Identify this motorcycle marque
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RUNLEVELZERO #99
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From: Skokie
Getting warm. More hints: It is a 246cc single but not a twin...and has on the body side covers 3 initials that are the same as a relatively well known German marque but is not one...but I say too much!
Responses interspersed in red below...
Very warm but NOT a JAWA but has some of the tech under license
don't you though...
Responses interspersed in red below...
It does really look like a JAWA though http://physiology.usouthal.edu/resto...homason354.jpg
OK, what it's not:
1. Any of the DKW RT 125 knock-offs, such as BSA Bantam etc;
NOT a DKW but has some of the tech under license
3. Any of the CZ/JAWA or Easterns along those lines, because there are separate kickstart and gear levers on concentric shafts, by the looks.
R U sure about that? (but remember not a CZ or JAWA)
4. It has a distinctly Germanic/Eastern European look to me.
Yes but you just contradicted yourself from #3
5. but it could be one of those from the 1960s (ie a decade later than I have been thinking so far).
Late 50's ~ early 60's vintage...
(wish I could work out the logo on the primary drive cover).
1. Any of the DKW RT 125 knock-offs, such as BSA Bantam etc;
NOT a DKW but has some of the tech under license
3. Any of the CZ/JAWA or Easterns along those lines, because there are separate kickstart and gear levers on concentric shafts, by the looks.
R U sure about that? (but remember not a CZ or JAWA)
4. It has a distinctly Germanic/Eastern European look to me.
Yes but you just contradicted yourself from #3
5. but it could be one of those from the 1960s (ie a decade later than I have been thinking so far).
Late 50's ~ early 60's vintage...
(wish I could work out the logo on the primary drive cover).
Last edited by skokievtr; Aug 19, 2008 at 03:52 PM.
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"Along those lines" ie a gear and kickstart lever that is the one lever...but I would be thinking Eastern Bloc, and it seems to me from your comments Eastern Bloc that got some war reparations design rights.
Now, was Simson in the mix with that stuff?
I am determined not to just go and look it up on the net or the library.
Ah: AVO.
Now, was Simson in the mix with that stuff?
I am determined not to just go and look it up on the net or the library.
Ah: AVO.
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RUNLEVELZERO #99
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From: Skokie
that was elimminated above!
nope
I doubt looking it up would help because very few photos exist of the marque but another hint, it is listed in an encyclopedia edited by Erwin Tragatsch
nope
"Along those lines" ie a gear and kickstart lever that is the one lever...but I would be thinking Eastern Bloc, and it seems to me from your comments Eastern Bloc that got some war reparations design rights.
Now, was Simson in the mix with that stuff?
I am determined not to just go and look it up on the net or the library.
Ah: AVO.
Now, was Simson in the mix with that stuff?
I am determined not to just go and look it up on the net or the library.
Ah: AVO.
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Dot is English (folklore has it that the name means "Devoid of Trouble"; I know this is only folklore, because my uncle had one. Bloody garbage Villiers motor.).
The NAITs (Not Acknowledged In Tragatsch) are few and far between, but I'm still hanging in there with my refusal to go to the library and trawl through Tragatsch.
Ummmmm....can I have an extension of time? The "3 initials of a German brand" bit has me intrigued. The only shared initials German and elsewhere that I am aware of are companies that got divided East/West after WWII. NSU sort of did, but not quite; a lot of its tooling went East and most of the intellectual property went West (though not "went west", if you see what I mean). And NSU has already been suggested and rejected; besides which I doubt that they made something like this when they were also making the Max.
The NAITs (Not Acknowledged In Tragatsch) are few and far between, but I'm still hanging in there with my refusal to go to the library and trawl through Tragatsch.
Ummmmm....can I have an extension of time? The "3 initials of a German brand" bit has me intrigued. The only shared initials German and elsewhere that I am aware of are companies that got divided East/West after WWII. NSU sort of did, but not quite; a lot of its tooling went East and most of the intellectual property went West (though not "went west", if you see what I mean). And NSU has already been suggested and rejected; besides which I doubt that they made something like this when they were also making the Max.
Last edited by PJay; Aug 19, 2008 at 07:28 PM.
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Very warm but NOT a JAWA but has some of the tech under license
And then you could be engaging in a major tit-tug, so it could be from a lot further east - one of the Chiang Jiang JAWAs made under licence in China, or one of the Indian ones also made under licence in the 60s.
OK, OK, I'm giving up.
And then you could be engaging in a major tit-tug, so it could be from a lot further east - one of the Chiang Jiang JAWAs made under licence in China, or one of the Indian ones also made under licence in the 60s.
