Manual vs. auto cct
 

My front cct is rattling and clacking, time to change them both out. I have a question though before I start the process.

I have ~16K on the OD, the OEM cct's have lasted this long. Should I stay with the OEM for replacement or pick up the APE cct?

If I pick up the APE, do I half to go in there every couple of thousand miles and adjust the tention?

It seams to me that the OEM cct would work just fine, no adjustment and seams to last quite a while. Not unless I'm missing the obvious...

What are the benifits of using manual over automatic?

Thanks for the help!
-Chuck

Oh.. btw, thanks calitoz for the awsome cct write up!
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ead.php?t=5510

Automatic: easy, self maintaining. But, early ones in particular, had some failures of the mechanism resulting in catastrophic engine damage. Not clear how many, not clear at what mileage this occurs. Later ones supposedly improved on this failure. There are no hard numbers on failure rates.

Manual: As fail safe as possible if properly maintained. Not a huge time committment but if you aren't the type to do your own maintenance, probably be considered a PAI because a little hassle to get to them.

Personally after talking to a reputable tuner of these engines, I replaced mine with updated automatic units when I modified a motor I'm using now. I don't put super high mileage on bikes. You'll get lots of opinions here - some owners have had failures with big expense for repairs so those stick out in peoples minds.

To me the manual tensioners are a no brainer because they won't fail. Adjusting them, which is seldom if ever necessary, is not a big deal, but I do all my own maintenance.

I'll probley end up getting the manual tensioner. Need to do a little research first though.

Thanks for the input.

I thought that I wouldn't be able to get access to the front tensioner to adjust it with the bike all together (the rear is easy to get to) but I have found that, although a bit tight, its still doable to adjust the front as long as you squeeze a wrench underneath that coolant hose onto the locknut, and compress the hose a little bit...voila! you can get the larger wrench on the end of the tensioner. Besides, after setting initial tension on the manual CCT, it only requires minute adjustments, so the limited access isn't that big of a deal.

-R

Yesterday I just heard about 2 engines blown to pices because manual tensioners were ignored and not adjusted. Both were SS race engines so wear is probably higher but anyway, don't neglect it. I won't for sure.

When were the CCT's updated? I have a 2000 SH and it has 50K miles on it.. I am not the original owner, so I don't know if they have been replaced yet or not. Should I go ahead and replace them? I don't hear any rattle from the engine, but it does have a loudish whine.

With 50k, I'd say either your bike was built with them or the previous owner updated them. I went through 3 CCTs on the rear (all warrantied/ dealer installed as the first went within the first 12 mos) before giving up on the dealer and installing the APEs - all within the first 12k miles on my 2000. I now have almost 19k and no more problems (except the whine).

I never knew about the updated Honda CCTs until after I installed the APEs (before I found this place), but I would have done it anyway. +1 on Killer's post.

A different story altogether. Of course they shouldn't be neglected, but there are so many other factors involved in race engines that it's an apples to oranges comparison. I have heard of engines being ruined by overpressurized hydraulic tensioners as well.

I bet neither engine was a Super Hawk.

I've had the APEs on my bike for about 5 years and 20000 miles. I've yet to adjust them, however I have the rear leaking past the o-ring. To replace the o-ring I believe you have to remove the tensioner and I'm not looking forward to that....so I've ignored it and wiped up the occasional drop. Keeps the shock linkage lubed anyway. :mrgreen: So that's something else to consider over the long-term.

Ive got automatic cct's (i have had the rear fail before now so i'm real paronoid) but mine are slightly different.

A mate of mine has come up with these

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/199/dsc01931nc0.jpg
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6143/dsc01938tw2.jpg
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5164/dsc01939eu5.jpg

You take an m4 bolt (the same size as the one thats in your cct drill the centre out tap it to take the longer bolt with the 2 lock nuts on.

The long bolt you grind the end to a flat edge abit like a flat head screw driver.

FITTING

All you do is take the little bolt out your cct (no need to remove cct)

then the m4 thats drilled along with the (flat head bolt shall we say) push the flat head bolt into the housing of the cct into the little slot inside,hold the flat head bolt with a spanner and then botl in the m4 bolt making sure the flat head long bolt does not turn.

Once the m4 bolt is bolted down into the cct then tighten the 2 locknuts up as shown in picture.

N.B remember the cct in pic is only removed for illustration.

The purpose of the long flat head bolt is it goes into the slot or housing in the cct, the m4 bolts up then, 2 lock nuts bolt down, if the cct spring breaks the cct can not back off because of the the long flat head bolt which means no expensive engine damage.

The rear one is the longer bolt in pic and the small the front.

The rear cct needs some gasket sealer on the threads to stop the oil leeking out and the fronts no problem as its vertical and hardly gets oil anyway.

My mate has these fitted to both his vtr's yeah he has 2 one for summer one for winter:) :) and both have done extensive mileage without any problems.

When i store mine for winter i usually take the bolt out the front cct and drop oil down anyway as a precaution.

Also it might be worth taking the modded bolts out once a year say or sevice intervals to see if the tensioner has moved any so you can adjust the bolts accordingly.

My mate who made em is a mechanic with a very clever idea far too clever for me to come up with but i can tell you this my paranoia has gone now regarding cct failure.

