Honda, Please make more L-twins!
04-24-2009, 09:28 AM
#1
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Honda, Please make more L-twins!
Poking around yesterday, I stumbled on Honda's new VTR 250. It is very nice, and looks just like a Duc. "Monster" 695. Of course, the bike is sold only in Japan, and is just now going to Europe. None of this makes any sense to me. If I had to ride a 250, I would much rather have an L-twin than a P-twin, and the 250 Ninja is Kawasaki's biggest seller. I will buy a VTR-250 for my wife and for local transport if they become available.
Look, for years Honda wanted us to ride v-4s, a motor type which has a limited appeal. But Honda couldn't try enough variations of their V-4s, in sizes from 400 to 1,000 cc. Okay, but L-twins? Honda made two for their largest market (VTR and RVT) and gave up. Look at Suzuki- they tried several different sizes and designs of their L-twins, and found some designs and price points which sold. The latest is a "Gladius", the SV-650 motor in a new, naked combo (steel tube + cast pivot area) frame.
Anyway, since Honda, without doubt, keeps up with the SuperHawk Forum, and listens to my advice, here is what they should do:
Superhawk goes to 1200cc, gets Fuel Injection and upside-down forks from 1000rr. Update the fairing with sharper lines and add a second headlight. A better swing-arm shape, or even one-sided. With lugs for two different sizes of Honda accessory saddlebags, if desired. All the good qualities of the 98-05 bike but with the weak points updated. About $10,000
"Juniorhawk" will be 500 to 750cc, fuel injected and priced to make buying a Monster very hard. Like the SV-650, available clothed or naked. And the bags will fit either model, Junior or Super. About $6-8,000 This one has got to be good, there's a lot of competition.
And rounding out the line, the VTR-250. If they punched it out to 350, I can't see anyone choosing a Ninja 250 or Suzuki ex500 over an L-twin, if they get a chance to compare.
L-twins have a very pleasing character as motorcycle engines, and a long history of racing victories. Why, didn't Honda win a Superbike title with an L-twin? Why is Honda just abandoning this engine design?
Why are they leaving it to Suzuki, among the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers, to exploit the L-twin?
The TL-1000 didn't sell well, but Suzuki stuck with it and found a way to include L-twins in their line up. Why not Honda? If you ask me (go ahead, don't be shy) Honda should have dropped the Interceptor and continued with the Superhawk.
Look, for years Honda wanted us to ride v-4s, a motor type which has a limited appeal. But Honda couldn't try enough variations of their V-4s, in sizes from 400 to 1,000 cc. Okay, but L-twins? Honda made two for their largest market (VTR and RVT) and gave up. Look at Suzuki- they tried several different sizes and designs of their L-twins, and found some designs and price points which sold. The latest is a "Gladius", the SV-650 motor in a new, naked combo (steel tube + cast pivot area) frame.
Anyway, since Honda, without doubt, keeps up with the SuperHawk Forum, and listens to my advice, here is what they should do:
Superhawk goes to 1200cc, gets Fuel Injection and upside-down forks from 1000rr. Update the fairing with sharper lines and add a second headlight. A better swing-arm shape, or even one-sided. With lugs for two different sizes of Honda accessory saddlebags, if desired. All the good qualities of the 98-05 bike but with the weak points updated. About $10,000
"Juniorhawk" will be 500 to 750cc, fuel injected and priced to make buying a Monster very hard. Like the SV-650, available clothed or naked. And the bags will fit either model, Junior or Super. About $6-8,000 This one has got to be good, there's a lot of competition.
And rounding out the line, the VTR-250. If they punched it out to 350, I can't see anyone choosing a Ninja 250 or Suzuki ex500 over an L-twin, if they get a chance to compare.
L-twins have a very pleasing character as motorcycle engines, and a long history of racing victories. Why, didn't Honda win a Superbike title with an L-twin? Why is Honda just abandoning this engine design?
Why are they leaving it to Suzuki, among the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers, to exploit the L-twin?
The TL-1000 didn't sell well, but Suzuki stuck with it and found a way to include L-twins in their line up. Why not Honda? If you ask me (go ahead, don't be shy) Honda should have dropped the Interceptor and continued with the Superhawk.
04-24-2009, 10:03 AM
#2
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at 1200cc it would need a faired and unfaired version and could be the update/replacement for the rc51 also.
i would stick the junior at about 675cc and let it be real competition for the zuc.
the bottom i would leave at 250cc and import it as is, maybe try to beet the ninja on price. i would by one for the wife in a heartbeat. (and recomend it to my daughter when shes old enough)
i would stick the junior at about 675cc and let it be real competition for the zuc.
the bottom i would leave at 250cc and import it as is, maybe try to beet the ninja on price. i would by one for the wife in a heartbeat. (and recomend it to my daughter when shes old enough)
04-24-2009, 01:26 PM
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They should have a 1200 CC V-Twin Sport Touring bike, and a V-Strom style adventure bike (Varado anyone?)
