View Poll Results: Which work better as replacements?
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll
CCT?
04-11-2006, 04:13 PM
#1
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Location: Phoenix
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CCT?
So after reading the longest topic I have ever looked at. I am completely baffled. So I have decided to take a poll. If you have replaced you ACCTs with MCCTs or if you just replaced stock which ones have you found work best. I know enough about motors and bikes that I could do almost any work on my bike myself so since I value my time I would like to know what works best. I am nearing the critical mileage and I am starting to get some valve noise but nothing to worry about yet.
04-11-2006, 04:46 PM
#2
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Superstock
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Merritt,MI.
Posts: 474
Re: CCT?
I'll be watching this poll closely as I'm very confused on wich way to go I don't want to have to adjust the manual cct's often. but I don't want the honda replacement's to fail either.Maybe it's time to buy the new 06 cbr 1000rr?
04-11-2006, 06:47 PM
#4
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SuperSport
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nananimo, B.C.
Posts: 764
Re: CCT?
That was me. Due to the lock nut the manual CCT's should only need adjusting when your cam chain stretches. Since everyone should be checking their valve clearances once a season, thats the time to re-adjust the manual CCT if necessary.
The controversy is this, Honda has changed the part number on the stock self-adjusting CCT's and changed the color code painted dot on them at least 3 times. Nothing I've read or heard so far has confirmed whether they have addressed the original problem with them (I believe the spring snaps and the CCT backs itself off and the chain then slackens and jumps teeth and a catastrophic engine failure ensues) but one would assume that they have.
Some people who have experienced this unfortunate event have said that there was no warning signs/sounds that a failure was imiment, others have heard noise and caught it in time.
The stock automatic CCT's ratchet down as the cam chain wears and keeps a specific tension via the spring on the chain.
From what I've heard/read the manual CCT's are preferred for race engines although I can't recall the reasons why.
The down side to the manual CCT's is that it is paramount that they be properly adjusted. Too tight and they will prematurely wear out the cam chain, too loose and ..well you can imagine.
I've seen two types of after market manual CCT's for the Superhawk. One is from APE and the other I can't remember but is posted deep in these forums. The non-APE one appears to be made sturdier than the APE but, imo, the only force on the CCT bolt is compression, its overkill and the APE is just fine.
PS: the instruction sheet printed on the back of the APE package said to adjust the tension on the cam chain till there was 1/4" deflection. That is a misprint as it's supposed to read 1/4" total SLACK.
The controversy is this, Honda has changed the part number on the stock self-adjusting CCT's and changed the color code painted dot on them at least 3 times. Nothing I've read or heard so far has confirmed whether they have addressed the original problem with them (I believe the spring snaps and the CCT backs itself off and the chain then slackens and jumps teeth and a catastrophic engine failure ensues) but one would assume that they have.
Some people who have experienced this unfortunate event have said that there was no warning signs/sounds that a failure was imiment, others have heard noise and caught it in time.
The stock automatic CCT's ratchet down as the cam chain wears and keeps a specific tension via the spring on the chain.
From what I've heard/read the manual CCT's are preferred for race engines although I can't recall the reasons why.
The down side to the manual CCT's is that it is paramount that they be properly adjusted. Too tight and they will prematurely wear out the cam chain, too loose and ..well you can imagine.
I've seen two types of after market manual CCT's for the Superhawk. One is from APE and the other I can't remember but is posted deep in these forums. The non-APE one appears to be made sturdier than the APE but, imo, the only force on the CCT bolt is compression, its overkill and the APE is just fine.
PS: the instruction sheet printed on the back of the APE package said to adjust the tension on the cam chain till there was 1/4" deflection. That is a misprint as it's supposed to read 1/4" total SLACK.
04-11-2006, 07:27 PM
#5
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Squid
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: los angeles, ca
Posts: 25
Re: CCT?
NOrrTH pretty well summed it up.
I'll add that once you get them adjusted by measured slack and buttoned up, you check or 'fine tune' the adjustment by backing the adjustment out till the engine just starts to make chain slap noise, then tighten the adjustment till the noise just stops.
When pulling cams I find it easier to just remove the manual tensioner, instead of loosening and re-adjusting.
And yes, after break-in the cam chains never seem to need re-adjustment. Just pull out your ear plugs and listen for chain noise once in a while.
~Jeffers
~CaffeineRacer~VTR996~SVS996~
Los Angeles, California, USA
http://www.labiker.com/members/?JeffGronert
I'll add that once you get them adjusted by measured slack and buttoned up, you check or 'fine tune' the adjustment by backing the adjustment out till the engine just starts to make chain slap noise, then tighten the adjustment till the noise just stops.