Alan

CCT's
 

I replaced the stock CCT's with APE's as a precaution. Noticed another difference. While I was turning engine over with wrench as per manual to get top dead centers for both cylinders...Motor felt stiff and tight..had spark plugs out. After installing APE's noticed engine spun over much easier. Motor had about 4500 miles on it at the time. Makes me think the stock CCT's were really tight..too tight perhaps..creating friction on the cam chain...Picked up 20 hp...kidding of course but it did seem snappier when fired up...

Safe engine...a little bling.. and a free spinning engine..all good

Dave:D

Is there a blow by blow instruction on this mod??? IE with pictures, as some of us, well ok me, are not the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to replacing parts like this....

@Alan,

How do you know how far down to put in the smaller bolt that you filed to a "screwdriver"?

It will only go as far as the housing will allow,just into the slot.

If you take the bolt out your cct you will be able to see the slot,
the filed bolt just sits in there, then you hold with a spanner, then tighten the m4 bolt in place of your original bolt, then tighten the 2 lock nuts down.

If the cct spring breaks which is what causes cct failure, the housing cannot back off because of the filed bolt holding it down coupled with the 2 locknuts.

There is also another mod you could do which is abit more difficult which i know someone has done but you need to remove the cct with this version and dismantle it.

ps ive fitted these on mine i'll take some pics and post up picture later

Alan,
Thanks for that detailed post - that belongs in our 'Knowledge base' area also. http://www.3457.com/images/thumbup-two.gif

Yep - the only way to be safe is to somehow manually lock the chain tensioning plunger in place as with your mod or a set of APE replacements. Gambling the life of your engine on those two whimpy breakable springs isn't common sense.
As I remember we have a forum member (cafineracer) who mentioned he went about 50K miles without adjusting his APEs.

Can somebody provide a drawing of what the stock CCT's look like inside or explain how they work exactly? I like the idea of just adding a fixed stop to the stock CCT's as Alan described and provided pictures of. If one goes this route, do the cylinders have to be at TDC before removing the stock bolt to keep the cam chain from jumping???

No, taking that bolt out will not cause any loss of tension on the chain. its just the bolt and sealing washer that keeps oil from coming out of the tensioner.

Click here--> https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...9&postcount=29

So you don't think the "screwdriver" shaped end to prevent the stock bolt from turning would be a good idea? It seems to me that this just converts your stock auto CCTs to manual without having to worry about the chain jumping a tooth, and saving about $40 in the process.

I never said that. I think the screwdriver idea is fine. Think about the time spent though, drilling out a bolt (centered and straight), tapping it, grinding it, etc. and compare that to the time installing the APEs. Having done it once I think installing the APEs will be quicker and with less drama.

Greg,

Thanks for the picture of the CCT components. I must admit, I am not a gearhead and would be a little anxious pulling the valve covers to determine TDC before removing the stock CCTs. It looks like the spring pushes the plunger into the cam chain every time it relaxes (at TDC) which is what likely causes fatigue/failure since this is happening several thousand times per minute. When the spring does fail it causes the plunger to loose tension completely and the cam chain jumps (very bad). If I install the screw (within a screw) isn't the worst thing that can happen is that the chain will relax to the same point as at TDC (at that point becoming the same as a manual CCT)?

Steener

PS If there were a simple way to determine TDC I would swap out to APE's tomorrow. I had a R/R failure the first week I bought the bike....

I think the failure of the spring is from thermal stress. The spring acts only to tighten the cam chain by rotating the threaded part so that the plunger moves out. The plunger cannot move back inward easily because of the pitch of the threads, much like a worm gear. It's axial force trying to rotate the threaded part. Will a bolt threaded through a plate of metal rotate when you push on it? No. Same principle here.

I was thinking I was going to do Alan's mod.. until I took that bolt out of the rear CCT.. that thing is Tiny!! and while I have a friend with a machine shop who said he would make the part for me, I think the better option is to just get APE's. The procedure in the KBB https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ead.php?t=5510 doesn't look THAT difficult.

Wow, I just replaced my timing chains, guides and tensioners. After 45k the timing chain would make a little noise on startup or at idle sometimes. I replaced the CCT's with another factory unit, I guess it should be good for another 40k miles if I keep it that long, I noticed on the web site the CCT was listed with an old part number and one with a new part number so I suppose the units are the new updated style, I hope.

Just curious, is that the cam chains you are talking about?

Yes, it is. bad me. Cam chain would be technically correct. I just put a new timing belt in the car and have a habit of saying that because they really are the same thing...

To add to that, the funny thing is people call the CCT a tensioner and is, but Honda labels it a Lifter, Tensioner and the guide it adjusts is the Tensioner, Cam Chain.... lol

Nothing bad there. I asked cause I have a timing issue. The front sylinder sprockets are 1 - 2 deg off when cranc is at the TDC mark, and I wonder if I might have to change the chain.

I found from some research that the cam chains start to stretch at 20-30k miles and should be changed before 50k or when they start to slap from being loose. Now this applies to bikes normally ridden and regular oil changes. Ive seen on Ebay several engines for sale that had broken cam chains starting at 20k miles and up. A friend changed the CCT to a manual one and after a year ended up changing out the cam chain anyway because it got sloppy. I noticed on mine the timing marks on the sprockets were a little off and the chain was riding up the teeth on one side when I took the valve cover off. After installing the new chains all lined up and the world was good.

A little off, would that be like the marks is 2-3 mm off on both sprocets for one cylinder?
On mine it's like this or if the marks are spot on the crank have moved to a point between F and T for the front TDC