tomzxt

I was wondering if any of the members on here would be interested in helping me install some APE CCTs that live in or around the Tampa, FL area. I live in New Port Richey, FL and was hoping somebody could come out to my garage and assist me with this install that has had experience with them. I just passed 3K miles the other day and keep hearing the phantom ticks. Then I move my keys off of the triple tree. Just want to be on the safe side and get it over with. Any takers?

tomzxt

I forgot to mention I don't mind paying for the help, fuel to get here, lunch, ect. as long as it is reasonable.

K30

I just did mine this weekend, at 26k miles. The 'hardest' part was taking the fairing/tank/airbox off and putting it back on again, especially getting all the hoses back on the damn airbox. I even had the front cylinder jump a few teeth because I wasn't at TDC and that wasn't a hard fix.

Hope you can get someone to help you out but don't worry about it too much, it really is pretty simple.

Wicky

I can fly into Tampa via NY from Heathrow next week with my tools

tomzxt

I knew somebody couldn't resist wicky. I regret to inform you in will be declining your services at this time as per the reasonable part. :P

saige

hi,i could help you out,im here in largo.but it would have to be thursday or friday.
do you have tools and such.

tomzxt

I am getting ready to order the CCTs this weekend from APE or another member. I have all the tools in my garage. A Friday would work perfect. I have Fridays/Saturdays off. Thank you for responding.

klx678

I've actually helped a rider adjust his tensioner in his Kawasaki Eliminator. He bought one from me and was having some issues with noise and adjustment. He called me and was actually on the cell with him as he actually did the work - well, except when he took a ride to warm it up for final adjusment. Turned out he had a problem with Kaw's air injection reed block that is in the cam cover. He overtightened the tensioner at first, but we straightened that out and got it right. But we did the whole thing, he with the bike and me at the kitchen table.

I'd have to do some digging, but I did have someone in Largo pick up a tensioner. Not sure what bike it was for.

saige

hi,sorry,didnt respond earlier.i have thursday and friday off this coming week,and maybe saturday,i would rather do it thursday,but if you only can do it friday,morning would be good if you up too it.

tomzxt

I just want to give a HUGE thanks out to saige and klx678. Saige helped me switch out my CCTs. He came out of his way on his day off just to help out another rider without expecting any compensation. Just for the pure love of doing it. Klx678 provided me with reasonable priced CCTs. Everything about them screamed professional. How to instructions bike specific, both were marked front/back, plastic thread protectors, and even stickers! If you guys need anything done I would highly recommend these guys for said services.

klx678

Was there refreshments for the help there? That's one good guy coming to help. That's motorcyclists at their best.

I appreciate the kind words too.

tomzxt

No problem klx. I forgot to mention you had very fast shipping and great communication as well. There were refreshments available. However, he brought his own. He didn't ever ask for anything but I gave him $50 since that was the least I could do for him assisting me. I could have done it myself with the instructions from this forum. I just felt WAY more comfortable have somebody experienced be my wingman on this one. CCTs are a little too important on my bike that has 4k original miles. Now on to the R/R. MOFSET here I come!

DocPigskin17

sweet deal. Nice to see fellow riders helping each other out. Soooo.....speaking of that.....is there anyone in the Mankato, MN area that wants to help put in a set a manual CCT's?

saige

its not a problem at all,it was a chill time for me.it was good meeting you and the family,sorry it took a little longer than expected,just wanted to make sure it was done right.ohhhh,and on the rear one,just keep a eye on it,it shouldnt leak,but just to make sure the silacone set in right.
If you need a little help locating the R/R for the bike,let me know,i could find some here in st.pete for you at pretty good prices,and even get the plug and connectors.a guy down here has all that little stuff.
By the way,how the test go?

tomzxt

I've been keeping an eye on the rear. So far so good with no leaks. If you can I'd like to get a MOFSET R/R with the plugs if you know of one. The test went fantastic! I passed both the written and the clinical first time. I get my license in the mail in 13 more days. I still want to try to get the fluids changed. If you are free in a few weeks Maybe we can plan that next. Did you get a chance to map out where everybody was in Florida yet?