OK, OK, I'm giving up.
Last edited by PJay; Aug 19, 2008 at 10:30 PM.
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Very warm but NOT a JAWA but has some of the tech under license
And then you could be engaging in a major tit-tug, so it could be from a lot further east - one of the Chiang Jiang JAWAs made under licence in China, or one of the Indian ones also made under licence in the 60s.
OK, OK, I'm giving up.
And then you could be engaging in a major tit-tug, so it could be from a lot further east - one of the Chiang Jiang JAWAs made under licence in China, or one of the Indian ones also made under licence in the 60s.
OK, OK, I'm giving up.
Later JAWA is called "very warm". Does that qualify as tit-tug? Could be IZH, and the shift lever/kick starter looks IZH, but most all of those were 350 cc. Might be one of the MANY license built JAWA, or copied in whole or part JAWA by what ever name. Whatever badge it has, I still say it's a JAWA.
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I'll take a stab at the French co. "Derny" but what model I don't know.
Although at first glance it's a dead ringer for a Triumph Twenty One... but they had different cylinder head covers, not machined like that and I have seen them in that baby blue color and with similar looking front forks...
Another little French manufacturer comes to mind, Gnome et Rhone?
Although at first glance it's a dead ringer for a Triumph Twenty One... but they had different cylinder head covers, not machined like that and I have seen them in that baby blue color and with similar looking front forks...
Another little French manufacturer comes to mind, Gnome et Rhone?
Last edited by supermarto; Aug 20, 2008 at 11:21 AM.
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RUNLEVELZERO #99
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From: Skokie
No Winner but but some Whinners
No one had the right answer, so see attached and don't cry in your beer. The make is not a copy or even made under license from JAWA or DKW. It is an indigenous design and this example was made in 1962 by a now departed Bulgarian manufacturer.
BTW, the 3 intitials on the body side cover "BMW" for Balken Motor Works!
BTW, the 3 intitials on the body side cover "BMW" for Balken Motor Works!
Last edited by skokievtr; Aug 20, 2008 at 11:55 AM.
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YOU didn't SPELL it right, So THERE!
No one had the right answer, so see attached and don't cry in your beer. The make is not a copy or even made under license from JAWA or DKW. It is an indigenous design and this example was made in 1962 by a now departed Bulgarian manufacturer.
BTW, the 3 intitials on the body side cover "BMW" for Balken Motor Works!
BTW, the 3 intitials on the body side cover "BMW" for Balken Motor Works!
What did Bulgarian ever do to you, lol?!
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RUNLEVELZERO #99
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From: Skokie
So sorry but the forum does not have a spell check function. 
Actually, I admire the Bulgarians. In WW2 Bulgaria was occupied by the ***** but their king and the general population resisted as much as possible the German's maniacal efforts to put Bulgarian jews, gypsies, gays, etc in death camps. Instead, the Bulgarians managed to protect many jews by putting them in moving work details and fewer Bulgarian jews were killed percentage-wise than any other country in Europe. Bulgaria was also always one of the most free-wheeling under the Soviets and today are still very forward thinking, modern and fun-loving.
Actually, I admire the Bulgarians. In WW2 Bulgaria was occupied by the ***** but their king and the general population resisted as much as possible the German's maniacal efforts to put Bulgarian jews, gypsies, gays, etc in death camps. Instead, the Bulgarians managed to protect many jews by putting them in moving work details and fewer Bulgarian jews were killed percentage-wise than any other country in Europe. Bulgaria was also always one of the most free-wheeling under the Soviets and today are still very forward thinking, modern and fun-loving.
Last edited by skokievtr; Aug 20, 2008 at 03:34 PM.
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Skokie, thank you for a highly intriguing puzzle. I would never have got this marque without going to Tragatsch, never having heard of it before.
The Far Eastern JAWA copies were all twin-ports, as far as I am aware, so I thought that I was probably getting colder with those guesses.
We got very few unusual marques imported into NZ in the post-WWII years, being such a small country. Even private folks were wary of bring in things that would have the nearest spares 12,000 miles away. Times change: these days, we probably get more oddball bikes than most places, because we're a destination for manufacturers' leftovers.
I'm looking forward to more of these brain-teasers.
[A "tit-tug" is an advance on a leg-pull - "You're pulling my tit". (As in "Your VTR can do WHAAAATTTT????")]
The Far Eastern JAWA copies were all twin-ports, as far as I am aware, so I thought that I was probably getting colder with those guesses.