When pulling cams I find it easier to just remove the manual tensioner, instead of loosening and re-adjusting.
And yes, after break-in the cam chains never seem to need re-adjustment. Just pull out your ear plugs and listen for chain noise once in a while.
~Jeffers
~CaffeineRacer~VTR996~SVS996~
Los Angeles, California, USA
http://www.labiker.com/members/?JeffGronert
04-15-2006, 07:38 AM
#6
Member
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
Re: CCT?
Yes you are all nearly correct, BUT, in my opinion and I am bias towards having adjustable CCTs because i sell replacements springs for them yes thats right springs!
The front CCT is a nightmare of a pig, it is lodged between the V without any supply of lube, basically it is like standing on the surface of Mercury in your carpet slippers, the rear CCT is exactly the opposite it gets a feed of oil supplied by gravity flowing into then CCT hence much less of a problem! The solid type of adjustment is a bit hit and miss, its okay to say well do it once a year blah blah blah, but how the hell can you apply the correct tension on the chain? to much and you increase the drag on ancillary components which loses you horsepower, excessive tension can lead to premature cam chain falure, cam chain guide wear, excessive strain on camshaft journals. To LITTLE tension and its back to square one the death rattle and wear of the chain and ancillary components all over again.
The problem is there is a problem with CCTs the problem is getting honda to admit to the problem if they did admit to the problem the problem would then become a problem for honda costing many yens this might not be a problem for honda but thats the problem if you still dont see the problem thats the problem and start from the top!
I supply a spring manufactured using a VTR1000 CCT spring as my template all hand made of course ! Nothing lasts forever so fitment is at our own volition .
A spring is the only real way to ensure that wear in the cam chain is kept under control at a constant rate. I have shipped these springs to a member on this forum and he fitted them without a hitch!
Look at when you adjust your chain to the back wheel, do it then turn the wheel a half turn, tension varies?? so what happens to the chain?
Happy Days
Dave
The front CCT is a nightmare of a pig, it is lodged between the V without any supply of lube, basically it is like standing on the surface of Mercury in your carpet slippers, the rear CCT is exactly the opposite it gets a feed of oil supplied by gravity flowing into then CCT hence much less of a problem! The solid type of adjustment is a bit hit and miss, its okay to say well do it once a year blah blah blah, but how the hell can you apply the correct tension on the chain? to much and you increase the drag on ancillary components which loses you horsepower, excessive tension can lead to premature cam chain falure, cam chain guide wear, excessive strain on camshaft journals. To LITTLE tension and its back to square one the death rattle and wear of the chain and ancillary components all over again.
The problem is there is a problem with CCTs the problem is getting honda to admit to the problem if they did admit to the problem the problem would then become a problem for honda costing many yens this might not be a problem for honda but thats the problem if you still dont see the problem thats the problem and start from the top!
I supply a spring manufactured using a VTR1000 CCT spring as my template all hand made of course ! Nothing lasts forever so fitment is at our own volition .
A spring is the only real way to ensure that wear in the cam chain is kept under control at a constant rate. I have shipped these springs to a member on this forum and he fitted them without a hitch!
Look at when you adjust your chain to the back wheel, do it then turn the wheel a half turn, tension varies?? so what happens to the chain?
Happy Days
Dave
04-15-2006, 10:35 AM
#7
Junior Member
Squid
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: los angeles, ca
Posts: 25
That's pretty funny Dave, I love British humor.
You don't need constant pressure on the cam chain, you only need the slack taken out. And the slack doesn't change enough hot and cold to make a differance you need to compensate for.
~Jeffers
You don't need constant pressure on the cam chain, you only need the slack taken out. And the slack doesn't change enough hot and cold to make a differance you need to compensate for.
~Jeffers
04-15-2006, 10:59 AM
#8
Member
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
Re: CCT?
Howdy dooo
Caffeine racer
I have friend in Hawaii who is American, and he has a saying and please dont be offended, but he would say you talk a crock a ****, me i reserve judgement, because you either dont understand or just like sittin back and let others do the leg work while you take the ****??? I have no data on how far the metal expands or contracts but you must have?? My friend in Hawaii has saying it KISS "Keep It Simple Stoopid" he also warns me not play online mortal kombat with people who know it all. I am aware that the CCT problem is a subject of many a debate, with many a theory as to its cause, there is no magical fix just change the springs on a regular basis. I am sorry that you see my explanation as funny, but its an explanation, whats your input F*** all of any use to anyone !! I can offer a hypothosise on the subject i have no problem with constructive crtitiscm but i know I cant teach pigs to sing. Tension o exerted torsionally by the spring maintains a tension on the cam chain allowing for wear, how does your idea work ??? oh yeh you aint got one have you DOH!