klx678

What leak?

saige

it can leak from the cct bolt if no blue silacone is not applied to the inside of the nut and o-ring.

saige

cool,thats good.i will look into the R/R for you on my day off,i gotta look for something for my bike anyway.
in the next couple of days,im gonna start pinning on google maps so i can see the distance between every one.
congrats on the tests.first time is real good,looks like on to something new and better.
in a couple of weeks is fine,just let me know.i will see if geek will let me borrow his brake bleeder,and we do both bikes,i gotta replace my clutch line and such,so it will come in handy.

klx678

Neither of my bikes leaks from the tensioners. I've only had three comments about it. One actually dripped - I sent him a new tensioner and told him how to rework the one he had to make it oil tight. The other two didn't actually leak. One would get a light coat of oil that would attract dirt. That rider was going to put in a fatter O-ring. I just sent two new Viton O-rings to the other rider, I don't remember if he said it was allowing some oil coating or if he just liked the idea of my now using Viton seals that have a higher temperature tolerance and wanted one.



In this photo you can see the O-ring and the small chamfer behind it on the disassembled tensioner. On the other one you can see the flange nut is not seated against the body, but it is actually seated against the O-ring. The additional tightening when the nut is locked down will quite literally compress the O-ring into the chamfer and threads, creating the seal.

A leak will come from not having proper compression of the O-ring. I did the calculation for my seal area after I had the one that actually leaked. When I figured my original dimensions used, I found it was right on the border of having inadequate compression of the O-ring. The O-ring cross sectional area was roughly equal to the area allowed by the chamfer cross section and the threads, so any slight error could cause a leak. I reduced that chamfer cross sectional area to have the O-ring compound actually compressed into the area. That seals it up.

It seems most others are trying to use a nyloc nut to seal the threads, but that doesn't seal the area at the base of the nut. The seal I'm using is the kind of seal that made sense based on some experience working out the seals for hydraulic cylinder rebuilds when I did the repair drafting sketches. The O-ring under proper compression will seal against the body and the threads, with heat the Viton compound should actually try to expand at a higher rate than the surrounding metal. Since there is no pressure other than crank case pressure there should be no leakage. My Zephyr is dry after 10,000 miles, the KLX shows minor dampness after a couple thousand miles since it was cleaned, but no actual coating of oil like it actually had when I did my original OEM body conversion with no seal. And that tensioner is one of the first hand cut ones I did with the guesswork chamfer.

I guess there's nothing wrong with playing it safe, but there's about a 99% chance you didn't need the silicone. My seal was thought out and the math done.

Just wanted to let you know... it may have been an educated bit of guesswork originally, but last fall that one from the UK that leaked made me actually do the math. Now it isn't guesswork. I actually check that dimension on each of the parts as I do them.

tomzxt

It was just precautionary for any type of manual chain tensioner. Nothing against your product. I just wanted to put it on and adjust it once and be done with it with no more worries. I can say safely that it has not even made the slightest indication of even wanting to leak. Your product still holds it's good name

klx678

Your comments weren't offending by any stretch, I understand the whole thing. Others have simply tried to put nylocs on to seal the threads, but that seals them AFTER the base of the nut and the body, leaving that area for oil to ooze out through the threads. I knew it needs sealing AT the body, the nut, and the thread. That was what I was pointing out. The seal on the ones I've made are AT the joint and the math has been done to try to make the compression seal as good as it could be made with the processes used.

As for using silicone, that's fine and dandy. It is a back up, but should not be needed. The beauty of the seal, when put in the right place, is that it doesn't need gunked or regunked on adjustments as a seal of silicone would likely to need be redone when it's broken loose. That's really why I made the point. The seal IS in the right place and should survive adjustments without replacement. Some engineering based on previous work experience was done.

