Oil Pan Gasket?
 

Hey guys, I did a quick search but couldnt find anything.

When I got my bike, the oil pan was in disarray and was filled with soot and debris and the like. (I was told the bike had a spun bearing but the filter had not picked up any metal shavings...) Anyways, I am putting everything back together to get a better idea of just what might be wrong with it and my question is this...

With the oil pan off, exposing the pump and underside of the engine and all, is there a gasket that is supposed to go between the pan and the engine itself? I looked at all the microfiches and couldnt find anything labeled as one except on ronayers.com it looks like it might be labeled F-30 http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/200_03...0&parent=13160
However there is nothing there labeled as such. I know it had to have had something because there is black rubber residue on it.

Is there anything else I could use besides an entire gasket? Some sort of sealant that wouldnt harm the oil?

Also my oil strainer looks like Benji went to the beach during the Valdez spill. And the clothlike filter is deteriorating bad. Can I just tear that out and leave it as is with just a screen? Or is there something else I can put in there as well?

Thanks

Yikes. It doesn't sound good.

There is no gasket for the oil pan. The best thing to use is called Hondabond. Yamaha has something similar called Yamabond. I don't know if there's Kawabond or Zukibond. Put a very thin layer on the sealing face and torque it down. Both faces should be very clean and free of oil. The ghetto way to do it is with a silicone rubber type sealer. People put too much on and it ends up in the oil pickup strainer. Hondabond is a light grey color.

There is no clothlike filter on the oil pickup. Just a steel screen. It needs to be there to stop all of the stuff it sounds like it stopped from going through the oil pump. You won't have access to the oil pump itself from the bottom.

All the stuff in the pickup could very well be the cause of the spun bearing.

Holy crap, so you are telling me there is no sponge like filter thats in the boot part of the strainer???? WOW then yea that definitely has to be where lies the problems. It seriously looks like there is a sponge inside the boot before it gets to the screen you can see down the tube. Ill post a pic later to make sure you guys know what I am talking about...

the aftermarket has finally caught up and is offering GreyBond import gasket sealer. it's not RTV. I found it at a local Bennett auto parts but haven't seen it anywhere else yet.

Yeah the first time I pulled my pan I was surprised too but there's no gasket. Like stated used Hondabond or Hondabond HT. If your motorcycle dealer doesn't have it try either the Honda or Acura dealer (got mine at the Acura dealer). It was like 18.00 for a tube, but it works like a CHAMP, and I've used it for a bunch of other stuff too and it always worked perfect.

Yikes it is.

Should be nothing over that steel mesh in your pickup. I have no idea what that could be, it has me baffled. Is it material or just sludge I wonder. Water (coolant maybe) in the oil will give you some nice goop, if that was the case.

As for re-assembly, wax and grease remover used in painting is a good way of cleaning the surfaces to the joined. I used an aftermarket sealant made by Loctite or Du Pont I think, oil & fuel resistant, temp resistant gasket maker designed for engines. Can't do better than that. We can buy this stuff over here in any auto parts store, so you should be able to get some in the US, no worries. They make different types, so just make sure you get the right one.

I had a spun big end conrod bearing in my engine too when I bought it. It was bad enough that I had to buy a new crank. I would be considering trying to have a look at things while you had the sump off. I can't remember if this is feasable with the engine upside down or not. Otherwise it is an engine out job by the sounds of it.

Sounds like a plan, I will definitely prep the sealing area and go and check for some ZukiBond (Only a Suzuki dealer here but they have to have something). Ive posted a link of some pics of the boot and some of the crap that came off of the screen. If there is seriously not supposed to anything over that mesh, then I am at a loss for words as to where this stuff came from and what the heck it is!! It has chunks of debris or dirt which could have come from being off the bike for a while (the pan looked to be about the same way, but the underside of the engine was really clean!)

The stuff is PACKED in there, and I mean like I had to work at it to tear it out and it is about 1/4" thick and feels like a sponge. Check out the pics, they speak for themselves, if that crap wasnt supposed to be there, then I wouldnt doubt that the engine was starved for oil even when there was plenty in there!

http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p...it/VTR%20Pics/

Wow. You know what that is? It looks suspiciously like an oil filter that came apart and put the entire filter element in your pickup.