We got very few unusual marques imported into NZ in the post-WWII years, being such a small country. Even private folks were wary of bring in things that would have the nearest spares 12,000 miles away. Times change: these days, we probably get more oddball bikes than most places, because we're a destination for manufacturers' leftovers.
I'm looking forward to more of these brain-teasers.
[A "tit-tug" is an advance on a leg-pull - "You're pulling my tit". (As in "Your VTR can do WHAAAATTTT????")]
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So sorry but the forum does not have a spell check function.
Actually, I admire the Bulgarians. In WW2 Bulgaria was occupied by the ***** but their king and the general population resisted as much as possible the German's maniacal efforts to put Bulgarian jews, gypsies, gays, etc in death camps. Instead, the Bulgarians managed to protect many jews by putting them in moving work details and fewer Bulgarian jews were killed percentage-wise than any other country in Europe. Bulgaria was also always one of the most free-wheeling under the Soviets and today are still very forward thinking, modern and fun-loving.
Actually, I admire the Bulgarians. In WW2 Bulgaria was occupied by the ***** but their king and the general population resisted as much as possible the German's maniacal efforts to put Bulgarian jews, gypsies, gays, etc in death camps. Instead, the Bulgarians managed to protect many jews by putting them in moving work details and fewer Bulgarian jews were killed percentage-wise than any other country in Europe. Bulgaria was also always one of the most free-wheeling under the Soviets and today are still very forward thinking, modern and fun-loving.
All I know is I'm glad the Jews have Israel... think about the Middle East without that Island of sanity...and the IDF babes are HAWT!
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skokie;
Where did you find the info on this obscure little bike? Even after you telling us what it is, I can find next to nothing about it.
Wiki mentions the company in Bulgaria producing bikes from 1958-1975, but no links or other info.
The only other thing I could find was this;
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/galle...Balkan_250.htm
Csepel Balkan 250cc
A guy in Milwaukee who thinks his "Balkan" was manufactured by the Hungarian Csepel company.
As for the design being indigenous, I respectfully have my doubts. Most of the post war ComBloc two strokes (IZH, Csepel, this Balkan etc.) look like JAWA knock offs to me.
WWII, Bulgaria and Jews.
This is an interesting subject.
Most of the nations which resisted, were conquered and occupied by ***** were, except for the actions of individuals who risked their lives, powerless to protect their Jewish citizens.
The Bulgarians, being allies of the Third Reich, retained control of their political and cultural institutions and were able as a nation to resist Hitler's demand that they surrender their Jewish population.
Were it not for the English speaking nations crushing Hitler, he would have gotten more serious about pressing his demands for the deportation of Bulgarian Jews, and you can bet your *** he would have gotten what he wanted.
Yes, the Bulgarians deserve praise for protecting Bulgarian Jews, but that praise is tempered by the realization that they were able to do so because they were allies with the regime which killed six million Jews and tens of millions of non-Jews in other countries.
Where did you find the info on this obscure little bike? Even after you telling us what it is, I can find next to nothing about it.
Wiki mentions the company in Bulgaria producing bikes from 1958-1975, but no links or other info.
The only other thing I could find was this;
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/galle...Balkan_250.htm
Csepel Balkan 250cc
A guy in Milwaukee who thinks his "Balkan" was manufactured by the Hungarian Csepel company.
As for the design being indigenous, I respectfully have my doubts. Most of the post war ComBloc two strokes (IZH, Csepel, this Balkan etc.) look like JAWA knock offs to me.
WWII, Bulgaria and Jews.
This is an interesting subject.
Most of the nations which resisted, were conquered and occupied by ***** were, except for the actions of individuals who risked their lives, powerless to protect their Jewish citizens.
The Bulgarians, being allies of the Third Reich, retained control of their political and cultural institutions and were able as a nation to resist Hitler's demand that they surrender their Jewish population.
Were it not for the English speaking nations crushing Hitler, he would have gotten more serious about pressing his demands for the deportation of Bulgarian Jews, and you can bet your *** he would have gotten what he wanted.
Yes, the Bulgarians deserve praise for protecting Bulgarian Jews, but that praise is tempered by the realization that they were able to do so because they were allies with the regime which killed six million Jews and tens of millions of non-Jews in other countries.
Last edited by RK1; Aug 21, 2008 at 10:31 PM.
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RUNLEVELZERO #99
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From: Skokie
skokie;
Where did you find the info on this obscure little bike? Even after you telling us what it is, I can find next to nothing about it.
from the new owner
Wiki mentions the company in Bulgaria producing bikes from 1958-1975, but no links or other info.