You took a step used with a lesser design that should not be needed with mine. I just saw the opportunity to say that, bring out the engineering point, and did so. Thanks for the opportunity and the compliment on the parts.

superdutyd

I take major offense to what you wrote. My parts are what you called a "lesser design". There is nothing wrong with using thread sealant. It has been proven to work by automotive, motorcycle and other industries. When a non-hardening sealant is used, it does not need to be re-applied for future adjustments. The sealant is not necessary with my design either, i just like the added security. My cct body is made from 1" thick aluminum, yours is made from 1/2" to save you money. That means there is twice the thread engagement on mine which makes them more rigid. It also recesses into the engine like the factory cct and makes it more rigid closer to the cam chain. Mine is anodized to protect it from corrosion, yours is unplated to save you money. My adjuster nut is pinned to keep it in place and make a place to safety wire it. Yours uses a acorn nut so you don't have the extra step of drilling the nut/adjuster, to again save yourself money. You say you "engineered" the o-ring seal. You use a nut to turn against and compress the o-ring into the threads. That is not how o-rings were designed to be used. There is a reason that me, APE, and every other manufacturer of Superhawk cct's use this same or similar designs. It's the best design. Yours is just the cheapest design.

By the way, you don't even own a Superhawk, do you?

klx678

Sorry you take offense, but with one less feature it is a lesser design. Much like having a car without power steering is one of a lesser design.

And NO I DON'T HAVE A SUPERHAWK, MY SIGNATURE SAYS THAT RATHER CLEARLY. I was looked up by a member who asked if I could make the tensioners, due to my reputation with tensioners in general among the Kawasaki groups. I have sold somewhere around 300 tensioners in the past three years in 18 countries. I haven't counted, but they're probably in about 40 states of the US by now. Pretty good for some guy who just got bugged a bit by the fact that no one made the parts for his bikes and ignored the request to do so. The guys in the KLX and Zephyr forums must have been bugged too, since they supported the effort. Then the ZL/ZG/ZX guys, the KLX250 guys, KZ guys, and now some VTR guys. I listened when asked and produced when given specs to do so.

I used both mechanical and hydraulics knowledge and experience when I made the first ones I made. You see, in hydraulics it isn't unusual to simply use a compression seal, which I did with some calculations on the space for the compression to work. Not rocket science, but engineering none the less. I didn't copy anything other than the simplistic design of putting a thru bolt though a piece of metal to adjust the slider shoe on a cam drive. Pretty much what everyone's done. I looked at what problems I had with my modified stock tensioner in my KLX before doing the one for the Zephyr and solved them. I guess for that I apologize.

I used .500 aluminum, stress testing it to see if I could rip out the threads. I looked up thread engagement and found having any more than the amount of thread engagement I have unnecessary. With a bit more hitting of the statics and strengths books and what was learned in the classes, I know there is little, if any, angular stress on that adjuster bolt. The main stress is compression, so the extra support is unnecessary and the M8 cross section is plenty adequate. When you consider the fact that the adjustment is finger tight and the actual slider shoe is basically plastic it becomes clear there is little serious pressure against the bolt, otherwise that slider would break. The real problem is just taking up the slack in the cam drive. Overkill just is added expense.

When researching materials one of the benefits of 6061 T aluminum, besides machinability was corrosion resistance. Which has been proven out to me on the KLX where it doesn't get cleaned too much, yet that tensioner is still bright and shiny in spite of not having the annodization process added. You see, I did consider annodizing, but again, it adds nothing so why pay for it. If someone wants red, black, blue, or any other color tensioner (and they will usually want the color you don't have), just go to some car parts store and get some of the Duplicolor transparent paint shown on those hot rodding shows and shoot the part.

I considered drilling for safety wire, but decided that would be up to the racer. A jam nut on the acorn is no big deal. The only reason for them in the first place is 1) something to grip while adjusting the bolt and then to hold the bolt in place while locking down the flange nut and 2) looks, the acorn looks nice. If anything needs drilling it is the lock nut and the design allows removal for it to be drilled.