Yup, that'll cause some engine damage alright!

When you scrape the seal surface use something that wouldn't damage the aluminum. I use a piece of coper pipe I hammered and filed to make a scraper. You can buy plastic ones but I didn't like the way they worked. The filter looks like if failed. Was it an OEM Honda or after market? For the gasket you can use regular automotive RTV silicone. "time in the tube" $5.00

Good Luck

That is a fugly sight:(
My theories. Someone else has been inside the motor before and left a rag or papertowel like a surgeon accidently leaving a sponge inside a patient. Or, someone added sawdust or something similar to quiet a problem motor/transmission prior to passing the bike off to an unsuspecting buyer.

Yea I know exactly what you mean about leaving "extras" inside a patient/engine. It really doesnt surprise me at all though. I would have been quite pissed off had I bought the bike in running condition, but I got a great deal on it (and it wasnt stolen!) and had convinced myself that the bike at the least needed a completely different engine. So with that factored into the equation already, I still went through with it. Its just my buddy gave me a glimmer of hope with him thinking there might not have been anything wrong with the engine so much, just the gunked up carbs (to which I bought slightly used ones) ruined spark plugs (to which I replaced) to that I might be able to clean up everything and run it how it is without the new engine. So I am just waiting on the carbs to come in, along with a few bolts (that I broke :-x ) to come in before completely putting it back together and seeing if it can run alright as is! If not, more fun in tearing it back down and getting a new engine.

I am just glad that I can start assessing the problem areas PRIOR to rebuilding!

I used some plastic forks to dig all of the crap out of the boot and pulled out probably about 1/4lb of shiite!! Stuck it all in a ziploc to see if maybe I could sue the oil filter company, and checked it out and surprisingly there were only 2 1mm x 1mm metal shavings in there, the rest was that filler element and chunks of oil crud...

It can't be the oil filter, unless it passed through the bearing clearances on the way back to the pan. It was either left there, put there or the bike was crashed and scooped up a bunch of dirt through a broken side case.

The sawdust theory is a good one. An old trick I hadn't heard of in a while.

I wouldn't bother putting it back together. You need to tear that engine down.

I have seen the same thing in a car engine. the builder left a rag in the valley and mounted the intake. after about 200 miles it started clacking so I took off the intake since that was the last thing done on the engine and saw several rags so out came the engine. I put new bearings thru out motor and then it was good to go, but I shut the motor off so I was lucky.

What all should I be looking for while tearing the engine down? The insides look to be pristine and not have any of that crap that was stuck in the screen anywhere. The underside looks equally as good.

I had put the tranny in gear and tried turning the drive sprocket over and it turns good, showing compression but it feels a little tight in one area more than the rest. I didnt know if that was the risers or not...

Good call RC! I forgot about that. All oil systems are configured in the following order: Sump, pump, strainer (filter), cooler, load, and back to the sump. Even Naval propulsion works the same, 'cept on a much bigger scale. :cool:

I wouldn't tear it down if were looking at the same problem. If you believe most of that material was stopped before it circulated (and judging from the pic, it seems that way) I say run the bad boy once you get everything cleaned and buttoned up. If that bike had been run before with that material inside I doubt that it will be a factor now unless a big chunk of sponge/paper cholesterol busts free and gives the bike an anuerysm:D From all the drama I've read on this sight and all the stuff these guys put the SH through, the engine on this bike is pretty robust.

Yea that is what I am hoping for. The screen on the boot is dented in places, but is intact all the way around and I am pretty sure nothing bigger than the screen holes was able to penetrate into the engine. I'll be putting the whole thing back together and fire her up after this next week (hella busy). From there, I'll see if I will tear it back down and have another go at it, or, if itll be in good enough shape to run on! Ill keep yall posted.

