Guy dies in dealer parking lot. Wear a Lid!!!
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Bah... I'm sposed to be sleeping... this is waay to interesting...
I have also tried living in both the US and UK... both has pro's and con's...
Never even been to Canada... but from what I have read on your laws and such it seems to be much more similar to Sweden than the US...
And I completely agree with you mikstr that it's all about what we consider reasonable... a law about helmets I consider reasonable...
My main argument is that fighting every law on principle alone, and disregarding the actual pro's and con's of the law itself seems to me a very strange standpoint...
It also seems to be a knee-jerk reflex action in almost any american to do so... and then when you get past the initial response most can agree with atleast some parts of that particular law on principle... but still detest it being a law...
I have also tried living in both the US and UK... both has pro's and con's...
Never even been to Canada... but from what I have read on your laws and such it seems to be much more similar to Sweden than the US...
And I completely agree with you mikstr that it's all about what we consider reasonable... a law about helmets I consider reasonable...
My main argument is that fighting every law on principle alone, and disregarding the actual pro's and con's of the law itself seems to me a very strange standpoint...
It also seems to be a knee-jerk reflex action in almost any american to do so... and then when you get past the initial response most can agree with atleast some parts of that particular law on principle... but still detest it being a law...
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,547
From: Way Out West
mikstr;
A little sidetrack never hurt anyone. Beside, this thread got sidetracked a while ago.
I know liberty is an ideal, but I believe one to be moved toward, not away from.
Abusive lawsuits are indeed a problem here, but a problem that stems from the abandonment of personal liberty and responsibility, not from their embrace. We never had all these lawyers before we got so liberal/collectivist and pro big government as the protector of all things.
If Cheney has veto power over what the press reports, he's fooking it up big time! Latest polls show George "New World Order" Bush with a 28% approval rating. Makes Nixon in '74 look popular!
I wish what you say about Canadian free speech/press was true. Have you been following the Mark Steyn/Macleans vs. Ontario Human Rights Commission?
Or the censorship imposing lawsuits brought by Richard Warman?
Lastly, I've spent time in Quebec, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. I've had good friends and roomies who came down here from Winnipeg. I like Canada and the folks who live there.
I wasn't pushing any Canada vs. U.S. baloney. I just wanted to talk about liberty, the reality and the concept, 'cause so many people here and throughout the western, first world seem to have lost sight of it in my opinion. That is all.
A little sidetrack never hurt anyone. Beside, this thread got sidetracked a while ago.
I know liberty is an ideal, but I believe one to be moved toward, not away from.
Abusive lawsuits are indeed a problem here, but a problem that stems from the abandonment of personal liberty and responsibility, not from their embrace. We never had all these lawyers before we got so liberal/collectivist and pro big government as the protector of all things.
If Cheney has veto power over what the press reports, he's fooking it up big time! Latest polls show George "New World Order" Bush with a 28% approval rating. Makes Nixon in '74 look popular!
I wish what you say about Canadian free speech/press was true. Have you been following the Mark Steyn/Macleans vs. Ontario Human Rights Commission?
Or the censorship imposing lawsuits brought by Richard Warman?
Lastly, I've spent time in Quebec, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. I've had good friends and roomies who came down here from Winnipeg. I like Canada and the folks who live there.
I wasn't pushing any Canada vs. U.S. baloney. I just wanted to talk about liberty, the reality and the concept, 'cause so many people here and throughout the western, first world seem to have lost sight of it in my opinion. That is all.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,315
From: Richmond, Virginia
Seriously though, we're a collection of 50 states that each have different laws. It's our way of keeping power closer to the people.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,138
From: Austin, Tx
I know liberty is an ideal, but I believe one to be moved toward, not away from.
And it needs to be practiced daily.
Lastly, I've spent time in Quebec, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. I've had good friends and roomies who came down here from Winnipeg. I like Canada and the folks who live there.
Mine are Saskatchuan, Minitoba, BC and put the NW Territories right up there with Alaska before I die.
'cause so many people here and throughout the western world seem to have lost sight of it in my opinion.
And they have no clue how poorly other societies fare in this modern world with the same mental inclinations.
"I am encouraged to become my greatest potential but that's a lot of work. It would be easier if I could just go to work and the government would provide me the rest of it." If this is the prevailing attitude in your neighborhood - move or move!
That is all.
Last edited by nuhawk; Apr 10, 2008 at 06:58 PM.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,547
From: Way Out West
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,315
From: Richmond, Virginia
Helmet laws exist in most Canadian provinces too and this too is a form of liberty. You see, it helps protect the taxpayers (we have a public health system) against having the liberty of paying for the injuries resulting from some dumbass riding without one... liberty is a multi-dimensional concept....
Like most of you, helmet law or not helmet law, I will not ride a bike (or snowmobile) without one.