They should have a 1000-1200 cc SuperSport V-Twin
They should have a 600-750 cc Naked and Sport V-Twin and Adventure bike (Wee-Strom)
They should bring the VTR250 over in Supermoto naked style and Sport (half fairing) style.
It would be a winner of a lineup. Currently Honda offers nothing but the CBR 600/1000 and VFR800/ST1300 for non-cruiser riders. They really need a bigger lineup.
If Suzuki can do it, and Kawaski can do it...even yamaha has more models than Honda.
WTF can't the worlds largest motorcycle company do it? Oh, yeah, they invested millions in R&D and marketing a watered down, shaft drive chopper (FURY). They are Running Stupid.
They should have a 1000-1200 cc SuperSport V-Twin
They should have a 600-750 cc Naked and Sport V-Twin and Adventure bike (Wee-Strom)
They should bring the VTR250 over in Supermoto naked style and Sport (half fairing) style.
It would be a winner of a lineup. Currently Honda offers nothing but the CBR 600/1000 and VFR800/ST1300 for non-cruiser riders. They really need a bigger lineup.
If Suzuki can do it, and Kawaski can do it...even yamaha has more models than Honda.
WTF can't the worlds largest motorcycle company do it? Oh, yeah, they invested millions in R&D and marketing a watered down, shaft drive chopper (FURY). They are Running Stupid.
04-24-2009, 03:40 PM
#7
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04-24-2009, 03:47 PM
#8
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http://www.motorcycledaily.com/15apr...nda_vtr250.htm
Only 29 hp though, same as Ninja 250, but maybe a better torque curve?
Only 29 hp though, same as Ninja 250, but maybe a better torque curve?
Last edited by CentralCoaster; 04-24-2009 at 03:55 PM.
04-24-2009, 04:08 PM
#10
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I don't know why Honda never brought the "new" VTR 250 over to the USA. They have been selling them in OZ since 2002 I think. I would think they would outsell the Rebel 250?
Honda did import it's predecessor The VTR 250 Interceptor here in the late 80s. It's pretty much the same engine (a 90 degree V-Twin), But it came in some pretty garish color schemes...
Honda did import it's predecessor The VTR 250 Interceptor here in the late 80s. It's pretty much the same engine (a 90 degree V-Twin), But it came in some pretty garish color schemes...
Last edited by Moto Man; 04-24-2009 at 04:11 PM.
04-24-2009, 05:10 PM
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Wow. Pink grips. That's criminal.
They don't all look as hideous as that one.
They were sold in 1988-1990. 88 has the funky front brake. I've been doing some research for the past hour. I feel as if I was locked in a bomb shelter for 10 years.
1990:
They don't all look as hideous as that one.
They were sold in 1988-1990. 88 has the funky front brake. I've been doing some research for the past hour. I feel as if I was locked in a bomb shelter for 10 years.
1990:
Last edited by CentralCoaster; 04-24-2009 at 05:14 PM.
04-26-2009, 12:11 PM
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That's a VTR 250? Wow!! Thanks for all the response, fellow Hawkers and thanks especially for posting the pictures!
The Hawk and RC-51 were such a great start. Why did Honda just abndon this proven layout?
The Hawk and RC-51 were such a great start. Why did Honda just abndon this proven layout?
04-26-2009, 12:15 PM
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<i>"I would think they would outsell the Rebel 250?"</i>
L-twins are more expensive to make, and the bike would be higher priced, but yes, they very well might.
Or maybe they could turn it into a "mini-cruiser" like the Rebel. Whenever I think of cruisers, I want to cry.
L-twins are more expensive to make, and the bike would be higher priced, but yes, they very well might.
Or maybe they could turn it into a "mini-cruiser" like the Rebel. Whenever I think of cruisers, I want to cry.
04-26-2009, 01:41 PM
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When the super hawk came out it made comparable power to the Aprilla's and Duc's of the same size at the time. I see no reason Honda can't update it and do the same now with a 600ish, updated 1000 and 1200 v-twins. They are proven popular markets and I see no reason Honda wouldn't be able to be competitive. They can run the 1000rr and the 1200 twin in superbike competition. I'd buy a new 1200 hawk over the Duc 1198 if it made comparable power.
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Last edited by Malice; 05-01-2011 at 07:34 AM.
04-27-2009, 12:41 PM
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I'd buy a new 1200 hawk over the Duc 1198 if it made comparable power.