The only other thing I could find was this;
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/galle...Balkan_250.htm
Csepel Balkan 250cc
A guy in Milwaukee who thinks his "Balkan" was manufactured by the Hungarian Csepel company.
old owner was mistaken
As for the design being indigenous, I respectfully have my doubts. Most of the post war ComBloc two strokes (IZH, Csepel, this Balkan etc.) look like JAWA knock offs to me.
thats like saying a late 50's Chevy was made by Ford, the tech was there to mix and match but it was made in Bulgaria
WWII, Bulgaria and Jews.
This is an interesting subject.
a thumbnail summary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...g_World_War_II that gives a glimpse of what your talking about below. Tsar Boris 3 did the best he could for his country though not all the jews in Greek Macedonia and Vardar Macedonia were forwarded to Auschwitz like they say. I saw a very good movie just about this subject told by survivors. All the other eastern european countries, and I mean all including Poland, had collaborators who were more anti-semetic than even the *****. To this day jews are spit on and worse when they visit Auschwvitz. By comparison the Bulgarian government came out smelling like a rose even after being made a soviet block member. They played both sides better than even the French, who had the Vichy regime. Only the Danes were better out of all of europe. The Swiss who were "neutral" profited so much (including manufacturing for the *****) that to this day they are still holding wealth taken from jews and not paying on life insurance policies based on the jewish survivors not having copies of the policies!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...g_World_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers
I know enough to be dangerous, all I can say is "Never Again"
Most of the nations which resisted, were conquered and occupied by ***** were, except for the actions of individuals who risked their lives, powerless to protect their Jewish citizens.
The Bulgarians, being allies of the Third Reich, retained control of their political and cultural institutions and were able as a nation to resist Hitler's demand that they surrender their Jewish population.
Were it not for the English speaking nations crushing Hitler, he would have gotten more serious about pressing his demands for the deportation of Bulgarian Jews, and you can bet your *** he would have gotten what he wanted.
Yes, the Bulgarians deserve praise for protecting Bulgarian Jews, but that praise is tempered by the realization that they were able to do so because they were allies with the regime which killed six million Jews and tens of millions of non-Jews in other countries.
Where did you find the info on this obscure little bike? Even after you telling us what it is, I can find next to nothing about it.
from the new owner
Wiki mentions the company in Bulgaria producing bikes from 1958-1975, but no links or other info.
The only other thing I could find was this;
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/galle...Balkan_250.htm
Csepel Balkan 250cc
A guy in Milwaukee who thinks his "Balkan" was manufactured by the Hungarian Csepel company.
old owner was mistaken
As for the design being indigenous, I respectfully have my doubts. Most of the post war ComBloc two strokes (IZH, Csepel, this Balkan etc.) look like JAWA knock offs to me.
thats like saying a late 50's Chevy was made by Ford, the tech was there to mix and match but it was made in Bulgaria
WWII, Bulgaria and Jews.
This is an interesting subject.
a thumbnail summary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...g_World_War_II that gives a glimpse of what your talking about below. Tsar Boris 3 did the best he could for his country though not all the jews in Greek Macedonia and Vardar Macedonia were forwarded to Auschwitz like they say. I saw a very good movie just about this subject told by survivors. All the other eastern european countries, and I mean all including Poland, had collaborators who were more anti-semetic than even the *****. To this day jews are spit on and worse when they visit Auschwvitz. By comparison the Bulgarian government came out smelling like a rose even after being made a soviet block member. They played both sides better than even the French, who had the Vichy regime. Only the Danes were better out of all of europe. The Swiss who were "neutral" profited so much (including manufacturing for the *****) that to this day they are still holding wealth taken from jews and not paying on life insurance policies based on the jewish survivors not having copies of the policies!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...g_World_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers
I know enough to be dangerous, all I can say is "Never Again"
Most of the nations which resisted, were conquered and occupied by ***** were, except for the actions of individuals who risked their lives, powerless to protect their Jewish citizens.
The Bulgarians, being allies of the Third Reich, retained control of their political and cultural institutions and were able as a nation to resist Hitler's demand that they surrender their Jewish population.
Were it not for the English speaking nations crushing Hitler, he would have gotten more serious about pressing his demands for the deportation of Bulgarian Jews, and you can bet your *** he would have gotten what he wanted.
Yes, the Bulgarians deserve praise for protecting Bulgarian Jews, but that praise is tempered by the realization that they were able to do so because they were allies with the regime which killed six million Jews and tens of millions of non-Jews in other countries.
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skokievtr;
Thanks for the links on WWII.
Never Again is a righteous pledge. Just don't count on governments, The United Nations or "The World" to honor it.
