Turntech battery update
05-13-2010, 04:09 PM
#31
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Fly in the ointment
seems I have run into a snag with my new battery. I have run it for about 1500 km since the intitial post-hiberbation start-up and, while the battery always seemed to strain to start the bike (to the point that I wondered about getting an additonal 2.5H pack to help it out), it always got the job done. This afternoon, however, it turned the engine over maybe 2-3 times and died. The temperature out was actually fairly warm (mid-day, about 14 deg C) and the battery did get the job done previously in cooler weather. Anyhow, I removed it and put my old Yuasa back in and the bike fired up flawlessly (and quite quickly).
I just e-mailed TurnTech and am waiting for a reply.
I just e-mailed TurnTech and am waiting for a reply.
05-13-2010, 07:52 PM
#32
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Hmm, I am interested to hear, because for me my home made version turned the bike over quickly right from the start.. I wonder if they are not using large enough wires inside the battery connecting the cells.
05-15-2010, 09:24 PM
#33
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So I finished my version and installed it in my bike..
From:
to:
to:
finally:
I put bolts through the entire pack to hold the new bike interface leads. Those I made out of some scrap steel that I tapped (threaded) for the standard battery screws.
After a ~20 mile ride today it seems to be working great. Didn't get hot at all, and the bike turns over super fast when starting.
This battery is no longer in my bike.. I will make another if I get cheap cells again.
It was sacrificed for another project.
From:
to:
to:
finally:
I put bolts through the entire pack to hold the new bike interface leads. Those I made out of some scrap steel that I tapped (threaded) for the standard battery screws.
After a ~20 mile ride today it seems to be working great. Didn't get hot at all, and the bike turns over super fast when starting.
This battery is no longer in my bike.. I will make another if I get cheap cells again.
It was sacrificed for another project.
Last edited by lazn; 04-24-2011 at 11:12 AM.
05-16-2010, 04:31 AM
#35
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Mine does easily...
In essence they are capable of producing more energy instantly than any Lead-Acid battery is capable of... A (Sealed)Lead-Acid (SLA) battery has a much higher internal resistance then these batteries... That is why these can be discharged at 70A continous and 120A in 10 second pulses... And then charged at 3A-10A...
Plus, since an SLA battery is only capable of using less than 50% of it's rated capacity when you try to start an engine becuase of the load building resistance and heat making the voltage drop, these are much more efficient... That means a 10Ah SLA is essentially a 4Ah battery when you start the bike... You can only use the remaining part under very low load, and even then at the very most only about 80% ie 8Ah...
An A123 battery gives you 95% of it's capacity as long as you stay below the above mentioned ampere draws... If you stay below 85% discharge you extend life greatly, and that is still way beyond the SLA's capacity... A 2*4 pack is 4.6Ah and 85% of that is 3.9Ah... Which is equivalent to the 10Ah SLA... At optimum discharge level of 80% you get slightly less, but you also get around 10.000 cycles...
And then there is the kicker... Two miles from home the battery pack is full... Why? Simple becuase it can absorb a charge current of up to 10A... Ie it takes all the available charge current from the bike and fills the pack in no time... So even if it's slightly "smaller" in capacity than the SLA, it's always full...
Now I dunno what's wrong with mikstr's battery pack... But that's definetly not how mine have behaved... So something is strange there...
In essence they are capable of producing more energy instantly than any Lead-Acid battery is capable of... A (Sealed)Lead-Acid (SLA) battery has a much higher internal resistance then these batteries... That is why these can be discharged at 70A continous and 120A in 10 second pulses... And then charged at 3A-10A...
Plus, since an SLA battery is only capable of using less than 50% of it's rated capacity when you try to start an engine becuase of the load building resistance and heat making the voltage drop, these are much more efficient... That means a 10Ah SLA is essentially a 4Ah battery when you start the bike... You can only use the remaining part under very low load, and even then at the very most only about 80% ie 8Ah...
An A123 battery gives you 95% of it's capacity as long as you stay below the above mentioned ampere draws... If you stay below 85% discharge you extend life greatly, and that is still way beyond the SLA's capacity... A 2*4 pack is 4.6Ah and 85% of that is 3.9Ah... Which is equivalent to the 10Ah SLA... At optimum discharge level of 80% you get slightly less, but you also get around 10.000 cycles...
And then there is the kicker... Two miles from home the battery pack is full... Why? Simple becuase it can absorb a charge current of up to 10A... Ie it takes all the available charge current from the bike and fills the pack in no time... So even if it's slightly "smaller" in capacity than the SLA, it's always full...
Now I dunno what's wrong with mikstr's battery pack... But that's definetly not how mine have behaved... So something is strange there...
05-16-2010, 04:45 AM
#37
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HI Markus,
that is what the Turntech chap asked me to do as well. However, I never had the slightest trouble with the Yuasa so something seems fishy.
BTW, I sent you an e-mail with a Q about the BMC filter....
cheers
that is what the Turntech chap asked me to do as well. However, I never had the slightest trouble with the Yuasa so something seems fishy.