Like most of you, helmet law or not helmet law, I will not ride a bike (or snowmobile) without one.
So call him dumb, invoke Darwin or whatever, but for freedoms sake quit placing the interests of the collective above those of the individual.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,547
From: Way Out West
A little bit of a stretch, but reminds me of the old joke.
Middle aged millionaire;
"Will you go to bed with me for a million dollars?"
Beautiful young woman;
"for a million dollars? sure."
Middle aged millionaire;
"how about for five dollars?"
Beautiful young woman;
" five dollars?, hell no, what kind of girl do you think I am?"
Middle aged millionaire;
"We've already established that, we're just haggling price."
When you accept that the state has the power to force you to wear a helmet, "for your own good" or for the "greater good" or for the "good of the National Health Service", what will you say when they forbid you to ride motorcycles for all the same reasons?
Middle aged millionaire;
"Will you go to bed with me for a million dollars?"
Beautiful young woman;
"for a million dollars? sure."
Middle aged millionaire;
"how about for five dollars?"
Beautiful young woman;
" five dollars?, hell no, what kind of girl do you think I am?"
Middle aged millionaire;
"We've already established that, we're just haggling price."
When you accept that the state has the power to force you to wear a helmet, "for your own good" or for the "greater good" or for the "good of the National Health Service", what will you say when they forbid you to ride motorcycles for all the same reasons?
Remember stock is BAD!
SuperSport
SuperSport
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 760
From: Jacksonville FL
I believe that the DWI limit is set by the individual states.
i support twins
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 395
From: Nashua, NH
just going to say this new hampshires motto is live free or die... some people live free with a helmet some die with one as well but you know what i wear mine because ive seen what can happen and as of right now im all set with peacing out of this mortal life... i feel for his family
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,138
From: Austin, Tx
They have never or will they write me for not wearing my helmet on my bike because I know the equation works the other way out there.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,315
From: Richmond, Virginia
My main argument is that fighting every law on principle alone, and disregarding the actual pro's and con's of the law itself seems to me a very strange standpoint... It also seems to be a knee-jerk reflex action in almost any american to do so... and then when you get past the initial response most can agree with atleast some parts of that particular law on principle... but still detest it being a law...
A wise man doesn't need a law to tell him what to do; his own self interest will take care of that quite well.
Same with seatbelts. Wore them before they were the law in Virginia. I'm all for a seatbelt law for children, but any adult should be free to make his own decision about such matters.
In general we believe less government is better.
Last edited by L8RGYZ; Apr 10, 2008 at 08:42 PM.
Fastest Color
SuperBike
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,091
From: Lithia, FL
You make a good observation. A wise man doesn't need a law to tell him what to do; his own self interest will take care of that quite well.
Same with seatbelts. Wore them before they were the law in Virginia. I'm all for a seatbelt law for children, but any adult should be free to make his own decision about such matters.
In general we believe less government is better.
Same with seatbelts. Wore them before they were the law in Virginia. I'm all for a seatbelt law for children, but any adult should be free to make his own decision about such matters.
In general we believe less government is better.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,547
From: Way Out West
My main argument is that fighting every law on principle alone, and disregarding the actual pro's and con's of the law itself seems to me a very strange standpoint...
It also seems to be a knee-jerk reflex action in almost any american to do so... and then when you get past the initial response most can agree with atleast some parts of that particular law on principle... but still detest it being a law...
I always ride with a helmet, regardless of law, because I value my head. I haven't spent five minutes in the last ten years fighting helmet laws, I just think they are bad law.
Here's the difference that many people, including lots of Americans, seem not to understand;
What I believe is good for myself or others as a matter of personal choice is one thing. What I think should be compelled and coerced as a matter of law is another.
it's basic philosophy stuff.
Unless and until someone is harming you, you should not personally or by empowering government in your stead, force your idea of "good" upon them.
Unless they are infringing upon your rights, what is "good" is for them to decide and for you to not worry about.
I don't want the state forcing persons to do anthing I wouldn't feel morally justified in forcing them to do myself.
If you lived across the street and wanted to ride without a helmet, I'd try to change your mind, but I wouldn't force a helmet onto your head. Why should I expect the state to do it? How noble is that? Whose head IS it?
Last edited by RK1; Apr 10, 2008 at 09:18 PM.
KindredGhost
Back Marker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 140
From: San Fernando Valley, CA
Dude, that's sad and what's even worse is to see folks riding in FL where there are no helmet requirements running down the interstate at 80+ mph w/o a lid. Mostly Harley folks cuz they'd rather be cool than alive...sad to say but it's basic survival of the fittest/smartest...I wear mine even to go to the local store cuz you never know when you're gonna eat it
Not only is it survival of the fittest, it's also a beautiful thing called "Natural Selection". Good thing is, people that choose to be stupid (and die) remove themselves from the human gene pool, thereby really doing us the favor. Hopefully they didn't get a chance to breed.