Caffeine racer
I have friend in Hawaii who is American, and he has a saying and please dont be offended, but he would say you talk a crock a ****, me i reserve judgement, because you either dont understand or just like sittin back and let others do the leg work while you take the ****??? I have no data on how far the metal expands or contracts but you must have?? My friend in Hawaii has saying it KISS "Keep It Simple Stoopid" he also warns me not play online mortal kombat with people who know it all. I am aware that the CCT problem is a subject of many a debate, with many a theory as to its cause, there is no magical fix just change the springs on a regular basis. I am sorry that you see my explanation as funny, but its an explanation, whats your input F*** all of any use to anyone !! I can offer a hypothosise on the subject i have no problem with constructive crtitiscm but i know I cant teach pigs to sing. Tension o exerted torsionally by the spring maintains a tension on the cam chain allowing for wear, how does your idea work ??? oh yeh you aint got one have you DOH!
04-15-2006, 02:25 PM
#9
Junior Member
Squid
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: los angeles, ca
Posts: 25
With automatic adjusters they have to calibrate a spring tension that's strong enough to keep them quiet, but not so strong to cause undo wear on the chain and chain guides.
With manual you adjust to 'take up the slack' without putting any extra tension on the chain that causes unnecessary friction.
That's why manual tensioners are an improvement over the automatic tensioners.
That plus the safe guard against engine failure should the spring fail _or_ the screw ramp wear on the automatics. This can't happen with a manual tensioner.
~Jeffers
With manual you adjust to 'take up the slack' without putting any extra tension on the chain that causes unnecessary friction.
That's why manual tensioners are an improvement over the automatic tensioners.
That plus the safe guard against engine failure should the spring fail _or_ the screw ramp wear on the automatics. This can't happen with a manual tensioner.
~Jeffers
04-15-2006, 11:58 PM
#10
Member
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
Good Evening Jeffers
If Honda thought manual adjustment was the way forward or indeed an "improvement" they would have fitted this system as a mod to the bike. They would not have had to admit any liability for previous models either.
The worm and thread as i call them rarely fail, I have heard of them failing on rare occasions, probably because the spring has snapped thus releasing the pressure on the worm, allowing it to clatter back and forth ultimately it will fail! but it seems the spring is by far the main cause for concern within the CCT.
The worm and thread is really very strong, a 4 start thread prob hardened steel.
There is no data available from any reputable source including Honda to instruct owners who fit manual adjusters to the VTR on how to set a proper and correct cam chain tension. I appreciate what you say about fit it start bike slack it off until it rattles then tighten it until it stops rattling? But to be honest it all sounds a bit hap hazard to me.
Like you say at the beginning of your recent reply, springs calibrate a certain amount of tension to keep the cam chain taught enough to prevent it from rattlling, but not so much as it causes probs for everything else in the cam shaft drive train.
The spring is under constant tension strip one and try it, wind in the plunger then let it out against your thumb (Imagine your thumb is your cam chain) a little at a time, you will feel the pressure thats whats supposed to be in the SH not a NUT and BOLT! try the same test with a nut and bolt, then make a comment, on which is most suitable not which is the best.
Its more difficult trying to explain somthing simple to a witless wonder than it is trying to teach pigs to sing, why all the fuss? It's beyond me.
Spring is the best method, keep the machine as it should be and use common sense and good servicing, just dont sit and wait for the death rattle! its simpler and easier to change em. Its up to you thats what democracy is all about, now democracy?? that is a laugh?
Dave
stay safe Jeffers and all of you whatever you ride
Three kind of people in this world post your inventions??
1 Those that make things happen
2 Those that watch what happens
3 Those that wonder what happened.
If Honda thought manual adjustment was the way forward or indeed an "improvement" they would have fitted this system as a mod to the bike. They would not have had to admit any liability for previous models either.
The worm and thread as i call them rarely fail, I have heard of them failing on rare occasions, probably because the spring has snapped thus releasing the pressure on the worm, allowing it to clatter back and forth ultimately it will fail! but it seems the spring is by far the main cause for concern within the CCT.
The worm and thread is really very strong, a 4 start thread prob hardened steel.