I am sorry I "overdesigned" the tensioner so silicone seal wasn't required any longer. But I just didn't want to bother getting a tube of it to seal up what shouldn't need it when I used the parts I made. If a good seal is included in the design I didn't need the goop.

I also apologize for the countersunk fasteners to clean up the design and allow accessability to the lock nut, not to mention making the adjuster nuts able to be taken apart to replace the seal if it ever needs it.

I am sorry this was a well thought out design, including a low cost manufacturing process using a simple flat .500 piece of aluminum to keep it down on cost to the riders. There was no reason to extend the body down into the cylinder, since it was only there, at least on the Kawasakis, to have the mediocre ratchet mechanism partially extended into the cylinder rather than outside, and to hold the rack and pawl mechanism. It didn't have any function for the larger diameter M8 bolt used in a manual adjuster. So why bother adding the complexity of having to machine that snout.

I am sorry I thought this all out when I did the work.

FL02SupaHawk996

Saige is Da Man!

leaks

superdutyd

First of all let me state that i designed and tested my cct's on my own Superhawks, bikes which i have owned for over 10 years.

I could easily add an o-ring to my design, and i will if that's what people want. I prefer using sealant.

I use thicker aluminum and a nylon locknut because the motors on these bike tend to vibrate alot, and i don't want the adjuster to come loose. Also, extending it into the motor prevents the adjusting screw from being totally bathed in oil. Again my personal preference, better to be safe than sorry. I want overkill on something protecting my motor.

6060 T aluminum has "good" corrosion resistance, but with anodizing it has "excellent" corrosion resistance. The very first unplated cct i made years ago is still on my buddies bike and it is corroded a bit.

I easily could have counter sunk the mounting holes, but i prefer to use the factory bolts. I also used a longer lock nut so adjusting it is no problem.

I agree yours is a well thought out design. Designed to be as cheap as possible so you can make more money. I make these parts as a service to fellow Superhawk riders, so manufacturing cost is not a concern to me.

klx678

I'll tell you what, you think it is so cheap, how much machine time did you save by short cutting on a seal? How much did you save by not including zinc coated fasteners? How much did you cut by not bothering to do some nice stickers? (You see, I happen to like good quality stickers and decided to put them in with the kits I did. Not of any mechancial value, but kind of cool none the less.)

I spent time thinking this part out, just because I didn't copy what others did, just because I actually looked up thread engagement recommendations, just because I researched materials properties (yes, I went zinc coated over stainless because stainless could seize up and that would be bad as well as skipping annodizing since the aluminum has the characteristics already and colors become issues), just because I did what mechanically made sense, you think I cheaped out. Well, I didn't cheap out. I made the part so it was what I felt was fair priced. Apparently you don't think it is.

So since you think I cheaped out, I'm going to drop the price to $60 a set because YOU think it is too expensive. I will also rebate those who have already bought them! This isn't intended to be a huge source of income, I teach school for a living. Rather it is for fun and to be in contact and help others. The profit margin is for my efforts in making the parts and shipping them, helping defray some of my motorcycling. Since you think it's too high I will cut it just for you.

Anyone who has bought a set of the Krieger Cam Chaiin Tensioners and would like the rebate, please email me to make sure you get your $5 back. It will be done through PayPal and you'll end up with slightly less since they will get their fee, but still you get money back. Of course if you feel the price was reasonable that's fine. I know this is going to require me to kick back about $100, but hey I guess I'm charging too much for the engineering and product since I didn't make it like all the others, because I made it how I would have wanted it. I will stay at the new price as long as I can with the cost of materials and what I do.

Tweety

Ok, I usually let people argue things on their own, but since I this time happen to like both your efforts, and believe you are both about equally right and wrong at the same time, I'm going to chime in and give a third view to this...

First, to clarify... I'm unlikely to buy a CCT from either of you, since I have already made my own DIY version by putting a bolt through a stock CCT... And if I wanted too, i could make my own version of what you are doing before the end of the day... But I still have opinions... (When do I not have opinions?!)

First point, color... I couldn't care less about the color of the CCT's, so that point goes to klx678...