KG
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,806
From: Atlanta, GA
Sorry mikstr... but that's another false bugaboo used to erode personal freedom. Trust me pal, in the next 100 years such socio-centric logic will be used by your fellow citizens to prohibit you from riding motorcycles and eating french fries & a Quarter-Pounder.
So call him dumb, invoke Darwin or whatever, but for freedoms sake quit placing the interests of the collective above those of the individual.
So call him dumb, invoke Darwin or whatever, but for freedoms sake quit placing the interests of the collective above those of the individual.
A tip of the hat to RK1 also, who says the things I'm thinking better than I do.
Last edited by killer5280; Apr 11, 2008 at 01:58 AM.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,547
From: Way Out West
This is my favorite post in this thread and sums it up quite nicely. The argument that the collective has rights above the individual is false (individuals have rights but groups cannot and do not) but sells well to those who haven't taken the time to think it through. Emphasizing the "rights" of the collective over individual rights ultimately leads to state control of all human activity in the name of the "greater good".
A tip of the hat to RK1 also, who says the things I'm thinking better than I do.
A tip of the hat to RK1 also, who says the things I'm thinking better than I do.
Killer;
You say things just fine and anybody with a heart and a brain knows where you're coming from. And L8RGYZ's post is right on the money. Only individual sovereign human beings are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights". The collective, a fictitious business entity doing business as "government" has powers, not rights. In the U.S., that's supposed to be the strictly limited power authorized by our Constitution with a Bill of Rights forbiding infringement of our personal liberties.
When you consent to give the state the power to dictate what you must wear on your own head, the bastards will be happy to tell you what to ride, what to eat, what your weight should be, what you will be allowed to see, read and think. I don't know why so many people have so hard a time understanding this. If you keep giving away your liberty, you will end up being the slave-servant-*** ***** of of the State.
This is a good thread. For some real fun, I might have to start a thread about guns and the right of all free men to own them and carry them wherever they go.
Last edited by RK1; Apr 11, 2008 at 02:29 AM.
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 175
From: Amsterdam, NY.
In case you guys didn't notice, this guy was in NYS. where there is a helmet law. I'm guessing he was just testing the bike out, but by law he was supposed to be wearing a helmet. In my experience, that's usually when somebody gets hurt or killed - when they're just out f - -king around...
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 312
I always wear a helmet; always. But I would say the following:
- Fat people cost the common good more money in medical expenses than riders injured because they are helmet-less. Should the Government control what we eat?
- What is a free country? If we do not guard against it we will only be free to vote for an electoral collage member who may follow the majority or not.
- You cannot remove risk of loss or death from the equation no law will serve to do so.
- Let natural selection do its work.
- When your number is up, it’s up.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,315
From: Richmond, Virginia
Not only is it survival of the fittest, it's also a beautiful thing called "Natural Selection". Good thing is, people that choose to be stupid (and die) remove themselves from the human gene pool, thereby really doing us the favor. Hopefully they didn't get a chance to breed.KG
I don't suppose you'd include rock-climbers, motorcycle racers, etc. who make a mistake for which they pay dearly, in this simplistic gene pool cleansing idea. They're usually some of the "fittest" people on the planet.
Duc Hawk
SuperSport
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 691
From: Malibu's canyons
Its crazy to think that a Democrat president is responsible for giving back our liberty to not wear a helmet ( in states that allowed it)...
http://www.mrf.org/articles/1997/victory.html
Helmet laws don't bother me that much. The worst moto related law was the mid 80's 700cc max for imported bikes. That was passed by a Repblican President!
It's odd but it seems that these days Republicans are increasing the size and reach of government more than Demos!
http://www.mrf.org/articles/1997/victory.html
Helmet laws don't bother me that much. The worst moto related law was the mid 80's 700cc max for imported bikes. That was passed by a Repblican President!
It's odd but it seems that these days Republicans are increasing the size and reach of government more than Demos!
Last edited by Moto Man; Apr 11, 2008 at 02:02 PM.
Fastest Color
SuperBike
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,091
From: Lithia, FL
Its crazy to think that a Democrat president is responsible for giving back our liberty to not wear a helmet ( in states that allowed it)...
http://www.mrf.org/articles/1997/victory.html
Helmet laws don't bother me that much. The worst moto related law was the mid 80's 700cc limit passed by a Repblican President!
Its odd but seems that these days Republicans are increasing the size and reach of government more than Demos.
http://www.mrf.org/articles/1997/victory.html
Helmet laws don't bother me that much. The worst moto related law was the mid 80's 700cc limit passed by a Repblican President!
Its odd but seems that these days Republicans are increasing the size and reach of government more than Demos.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,631
From: Montreal
"Helmet laws don't bother me that much. The worst moto related law was the mid 80's 700cc max for imported bikes."
