends on how much weight transfer your generating at the time that determines if the rear brake will be effective.
~Jeffers
07-28-2005, 08:11 AM
#43
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I didn't mean to imply that practicing panic braking is not a good idea, it is a very good idea. Although, my feeing is that trying to practice skidding the front tire is a good way to end up on your head.
Two of you have said that a skidding tire generates more friction force than a rolling true. That is completely false and you need to go back to physics class. A skidding tire produces far less friction.
Think about this:
What happens in a lowside crash? The front tire starts to slip and the bike goes down immediately. If sliding produced more friction, that wouldn't happen.
Two of you have said that a skidding tire generates more friction force than a rolling true. That is completely false and you need to go back to physics class. A skidding tire produces far less friction.
Think about this:
What happens in a lowside crash? The front tire starts to slip and the bike goes down immediately. If sliding produced more friction, that wouldn't happen.
07-28-2005, 08:44 AM
#44
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I think that when we say "rolling" we mean "not skidding but the brake is applied"
Obviously a skidding tire is less effective than if you are brakeing to the point just before skidding. Since uK is less than uS.
In other words, it takes more force to start a skid than to continue skidding. In this case force is the force in the negative x direction with respect to displacement.
Obviously a skidding tire is less effective than if you are brakeing to the point just before skidding. Since uK is less than uS.
In other words, it takes more force to start a skid than to continue skidding. In this case force is the force in the negative x direction with respect to displacement.
07-28-2005, 09:15 AM
#45
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I mean that a skidding tire is applying more braking force than a tire with unused braking (a rolling tire.) This is correct. Obviously braking (prior to skid threshold) is better than skidding.
NYSuperhawk: Your rebound damping may be too stiff.
NYSuperhawk: Your rebound damping may be too stiff.
07-28-2005, 11:10 AM
#46
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Given proper weight transfer on to the front wheel, the limit of braking is the bike pivoting forward over the contact patch, as in the rear wheel losing contact.
If the front tire is skidding, you are applying the brake too quickly and headed for trouble. People need to practice not panic braking!
If the front tire is skidding, you are applying the brake too quickly and headed for trouble. People need to practice not panic braking!
07-31-2005, 09:24 PM
#48
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Dragging pegs on the Superhawk is a fairly easy, and pretty alarming thing to have happen. If you aren't careful it *will* pivot the rear tire off the ground and whoopsie there you go down the road. Yes I know from experience. (bout 4 or 5 years ago now??)
After months of dragging my footpegs around corners it finally bit me, and I decided it was time to race. Good decision.
Keep your eyes open for that... specially if you start riding fairly 'spirited'.
Regarding BRAKING: The rear brake is useful to keep your bike from rolling at a stoplight. Bout it. Once you get into serious braking territory.. like a car pulled out in front of you, or you are diving into Turn 3, the rear brake is a liability. A big one. A skidding rear tire causes far more problems than a free-rolling one. I'd recommend working on learning just how much you can bind up the front, which is far more than you think.
After months of dragging my footpegs around corners it finally bit me, and I decided it was time to race. Good decision.
Keep your eyes open for that... specially if you start riding fairly 'spirited'.
Regarding BRAKING: The rear brake is useful to keep your bike from rolling at a stoplight. Bout it. Once you get into serious braking territory.. like a car pulled out in front of you, or you are diving into Turn 3, the rear brake is a liability. A big one. A skidding rear tire causes far more problems than a free-rolling one. I'd recommend working on learning just how much you can bind up the front, which is far more than you think.
08-01-2005, 05:14 AM
#49
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I actually use the rear brake for trail braking into corners when on the track. Trail braking is better done with the rear then the front. Trail braking with the front makes it harder to set the suspension for the turn.
08-01-2005, 07:21 AM
#50
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Re: Knowing the limits of the Superhawk
cyder77: I thought that the purpose of trail braking was to load the front tire when entering a turn a little 'hot'. Then as you load the tire by turning, slowly ease off the front brake. Is this right? Is it really better to use the rear? I've never tried but I have noticed that the rear doesn't pitch the bike as bad when I use it instead of the front when braking in a straight line.
rc996:
I do believe this is an issue of semantics. 'Panic' braking as used above (not by you) is probably a misnomer. I agree that people should practice not immediately locking the front tire. Is it not important to know how much squeeze = tire lock? I think it is. Learning where this happens in relation to lever pull is what I define 'panic braking'. Should have probably called it emergency braking.
-----
I was breaking in a new rear tire this weekend in a large parking lot and smacked the peg feeler into the ground. The first time it happened was alarming. But after grinding the feelers on both sides to the point where they are now angled and sharp, when they touch down it is very smooth and non-alarming so long as I don't SLAM them into the ground. Made some cool night videos too :P
One thing I noticed though is that my front tire will push like idiot if I go too fast. It is a D204 (stock I think). I have had this happen on the street as well and find it pretty damn annoying! If I go to a better tire, will this go away? Is the D204 considered a hard tire?
rc996:
If the front tire is skidding, you are applying the brake too quickly and headed for trouble. People need to practice not panic braking!
-----
I was breaking in a new rear tire this weekend in a large parking lot and smacked the peg feeler into the ground. The first time it happened was alarming. But after grinding the feelers on both sides to the point where they are now angled and sharp, when they touch down it is very smooth and non-alarming so long as I don't SLAM them into the ground. Made some cool night videos too :P
One thing I noticed though is that my front tire will push like idiot if I go too fast. It is a D204 (stock I think). I have had this happen on the street as well and find it pretty damn annoying! If I go to a better tire, will this go away? Is the D204 considered a hard tire?
08-01-2005, 07:39 AM
#51
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Re: Knowing the limits of the Superhawk
There is an easy fix for the pegs, A) take the "feelers" off. B) buy aftermarket pegs or C) rear sets. and no you should not lock up the front brake. When you lock the brake and make the tire skid you aren't getting the stoping power, (that's why they made ABS.) The only time I lock my brakes, it's the rear so I can manuver around something. Because I rode MX for so many years there are things you learn on the dirt that in a panic situation become second nature to avoid contact. I don't know how many times I've managed to slide past some a##hole that has put their nose in front of me!!!
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