Whats The Deal With The CCT'S
 

Ok so I just bought a mint 2002 SH... She has 3100 miles on her and doesnt even look like its been ridden... Im in the process of tuning her up and putting on an exhaust and I keep seeing the CCT problem pop up in threads... Whats the problem with the stock ones? Is there a set amount of miles where they become unreliable? what brand would you suggest for the SH and is it really needed?

cool thanks for the info... and WOW man 60K and she is still running strong thats sweet

There isn't an issue with the CCT's per see... It's an "issue" with V-twins... Or rather a resulting possible failure due to the basic design, not a flaw or issue really...

On an inline engine, there is one cam shaft for all cylinders, and often also one cam chain and tensioner... If the CCT fails, the other cylinders keep it going, keeping the chain from going slack and keeping things timed... In a V-twin there is one shaft and one CCT per cylinder... When the CCT fails you loose timing and the cylinder fails, it's that simple, nothing else keeping the chain from jumping a tooth ot two...

Becuase of that, it's more important to do preventive maintainance, since a "small" failure of the CCT usually results in an expensive repair...

If you think that's sweet check with 8451Hawk he's pushing 100K! As far as the cct's he's still using OEM like VTRSurfer.

^ Although 8542Hawk replaces his at the Honda recommended intervals, not at 60K, haha!

Well since I was brought up............ ;)

The bike is still running strong. I swapped the first set of CCTs at around 50K and at the Honda recommended 30K after that.

So yes I am on my third set of CCTs.

Manual or auto either will work fine. Both have positives and negatives associated with their use.

I always recommend replacing them on a new to you SH as you don't know their history.
Unless they are manual units and then you should check to see how they are set and installed.

Bikes are not cars... I always chuckle when people think a high mileage bike is like something to behold. There are plenty of very old bikes of all makes and models running strong out there.

When I retired my '89 Transalp, it had over 180,000 on the odo. The motor was fine and sellable even then. :)

After the event we often have folk joining the Uk VTR forum wondering why their engines has inexplicably grenaded into a bag of nails. The lucky ones join before and have a chance of applying foresight and taking measures to prevent it from occurring.

www.vtr1000.org • View topic - Busted Cam chain blown valves into cylinder...

when I let my 77 BMW R100 go it had about 180K miles on it. I had the bike for 12 years, bought it with 32k on it. Changed the oil religiously every 3k. Tear down at about 75k for head service showed the cylinders still within factory spec. One exhaust valve had a little chip out of it. Rebuilt top end, honed cylinders and the bike ran flawlessly until I sold it. For me the moral of the story is maintenance. Regular service and ride it like you stole it! I look forward to the same performance from my 02 VTR.

well I very anal about my bikes and always change everything before it really needs done... being as it only has 3K miles I will just change them at hondas suggested time or a little before... I had a APE CCT on my last CBR and it was a pain in the ass to mess with... So im going to just stick with the stock ones for now...

Highly recommended that you buy and install new stock/OEM ones if you're going this route. Mileage doesn't necessarily correlate to CCT failure, and you don't know how the bike has been treated before you got it. You're more than likely fine waiting to change them, but you could also grenade your motor because you trusted a bike that is 10 years old to function like it was new. In other words, for a $120 fix you could prevent $1000 in head damage or worse. People have had the cct's go before 4k before. It's a gamble of sorts... you're probably fine, but you've been warned ;)

FWIW you only have to "mess" with a manual CCT once, I never found it to be a pain in the ass other than getting the install correct... if you mean this part then you have a valid point.

The people that run them for a long time have owned the bike since new or near new, so know how it has been treated. The could be a couple other factors involved, but that's enough for one post, lol!

Most bikes don't have enough slack in the chain to skip teeth even if the tensioner goes. So it's not as big of deal if tensioners do break. Also most all inlines' cams run multiple cylinders so they don't have as much jerkyness to them as generally when one lobe is being pushed by a valve closing another valve on the same cam another lobe pushing one open so they better balance out. With ours each cam is operating one cylinder so it gets a good pull when opening the valve but when the valve closes it tries to snap the cam forward. The only thing stopping this is the CCT. So it gets a lot more jerking back and forth making it more prone to failure. Couple that with a chain that's got enough slack in it to be able to jump teeth on teh cam and you have a recipe for disaster.

So if you have 10yr old tires on the bike would you leave them on if they still looked good?

To change them or not is up to you but the odds are good that you will have a failure.

I see your points but wouldnt a tire and a cct be a totally diffrent thing... I meen after so long with no use yes the tires dry rot and the fork seals go bad but a cct going bad from no use whats the chances? I of course value the advice and all you guys have a lot more experience with this bike than me... So in your opinions I should change them now before riding season starts? Also installing the stock ones is just as simple and unbolting them and bolting some new ones in correct?

Oh and i found a set of 2 on this website for $64.25... so ill need two number 4's and two gaskets witch are number 5's is that right? http://www.motosport.com/oem-parts/H...-%2B-TENSIONER

First it's $64 ea for the tensioners on that site, not a set.

Comparing them to tires is applicable in that they are a wear item that relies on a spring to maintain tension.

That spring has sat in one position under tension for most of the last 10 yrs.
Now you want it to start moving and take the load of the cam chain?

It can and will do it for a little while, then normally the spring breaks and you're FUBARed....

Now you might get lucky and have them work fine, just like you might get lucky and have 10yr old tires work just fine, but is it really worth the risk?

It is much cheaper to do it now IMHO.

No it is not just a quick unbolt them and slap in the new one but it is not all that hard either.