BTW, I sent you an e-mail with a Q about the BMC filter....
cheers
05-16-2010, 05:41 AM
#38
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Something to keep in mind fellas......
I built the same A123 2300mAh cell pack as being described here and also had problems keeping it charged. I've since went back to the stock battery. My original 1997 battery lasted until last year (2009) and I only changed it because I wanted to try the Lithium pack thing. I point that out to clarify that I do not believe there is anything at all wrong with my charging system.
I'm not really sure why the Lithium pack was having problems. My guess is that it wasn't getting topped off properly. This is because the stock charging system only hits the pack with low-13V and the Lithium pack needs more like 14-14.5V. My current opinion is that it's marginal and may require manual recharging from time to time, but the jury is still out.
I built the same A123 2300mAh cell pack as being described here and also had problems keeping it charged. I've since went back to the stock battery. My original 1997 battery lasted until last year (2009) and I only changed it because I wanted to try the Lithium pack thing. I point that out to clarify that I do not believe there is anything at all wrong with my charging system.
I'm not really sure why the Lithium pack was having problems. My guess is that it wasn't getting topped off properly. This is because the stock charging system only hits the pack with low-13V and the Lithium pack needs more like 14-14.5V. My current opinion is that it's marginal and may require manual recharging from time to time, but the jury is still out.
05-16-2010, 06:01 AM
#39
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Well... If your charging system is behaving like it should, it should put out around 13.5V ie say 13.3-13.7 would be normal... It should most definetly not drop below 13.3V... For a normal charge the battery pack needs 3.3V*4 ie 13.3V or above and when I say "or above" it means 13.3V is quite enough to charge it... For a full 100% charge it needs 3.6V*4 ie 14.4V...
But you don't need or want to charge it to 100%... If you do, the pack becomes unbalanced and you need a balancer... If you keep the battery within 80% of it's total capacity never discharging it to the point where it starts to fall of in voltage or charge it to the point where the voltage starts to spike towards the 3.6V "peak charge" it stays in natural balance and you get the optimal charge cycles out of it...
That's what theory tells me, and that's what my own experience tells me from using them in RC models...
However if your charging system is on the low end without really being faulty... Ie say 13.2V or below... You will never ever get a normal charge out of the A123's... And as a result you slowly increase the internal resistance of the cells with each "float charge" cycle... Hit it with a 5A or higher charge and it's "reset" and works like normal again...
But you don't need or want to charge it to 100%... If you do, the pack becomes unbalanced and you need a balancer... If you keep the battery within 80% of it's total capacity never discharging it to the point where it starts to fall of in voltage or charge it to the point where the voltage starts to spike towards the 3.6V "peak charge" it stays in natural balance and you get the optimal charge cycles out of it...
That's what theory tells me, and that's what my own experience tells me from using them in RC models...
However if your charging system is on the low end without really being faulty... Ie say 13.2V or below... You will never ever get a normal charge out of the A123's... And as a result you slowly increase the internal resistance of the cells with each "float charge" cycle... Hit it with a 5A or higher charge and it's "reset" and works like normal again...
05-16-2010, 06:22 AM
#40
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BTW... My bike puts out 13.6V at constant operation and never goes above 13.8V as far as I can tell (I hooked up a voltmeter with peak hold and took a ride wringing it out)... For me that means my pack get's well above minimum 3.3V per cell and at their fullest charge should be 3.45V which is partway up the peak but not at 100%... Keeps them balanced and charged and while not within optimal middle 80%, well within reasonable boundaries to get a fair lifetime out of them... Atleast in theory... I'll let you know on practical results in a few months...
05-16-2010, 03:29 PM
#41
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look like i'ma be making me a new battery too.. seem like a good idea.. tweety what's the cost of this compare to buying a regular battery for the bike?.. I paid 40 buck for mine at wally world, bad part is it need vent.. i pluged the vents and drill 3 small holes on top so it can breathe but not leak
05-16-2010, 03:41 PM
#42
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Look a few posts up...
40 is cheap for a battery, but I'd expect it to be really cheap if it's not sealed... I'd say 75-100 ish is normal for a good quality SLA... So it's too not cheap relative to that, but it's good... If you buy 8 cells you will get a slightly higher price than me buying them 100 at the time though...
40 is cheap for a battery, but I'd expect it to be really cheap if it's not sealed... I'd say 75-100 ish is normal for a good quality SLA... So it's too not cheap relative to that, but it's good... If you buy 8 cells you will get a slightly higher price than me buying them 100 at the time though...
05-16-2010, 04:21 PM
#44
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And that would most likely be more expensive as it will likely blow up expensive electric parts when it fails... All battery cells are not created equal... A123's are the only one's I'd consider using as replacement for SLA batteries...
05-16-2010, 05:38 PM
#45
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BTW... My bike puts out 13.6V at constant operation and never goes above 13.8V as far as I can tell (I hooked up a voltmeter with peak hold and took a ride wringing it out)... For me that means my pack get's well above minimum 3.3V per cell and at their fullest charge should be 3.45V which is partway up the peak but not at 100%... Keeps them balanced and charged and while not within optimal middle 80%, well within reasonable boundaries to get a fair lifetime out of them... Atleast in theory... I'll let you know on practical results in a few months...