Second, stickers... Again, I couldn't care less... One point to superdutyd...

Third, sealant... I really, really dislike having to use a goop to seal threads, when there is a perfectl working solution to the problem... Adding a chamfer and an O-ring is a brilliant solution... That point goes to klx678, and the fact that APE, and others haven't done it, is not a reason that superdutyd can't copy that, making his already good product even better than APE's...

Fourth, corrosion... I dislike corrosion, and adding anodizing increases the protection of the naked aluminium... So that point goes to superdutyd... (You can make a clear anodization, less costly than the coloured, and only for protection)

Fifth, the ability to repair or refurbish things... While I like the fact that superdutyd uses a pin to lock the adjuster nut, it makes it harder to disassemble the CCT, and since the acorn nut is not a stressed member, just along for the ride once you have locked the other nut, it's sufficiently held on with a dose of loctite, and makes it easy to replace the o-ring if needed... That point goes to klx678...

Sixth, vibration... superdutyd is correct, the Superhawk creates a lot of vibration, and putting a flanged nut without nyloc to hold it for an extended period, is like asking for trouble... That point goes to superdutyd... But a small sidenote... The nyloc is useless as an oilseal, it's only purpose is to keep the nut from vibrating loose...

Seventh, fasteners... No argument here... klx678 is right, stainless bolts can sieze, so he gets that point...

Eight, fasteners... I like the ability to re-use the original bolts, which superdutyd's design allows... But I like the fact that there are no bolt heads to make adjusting the CCT more frustrating than it already is better... This point goes to klx678 for the countersunk bolts...

Ninth, the length of thread/body thickness... The lenght of thread is obviously enough without an insert, like klx678 said... But there is another issue, besides the thread... superdutyd brought it up, saying he didn't like the bolt being bathed in oil becuase it created a leak... The leak isn't an issue, either goop or o-ring takes care of that... But the potential problem with creating a chamber that retains oil, and byproducts isn't something I particularily like... So that point goes to superdutyd...

Price... Well, both of you have the prices at fair levels... With or without recent price changes... So even if the prices are different, I consider that a draw...

In total... 5 - 4 to klx678... But he still looses in the end, since I really, really dislike the part of creating an oil chamber...

Now, both of you... Clear your heads, and have a look at the information you each have given each other... You could both learn and improve your products... Have nice day...

saige

superdutyd and klx678 you both are lucky im not in the mood right now to give you both a peice of my mind.
YOU BOTH SAID ENOUGH IN A THREAD YOU BOTH HI-JACKED,NOW BEFORE I SAY ****.TAKE THIS PISSING CONTEST TO ANOTHER THREAD.
this was suppose to be a help thread and such.
so take this pissing contest someplace else.
sorry to everyone else who has been polite in this thread.

saige

+1 thank you tweety,i didnt feel like writing all that right now.

klx678

I quit with the rhetoric. It was never a contest. I've only pointed out when challenged, what I did and the technical reasons why (including the corrosion thing - believe me it has been tested with the way I clean (not) the KLX, annodizing was superfluous based on that 2 year experiment among others), if that isn't information for a choice I don't know what is.

I made what I made to improve on things that existed on what was and still is on the market and pointed that out. I used to do that for a living, problem solving, as a quality engineer. Nothing else to do, but let the part speak for itself now and I think it does. I didn't do it just for money - thus the rebate to buy a pint for all the guys who bought and the price cut. I lose a bit, but hey, it wasn't about making as much as I can. I still have to catch the guy here in Columbus, he stopped by and paid cash.

I could probably do better working at Lowes or Home Depot evenings and weekends, but I wouldn't meet up with new people on-line and at Mid Ohio both at Vintage Days and Superbike races. I actually got to meet up with the Elliminator Owners Group last year. Delivered a tensioner for a 550 to a racer two years ago. Hopefully maybe meet up with some Superhawk people there this year. I don't sell anything there, I'm there for the races and to goof around. Like I said, it's for the fun and adventure.


Later...