There is a write up on how to change them..... search is your friend.

Though personally I always remove the front valve cover. Both to make sure everything is right in the front head and I also check the valve while I'm in there.

$123.40 Ronayers.com 2 of all three parts you need.

LIFTER, TENSIONER (14520-MBB-013)2x$59.11 $118.21
WASHER (6MM) (90442-397-000) 2X $1.01 $2.01
GSKT, TENSIONER HOLE (14523-MAL-A00) 2X $1.59 $3.17
Sub Total: $123.40

Replacing the unknown condition, unknown used service part which has both a high probability of failure and significant risk of major damage if it does fail is just good preventative maintenance.

The choice on replacing those CCT's with another OEM set, or Manual set is the users for reasons that can read out here.

Ok well it looks like ill be replacing them just to be safe

Also let me ask should I go with stock replacements or manual ape ccts

YES :D

My 98 was purchased from it's second owner in 2005, had 3,600 miles.
I installed APE Manual CCT's.

21,000 miles later over 7 years with the tach running up to, at times over and most times close to redline I have had no need to adjust the MCCT's Except once, but that was only due to having the head off to fix a coolant leak.

If there is any doubt in the competence and experience of the Tech (user) installing the CCT's, go with Autos, follow the install procedures and forget um for 15~20k miles, then repeat the replacement procedure.

If installed poorly, the MCCTs can do more harm then good (this is true of a ACCT as well, but your only talking the cam timing)

+1

Once installed correctly, MCCT's will not break and you won't ever need to replace them. Installing them is a bit more involved.

Autos you will have to replace again at some point (if you plan on using the bike for awhile). $120 every 20k miles isn't really that expensive everything considered.

they are factory units and the bike was owned by a 50 year old guy... The bike only has 3102 miles on it... I took it to honda today to have an inspection done on it and they thought I was retarted asking to replace them... The tech said it sounded good and they were fine and not to worry about it... By the way got my frame sliders, smoked screen, exhaust in the mail today... also bought some oil, filter, brake fluid and a gallon of engine ice to replace the 10 year old coolant...

And how many SuperHawks has this tech worked on or around?

I've been around them since '97 but it's all good.

Sorry you felt retarded....bet you'll feel even more retarded if the CCT lets go but again it's all good.

Good luck with your bike.

It's both opinion and actual observation.

The reality is, unless you did a metallurgic inspection on your old ones, you really have no idea what there condition was, you just know they had not failed yet.. Which is good and a valid observation.

It has been observed and reported many, many times, ACCT's failing causing minor damage to massive engine destruction.

Based on the many reports of ACCT failure, I do not believe we know why some fail in so few miles, a larger amount fail in the 18-20k range, and some make it to 67,285 miles with no indication of anything wrong with them.

That unknown failure point is the driving fact in recommending replacement with a manual CCT of which the only known failure point, is the installation.

As VTRsurfer said.. that... is just my opinion based on my observations and experience.

:horse: All Done now :D

I do value all of your opinions and again I know you all know a lot more about this bike than i do... And im very anal about keeping my bike in perfect shape... The guy who looked at my bike had been a honda tech for 20 years and owned a 98 SH... He just basically said that yes they go out by how the bike was ridden but in his opinion lack of use would not make them go bad... I had the bike inspected and 2 or 3 tech's there made comments like " Cleanest 02 hawk they have ever seen"... It checked out good so I feel good about it... I take care of my bikes and will be sure to keep an eye on them and again thanks for all the info guys

Did they take the CCTS out and check the springs for corrosion?

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/downlo...1335038366.jpg

If he's so confident in the standard OEM CCTS will he offer parts & labour warranty to fix the engine if on the 'off-chance' they happen to fail.

www.vtr1000.org • View topic - Camchain tensioner failure!!!

www.vtr1000.org • View topic - No longer a virgin.

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...-failed-28786/

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...s-25527/page2/

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ck-boom-26943/ ('04 with 7800 miles)

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...84/#post238766

That spells out the situation pretty well.
To give you an idea of how weak the spring within the tensioner is,because it all boils down to the spring that causes the failure......I had a bike in with a front cylinder failure. Tensioners had been replaced 12 months prior but the guy that fitted them skimped on gaskets and instead used silicon sealer(a pretty messy job too). There was moisture getting in and around the internals and because of the angle the front cylinder sits at there was very little oil getting up at it,spring failed and cylinder went in a big way,bits of guide dropping into the bore etc. 12 months worth of very slow rot on the spring was enough for it to fail,so if you leave a bike standing in the wrong conditions Im sure it's enough to cause a failure.

If your unsure,change them,set the cams to avoid your timing jumping out,and change the gaskets while your in there

Big +1 on this. You only have to read a couple of stories of unexpected failures ("I thought they'd be fine and replace them next summer!") to realize that you're still gambling somewhat without knowing the odds. There are plenty of superhawks out there with no failures, but being on a forum where people come to look for advice, CCT failures are a common enough occurence that it's right at the very top of things to know about the bike if you are new to it that comes up. What you do with the info is totally up to you...

I'll second replacing the CCT's since I bought the my superhawk and there was slight noise from the cam chain and within two weeks the noise was worse. I parked it at that point and ordered manual tensioners. Once I replaced them it was better than when I bought it perfectly smooth no noise. I'll also say to pay close attention to torquing the two mounting bolts for each tensioner and make sure to loctite them. I didn't and two days after installing the tensioners I had the front assembly back out and as a result I bent the valves.

ADHD Version: Replace tensioners, torque bolts properly and remember the loctite!