You'll probably be fine. My thoughts were:
1) The previous owner said he thought it spun a bearing.
2) With that much crap in the strainer, I wonder how much passed through it? If the oil filter became plugged, the relief valve opened and now the stuff is in the bearing inlets.

I am thinking the same RC. Some of the oil galleries are VERY small in the VTR. Some of that stuff would have blocked some of them for sure I reckon. That means stuffed bearings. Your photos indicate the engine is out of the bike already. As the hard work is already done, I would be stripping it down and rebuilding it.

One reason for this is that you may have bearing damage that an initial fire up will not reveal. The twin is a noisy engine even when new, my Suziki twin is the same. You could have damaged bearings and not know it for a while until it dies, and then you will need to take the engine out again. Do it now I think.

When I bought my bike, it was a rebuilder, bought at the right price just like yours. The owner was a bike mechanic who was moving interstate and didn't have time to finish all his projects, so they were up for sale. He told me about the main bearing noise, and carefully pointed the noise out to me. It wasn't easy to pick, and you could only hear it on start up. After a few seconds it stopped. So I figured it couldn't be too bad then.

After I stripped it down the crank was so badly damaged it had to be replaced. A mate of mine that works as an engine reconditioner said a few choice words when he saw it, it was totally stuffed. How it ran I'll never know.

You could have stuffed bearings, and you might not hear any noises.

One more thought:
The oil pump has two sections.
The main section pumps oil through the filter to the engine for lubrication. The other section runs a kidney loop to the oil cooler. So the cooling loop has no filtration. Make sure you backflush the oil cooler, because it is surely plugged with that stuff.

Thanks RC,
I actually just noticed that last night while thoroughly cleaning out the pan for like the third time and seeing how the oil cooler hooks up without the filtration. I will try to jimmy rig someting to flush that system as well.

Shayne, if I were to tear the engine part as is to start a rebuild perhaps, what gaskets or parts should I go ahead and buy? What all did you have to do when you rebuilt yours? Is there a kit that I can pick up with everything together? I tried looking but couldnt find anything but I didnt look too hard...

Are you pretty comfortable with the idea of doing a rebuild?
Here's a partial parts list. I have part numbers at home. I don't think a dealer has any way of specifiying a rebuild kit. Just individual P/Ns.

-Factory Service manual
-Head Gaskets
-Side cover gaskets R&L
-Connecting rod bolts. They're not reusable.
-Main and rod bearings. You need to have the engine apart to identify replacement bearings. The service manual explains this.
-countershaft seal
-shift shaft seal
-clutch rod seal
-assembly lube
-Hondabond
-might as well put rings in. I can explain how to deglaze the cylinders for new rings.
I have a good set of pistons you can have if you need them.

I'm sure there are others. Read the manual before you start.
You'll need a flywheel puller. Buy it with the money you save doing the engine work. The frame locknut tools are handy as well.

There are a few of us here who can answer questions as they come up. There are some easy tricks to get around some of the special tools. Buy a bunch of plastic containers and keep the systems and fasteners clean and organized -very important to be clean and organized!

flush all of the oil ports. Electrical contact cleaner works well for that.
lubricate all of the fasteners before you torque them.
Take your time and be patient.
I'm sure I missed some things.

I did leave out all of the inspection and measurement. You can tell a lot by looking at the bearings as you remove them and checking bearing clearances with Plastigage as you disassemble. Look at the wear pattern on the rod bearings. Is it even? is it more on one side than the other? are the bearings scored? Make sure you remove the carbon ring at the top of the cylinders before pushing the pistons out. After you take the pistons and rods out, with the main bearing caps (lower case half) still in place and torqued down, rotate the crank by hand. Does it rotate smoothly? do the same visual on the main bearings. If the wear pattern is uneven or scored you will want to measure the crank journals and the main and rod bearing bores. You should measure them anyway, but the visual inspection will tell you a lot. Same goes for the cam bearings. The second cam bearings (farthest from the timing chain) and the rod bearings get lubed through the cam and crankshaft. If the gunk got through, it's also inside the shafts and will be very difficult to remove.
enough for now. there's more!