I'd give away 20 horsepower to free myself from Duc maintenance and prices. And you could fix up your Honda real good with just half the price difference between a Hawk 1200 at say $10,000 and a standard 1198, which is $17,000.
"S" costs extra and "R" is, well, they still havent sold the 1098R at my local Duc dealers, and it's out of date, now. It's $40,000
But I think they should keep the Hawk a great road bike, and address it's weak points, and some aspects are really dated by now. Except for the fuel injection, they can do most of that with parts they already have.
But as far as I know, the only actual, real news about Honda L-twins is that the VTR-250 will be sold in Europe next year, not just Japan. Not the US, either.
I'd give away 20 horsepower to free myself from Duc maintenance and prices. And you could fix up your Honda real good with just half the price difference between a Hawk 1200 at say $10,000 and a standard 1198, which is $17,000.
"S" costs extra and "R" is, well, they still havent sold the 1098R at my local Duc dealers, and it's out of date, now. It's $40,000
But I think they should keep the Hawk a great road bike, and address it's weak points, and some aspects are really dated by now. Except for the fuel injection, they can do most of that with parts they already have.
But as far as I know, the only actual, real news about Honda L-twins is that the VTR-250 will be sold in Europe next year, not just Japan. Not the US, either.
04-27-2009, 12:56 PM
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"It would be a winner of a lineup. Currently Honda offers nothing but the CBR 600/1000 and VFR800/ST1300 for non-cruiser riders. They really need a bigger lineup."
In their defence, Honda (indeed all the Japanese builders) have tried to sell standards and practical motorcycles (you know, the type that are sales leaders in Europe) in North America but the appetite for poser-cycles by identity-starved Boomers has all but condemned anything this side of full-on supersports to commercial failure. The problem is not the availability of alternatives (have a look at the European sites of the Big Four) but the buying patterns of our fellow citizens.
In their defence, Honda (indeed all the Japanese builders) have tried to sell standards and practical motorcycles (you know, the type that are sales leaders in Europe) in North America but the appetite for poser-cycles by identity-starved Boomers has all but condemned anything this side of full-on supersports to commercial failure. The problem is not the availability of alternatives (have a look at the European sites of the Big Four) but the buying patterns of our fellow citizens.
04-27-2009, 04:09 PM
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Unfortunately for us all the guy running the show at American Honda can barely ride a motorcycle let alone know a good bike from bad. I like to refer to him as Mr PC800. He's also the guy who brought us the Rune (s/b Ruin), the EV whatever the F it is, and of course now the chopped piece of crap (I can't or won't think of it's name). They have cruisers galore because their focus is on the poser market. Their argument is always the same "it won't sell over here" well if you don't advertise it and market it and overprice it when you do, of course it won't sell. It becomes self fulfilling prophecy.
Let me give you a clear example, I'm in the market for a standard and I'm seeing some ad's for the Honda 919 at a fair price (marked down by Honda to the dealer) but then I think what do the other guys have and what are the features. Well kawasaki, Yamaha and Triumph all have a standard literbikes in the same range but with USD Forks, better brakes, and in the case of Yamaha aftermarket goodies galore like exhausts, retro bodywork, work stands,etc.
Why Honda can't see fit to put on a decent front fork and brakes is absolutely beyond me and then to price it the same or higher than the competition truly becomes an act of stupidity.
They really should bring an updated SH along, I think if it had a USD fork, decent brakes and FI they could move some units, hell maybe do a Supersport and a standard (for us older guys)..oh well that guy thinks he knows it all always did..too bad for Honda and for us.
Let me give you a clear example, I'm in the market for a standard and I'm seeing some ad's for the Honda 919 at a fair price (marked down by Honda to the dealer) but then I think what do the other guys have and what are the features. Well kawasaki, Yamaha and Triumph all have a standard literbikes in the same range but with USD Forks, better brakes, and in the case of Yamaha aftermarket goodies galore like exhausts, retro bodywork, work stands,etc.
Why Honda can't see fit to put on a decent front fork and brakes is absolutely beyond me and then to price it the same or higher than the competition truly becomes an act of stupidity.
They really should bring an updated SH along, I think if it had a USD fork, decent brakes and FI they could move some units, hell maybe do a Supersport and a standard (for us older guys)..oh well that guy thinks he knows it all always did..too bad for Honda and for us.
Last edited by HRCA#1; 04-27-2009 at 04:11 PM.
04-27-2009, 09:45 PM
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Last edited by Malice; 05-01-2011 at 07:35 AM.
04-28-2009, 01:49 AM
#21
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The VTR is infact an 90 degree V-twin or an L-twin... At 90 degrees it automatically balances out itself in some ways that the "real" V-twins doesn't (Aprilia at 65 deg and so on...)
04-28-2009, 08:26 AM
#22
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