Since that pledge was issued, the world has stood by and watched as a million Tibetans, two million Cambodians and 800,000 Rwandan Tutsis have been slaughtered and it is happening right now to black Christians in the Sudan.
Every innocent person should be dangerous to those who would oppress, enslave or murder him.
That means every individual person should own and be competent with weapons.
I believe that the motorcycle in your pictures is exactly what you said it is and the guy who thought it a Csepel was wrong. I thought it looked a lot like other E. European bikes but wasn't saying it was one. Your Ford/Chevy analogy is good enough so I'll lay off the "Jawa" already.
Are you saying the bike in your pictures is the same individual bike in the Milwaukee guy's picture?
PS What was the special prize we could have won?
Thanks for the links on WWII.
Never Again is a righteous pledge. Just don't count on governments, The United Nations or "The World" to honor it.
Since that pledge was issued, the world has stood by and watched as a million Tibetans, two million Cambodians and 800,000 Rwandan Tutsis have been slaughtered and it is happening right now to black Christians in the Sudan.
Every innocent person should be dangerous to those who would oppress, enslave or murder him.
That means every individual person should own and be competent with weapons.
I believe that the motorcycle in your pictures is exactly what you said it is and the guy who thought it a Csepel was wrong. I thought it looked a lot like other E. European bikes but wasn't saying it was one. Your Ford/Chevy analogy is good enough so I'll lay off the "Jawa" already.
Are you saying the bike in your pictures is the same individual bike in the Milwaukee guy's picture?
PS What was the special prize we could have won?
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RUNLEVELZERO #99
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Do you know where the catch phrase "Never Again" came from? Ever heard of the JDL or Meir David Kahane or what Masada represents, or Dimona?
http://www.jdl.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...ss_destruction
It may sound coarse but every peoples must stand on their own against the wind...
The prize? How about sketches of how to install driving lights on a VTR...
http://www.jdl.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...ss_destruction
It may sound coarse but every peoples must stand on their own against the wind...
The prize? How about sketches of how to install driving lights on a VTR...
skokievtr;
Thanks for the links on WWII.
Never Again is a righteous pledge. Just don't count on governments, The United Nations or "The World" to honor it.
Since that pledge was issued, the world has stood by and watched as a million Tibetans, two million Cambodians and 800,000 Rwandan Tutsis have been slaughtered and it is happening right now to black Christians in the Sudan.
Every innocent person should be dangerous to those who would oppress, enslave or murder him.
That means every individual person should own and be competent with weapons.
I believe that the motorcycle in your pictures is exactly what you said it is and the guy who thought it a Csepel was wrong. I thought it looked a lot like other E. European bikes but wasn't saying it was one. Your Ford/Chevy analogy is good enough so I'll lay off the "Jawa" already.
Are you saying the bike in your pictures is the same individual bike in the Milwaukee guy's picture?
PS What was the special prize we could have won?
Thanks for the links on WWII.
Never Again is a righteous pledge. Just don't count on governments, The United Nations or "The World" to honor it.
Since that pledge was issued, the world has stood by and watched as a million Tibetans, two million Cambodians and 800,000 Rwandan Tutsis have been slaughtered and it is happening right now to black Christians in the Sudan.
Every innocent person should be dangerous to those who would oppress, enslave or murder him.
That means every individual person should own and be competent with weapons.
I believe that the motorcycle in your pictures is exactly what you said it is and the guy who thought it a Csepel was wrong. I thought it looked a lot like other E. European bikes but wasn't saying it was one. Your Ford/Chevy analogy is good enough so I'll lay off the "Jawa" already.
Are you saying the bike in your pictures is the same individual bike in the Milwaukee guy's picture?
PS What was the special prize we could have won?
Last edited by skokievtr; Aug 22, 2008 at 07:56 PM.
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Yes to 4 out of 5. Didn't know Kahane originated Never Again. I always thought Kahane made more sense when he talked about Israel than anyone one else I'd heard.
In the early '80s I lived in LA's Fairfax District and got to know Irv Rubin enough to say hello and talk for a minute. Years later I was part of a pro 2A group working against the hysterical "assault weapon" legislation along side Irv, JDL and JPFO guys.
Every peoples standing on their own doesn't sound coarse, it just sounds realistic. And I'd go beyond "every peoples" to the extent that every person should be ready, willing and able to defend and fight whether they have a government to do it with or not.
There isn't ever going to be "One World" full of hugs and kisses. There isn't supposed to be (see Genesis Chapter 11).
And if they ever manage to institute a "New World Order" controlled by one government, it's going to be hell on earth.
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