Sorry for the late reply, but I only get on here once a week. RC has done it all before though, so he can point you in the right direction.

I bought a full gasket kit, which supplied a lot of wat you need without buying individual parts. Too long ago for me to tell you what was in there, but Honda should be able to sort you out there.

No point going over what RC has already said, so I shall just add a few points that stuck in my memory from my rebuild last year.

Check the crank end float as well. Mine was no good, so I had a machine shop make up a thrust washer to bring the tolerance back. Much cheaper than buying new cases.

Watch your conrod bearings carefully on installation. The oil holes in them are a different size for each rod. On one conrod the bearing hole is smaller than the oil hole in the rod. This is done on purpose to equalise pressure to each rod, as they are both fed from the same oil gallery in the crank. Don't mix them up.

Both conrods face the same way, which is to the rear I think, so the oil feeds are both hitting the rear side of each cylinder. You would think that they would both face in or out, and mirror each other, but they don't.

Watch that flywheel when it comes off!!! They can come off with a bang.

There will be lots of stuff that comes up as you go along. RC will be able to tell you most of what you know, but if you can be patient I will get to you eventually, and may be able to assist as well.

I did a full engine rebuild, including gearbox, so I will remember most of it, hopefully!

Good points Shayne. It's the main bearings that have two different oil port sizes.

Man that sure sounds like a loooooooooot of work! But I dont mind it, asa long as I know what I am looking for. I decided to go ahead and clean everything out and just reconstruct the whole thing and see what she does. I am stuck at this last point waiting on a booster joint (looks like a nipple) that I broke before hand. once that is here, and my stands, Ill be able to have everything together and run it as is to better assess the situation, and with everything flushed and not full of random things, it should be better to determine the problem. I just got too impatient having everything laying around without knowing exactly what I was going to do with it.

It should be all together by this weekend if ronayers will get off his ass and send me the parts I need!

Ill keep yall posted on the progress

It is a lot of work for a back yard job, and takes some time to do properly. If I was doing another motor I could do it in half the time, but the first time you do anything takes time stuffing around with stuff you don't know, like those conrod big end bearings. I spent a lot of time on those as I thought I had incorrect parts. Next time would be easy.

The best advice I could give you would be to NOT work to a time frame. Don't try to do things in a weekend or two. When it is done, then it will be done, and if you start to get frustrated or start working too fast, close the shed up and go back to it another day. More haste, less speed, as they say. Take your time.

I have no mecahnical training at all, but I have an interest, and time to do things properly. It will be very rewarding if you get things right. So take your time, and make sure it is right.

Then it will be all sweet!!

Yea I know what you mean when you say it takes time, but doing it again will take ya about half the time. It took me probably a good 20 hours to take my bike apart down to the bare bones, then probably 8 to put it back together, about 5 of those hours were trying to figure where in the hell all these damn hoses came from and where in the hell they go to! But Ive got everything on and in for the most part, except for the airbox (had to buy a new because mine was gutted for some reason) and a $3 booster joint bolt that has taken ronayers about a week and a half just to find! I still dont have it yet! But if I get it tomorrow, it should be ready to go Monday or Teusday Im hopin.

I had a question though, to this whole engine rebuild thing, I know it would take some patience and a lot of time to do right, but how much did everything ending up costing you? Monetarily, not time wise...

Good question, and one I don't have the answer for at the moment. When I did my rebuild I did everything on the bike over a period of two years. You name it, I have had it apart, engine, gearbox, suspension brakes, polishing, paint, the whole works. I have receipts for everything, but I decided I would never add them up. It wasn't about the money.

In regards to the engine particularly, there is a bearing on the output shaft that is integral with the shaft and cannot be changed, so I left it. Every other bearing, seal, and bush has been changed. I did everything I could remove. So my receipts would add up to a lot more than yours would anyway, and be in Australian dollars.

I could dig a few out and add them up for you, but you would be better off with getting prices from a US seller, they would be more indicative of your costs.

heres a motor
 

heres a motor for cheap its only at 43 bucks right now ebay#190081533587