I think you got your facts a bit mixed up. The issue you refer is not a ban but a protective tarif which was applied to all imported motorcycles over 700 cc. It was for a four-year period (believed it was in the order of 39.4/29.4/19.4 and 9.4%) and was meant to help Harley get back on its feet after management bought the company back from AMF. The effect was the the Japs offered 700's (GS700,...) in those years instead of 750's for example. There was never, however, an outright ban on larger displacement bikes. Thankfully, Canada was not affected by this and we kept getting the 750's
I think you got your facts a bit mixed up. The issue you refer is not a ban but a protective tarif which was applied to all imported motorcycles over 700 cc. It was for a four-year period (believed it was in the order of 39.4/29.4/19.4 and 9.4%) and was meant to help Harley get back on its feet after management bought the company back from AMF. The effect was the the Japs offered 700's (GS700,...) in those years instead of 750's for example. There was never, however, an outright ban on larger displacement bikes. Thankfully, Canada was not affected by this and we kept getting the 750's
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
AZ has no helmet law, and I think that is just fine. If you don't value your brains why should I?
I don't ever plan to ride without one, the only time I will on my sh is if I ever end up having to give someone a unplanned ride, then THEY will get my lid and I will ride without.
The only problem I have with riding without a helmet is that Medicare kicks in for dumbasses who get injured. I think if you ride without one it should be assumed you don't expect and won't get socialized medical care. (private care would depend on the type of coverage you have etc)
I don't ever plan to ride without one, the only time I will on my sh is if I ever end up having to give someone a unplanned ride, then THEY will get my lid and I will ride without.
The only problem I have with riding without a helmet is that Medicare kicks in for dumbasses who get injured. I think if you ride without one it should be assumed you don't expect and won't get socialized medical care. (private care would depend on the type of coverage you have etc)
Moderate-whore
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,052
From: Leander TX!!
this from a guy on our local board...
"Here is the inside scoop. VFRD is so big everybody knows somebody. it sounds like he was just negotiating the parking lot.
The salesperson there is actually a friend of a friend at work. Heres what happened. The guy hasnt ridden in 20 ish years. He gets his new bike, and wants to bring it home on his truck. The sales guy tells him that he'll do it, on the loading ramp they have. The guy says he wants to do it himself (and gave him the look like...its a personal thing) So the sales guy again says NO..you really should let us load the bike for you, and again the guy refuses and says that he HAS to do it himself. So now, (gear-less, helmetless) hopps on, and engages the clutch...starts rolling in the direction of the new row of bikes, and instead of leaning it a little, he jerks on the bars in the opposite direction, causing his hand to roll onto the throttle instantaneously. The bike lurches violently ahead, and as he tries to correct, he ends up gassing it right into the back of a pickup truck. So there ya have it. I feel incredibly sad for his family who watched the whole ordeal from start to finish. I cant imagine what they're going through. The sales guy insisted multiple times that HE should put the bike on the truck via his ramp, but was refused. My prayers go out to him and his family, but yes...this is a billboard for ATGATT!!!!!!!! If it can happen to a guy in a parking lot, it can happen to you!!!!!"
_________________
"Here is the inside scoop. VFRD is so big everybody knows somebody. it sounds like he was just negotiating the parking lot.
The salesperson there is actually a friend of a friend at work. Heres what happened. The guy hasnt ridden in 20 ish years. He gets his new bike, and wants to bring it home on his truck. The sales guy tells him that he'll do it, on the loading ramp they have. The guy says he wants to do it himself (and gave him the look like...its a personal thing) So the sales guy again says NO..you really should let us load the bike for you, and again the guy refuses and says that he HAS to do it himself. So now, (gear-less, helmetless) hopps on, and engages the clutch...starts rolling in the direction of the new row of bikes, and instead of leaning it a little, he jerks on the bars in the opposite direction, causing his hand to roll onto the throttle instantaneously. The bike lurches violently ahead, and as he tries to correct, he ends up gassing it right into the back of a pickup truck. So there ya have it. I feel incredibly sad for his family who watched the whole ordeal from start to finish. I cant imagine what they're going through. The sales guy insisted multiple times that HE should put the bike on the truck via his ramp, but was refused. My prayers go out to him and his family, but yes...this is a billboard for ATGATT!!!!!!!! If it can happen to a guy in a parking lot, it can happen to you!!!!!"
_________________
Moderate-whore
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,052
From: Leander TX!!
I am voting for myself this year...I could do just as bad a job as those three nutcases can!!
I don't even know which will be the lessor of the evils this round...And I am a Rep...
Almost ready to move to Costa Rica and call it a day, or life...LOL
I don't even know which will be the lessor of the evils this round...And I am a Rep...
Almost ready to move to Costa Rica and call it a day, or life...LOL