There is no data available from any reputable source including Honda to instruct owners who fit manual adjusters to the VTR on how to set a proper and correct cam chain tension. I appreciate what you say about fit it start bike slack it off until it rattles then tighten it until it stops rattling? But to be honest it all sounds a bit hap hazard to me.
Like you say at the beginning of your recent reply, springs calibrate a certain amount of tension to keep the cam chain taught enough to prevent it from rattlling, but not so much as it causes probs for everything else in the cam shaft drive train.
The spring is under constant tension strip one and try it, wind in the plunger then let it out against your thumb (Imagine your thumb is your cam chain) a little at a time, you will feel the pressure thats whats supposed to be in the SH not a NUT and BOLT! try the same test with a nut and bolt, then make a comment, on which is most suitable not which is the best.
Its more difficult trying to explain somthing simple to a witless wonder than it is trying to teach pigs to sing, why all the fuss? It's beyond me.
Spring is the best method, keep the machine as it should be and use common sense and good servicing, just dont sit and wait for the death rattle! its simpler and easier to change em. Its up to you thats what democracy is all about, now democracy?? that is a laugh?
Dave
stay safe Jeffers and all of you whatever you ride
Three kind of people in this world post your inventions??
1 Those that make things happen
2 Those that watch what happens
3 Those that wonder what happened.
04-16-2006, 01:52 PM
#11
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nananimo, B.C.
Posts: 764
Re: CCT?
Honda wouldn't want customers having to fart around with manual adjustments so they made them automatic. Aren't manual CCT's what all the racing engines use?
Anyway there is constant pressure with the manual's. You set it yourself. My bike's happy.
Anyway there is constant pressure with the manual's. You set it yourself. My bike's happy.
04-17-2006, 12:58 AM
#12
Member
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
I dont know! But are you asking me or telling me they do??
You say Honda dont want customers and I use your choice of word "FARTING" around with manual adjusters so you think because of that reason alone they fitted the current spring operated adjustable tensioner?
So you in your infinite wisdom decided to go against the might of a Global company who have been making motorcycles since 1949? Wow i bow to your superior intellect, You must have found a type of metal that resists the attraction to contract and expand with heat, please ask Engineer Scott from the Enterprise to send me the details. Thanks a lot but trying to extract common sense from witless wonders, and trying to teach pigs to sing wastes to much of my time hahahah.
Good luck
Dave
You say Honda dont want customers and I use your choice of word "FARTING" around with manual adjusters so you think because of that reason alone they fitted the current spring operated adjustable tensioner?
So you in your infinite wisdom decided to go against the might of a Global company who have been making motorcycles since 1949? Wow i bow to your superior intellect, You must have found a type of metal that resists the attraction to contract and expand with heat, please ask Engineer Scott from the Enterprise to send me the details. Thanks a lot but trying to extract common sense from witless wonders, and trying to teach pigs to sing wastes to much of my time hahahah.
Good luck
Dave
04-17-2006, 08:35 AM
#13
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 200
Re: CCT?
So after reading the longest topic I have ever looked at. I am completely baffled. So I have decided to take a poll. If you have replaced you ACCTs with MCCTs or if you just replaced stock which ones have you found work best. I know enough about motors and bikes that I could do almost any work on my bike myself so since I value my time I would like to know what works best. I am nearing the critical mileage and I am starting to get some valve noise but nothing to worry about yet.
04-17-2006, 08:52 AM
#14
Member
Squid
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
At last someone with a BRAIN thank you God!
Any abnormal noise should be investigated with some vigour of course it should, if the noise is a problem related to your CCT then i simply offer an alternative to some of the others out there!
If you examine the CCT and find a problem, you must do something about it and quick. I think my springs are a cost effective viable easy to install option, its about which method is most appropriate for the machine. Springs ensure a constant tension on the chain they allow for wear in the guides and chain automatically. BUT it is a problem especially in the front cylinder due in my opinion partly down to poor lubrication. Springs are available from me, priced sensibly enough to allow you to change them at service points.
see ebay item number 8056388470
Thanks for your interest
All the best Dave
Any abnormal noise should be investigated with some vigour of course it should, if the noise is a problem related to your CCT then i simply offer an alternative to some of the others out there!
If you examine the CCT and find a problem, you must do something about it and quick. I think my springs are a cost effective viable easy to install option, its about which method is most appropriate for the machine. Springs ensure a constant tension on the chain they allow for wear in the guides and chain automatically. BUT it is a problem especially in the front cylinder due in my opinion partly down to poor lubrication. Springs are available from me, priced sensibly enough to allow you to change them at service points.
see ebay item number 8056388470
Thanks for your interest
All the best Dave
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