That's about the same as mine. I believe that since the packs needs charged to 14.4V that I was just not topping it off enough. It wouldn't start after work one day - so that was it. Until I can figure out why I'm going to shelve the pack I built.
05-16-2010, 06:18 PM
#46
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Uh... Where do you get 14.4V from? I'm guessing 3.6V per cell?
That is indeed the recommended charge voltage, but it's not necessary to charge at that voltage... The cells are quite fine being charged at 3.31 if necessary... I'd probably recommend 3.4 or above though...
Oh... One thing I did notice... Using 6# wire I had both problems with charge and medium warm cables at cranking... Using 8# wire both problems went away... What gauge are you using?
That is indeed the recommended charge voltage, but it's not necessary to charge at that voltage... The cells are quite fine being charged at 3.31 if necessary... I'd probably recommend 3.4 or above though...
Oh... One thing I did notice... Using 6# wire I had both problems with charge and medium warm cables at cranking... Using 8# wire both problems went away... What gauge are you using?
05-16-2010, 06:38 PM
#48
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Well... I really can't say what happened to your cells... But I have been deliberately punishing mine to extremes that would have killed a lead battery for sure and they keep starting my bike without complaint... Over and over again...
The most amazing thing so far is the 12 cells that keep starting a 426 Hemi over and over... that car has now done roughly 1500 km on those cells... Malmö-Göteborg-Stockholm... Yes, the owner of that car keeps it in near showroom condition... Then he takes it out and beats the snot out of it on a racetrack, fills the tank and goes cross country... His philosophy is that cars are meant to be driven... I couldn't agree more...
Edit: On the plus side for that battery though, I'd have to say it does get a workout, so I'd say it's an excellent testbench...
The most amazing thing so far is the 12 cells that keep starting a 426 Hemi over and over... that car has now done roughly 1500 km on those cells... Malmö-Göteborg-Stockholm... Yes, the owner of that car keeps it in near showroom condition... Then he takes it out and beats the snot out of it on a racetrack, fills the tank and goes cross country... His philosophy is that cars are meant to be driven... I couldn't agree more...
Edit: On the plus side for that battery though, I'd have to say it does get a workout, so I'd say it's an excellent testbench...
Last edited by Tweety; 05-16-2010 at 06:42 PM.
05-16-2010, 09:40 PM
#49
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DeWalt "nano" lithium batteries are the only A123 cell based ones out there.
06-18-2010, 06:50 AM
#50
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Jamie, mikstr... I think I have a solution for you guys... it might not "solve" the problem, but it will at least diagnose it for you...
Since I found that most guys are unwilling to stick a digital portable oscilloscope with data recording under their saddle and ride around to figure out what their charging system is doing, I found an easier way...
If you remeber I made a two LED charge indicator for a few guys here? (I have heard back from one of them with a few questions, so I'll give a bit more details here...)
The original "dummy lights" works such that when the voltage goes above 11.9V (+- .05V depending on tolarances, same for all voltages I mention...) the Red LED starts to dim and it's completely off at 12.2V... The Yellow LED starts to glow at 14.2V and is fully on above 14.9V...
This means that the SLA/Gel battery that's normally in there is at the very least breaking even and is most likely getting enough of a charge to stay functional for a long time... Ie no light = Good!
The occasional flicker of any LED or/and a Red LED at idle is OK, but if it goes beyond that, start looking for the problem...
Now with the a123 cells this isn't good enough... They have a nominal voltage at rest of 13.2V (3.3V per cell) when charged and a nominal charge voltage of 14.4V... Now anything between 13.2-15.2V is ok for charging, the closer to 14.4V the better battery life... But the difference is in the neighbourhood of 10 years vs 20 of battery life, so it's not life or death...
So I modified my "dummy light"... The A123 version is operating exactly 1V higher than the SLA version... Ie 13.2-15.2V means NO LED... and surprise...That's the same voltage that the a 123's like...
The drawback is that it gives a little less margin for error upwards as the voltage is a bit higher than the ECU and such would like once you reach 15V, but it's supposed to handle up to 16V without problems and up to 20V without risk of immidiate failure, so the decrease of margin for the warning should be fine...
If you wan't one, let me know... Or if you prefer DIY style, I'll gladle give you all the info you need... I have bare PCB's by the handfull if you need them...
Oh, and one just like it will be going with a certain battery pack to the US in a few hours once I drop it of at the post office, free of charge...
Since I found that most guys are unwilling to stick a digital portable oscilloscope with data recording under their saddle and ride around to figure out what their charging system is doing, I found an easier way...
If you remeber I made a two LED charge indicator for a few guys here? (I have heard back from one of them with a few questions, so I'll give a bit more details here...)
The original "dummy lights" works such that when the voltage goes above 11.9V (+- .05V depending on tolarances, same for all voltages I mention...) the Red LED starts to dim and it's completely off at 12.2V... The Yellow LED starts to glow at 14.2V and is fully on above 14.9V...
This means that the SLA/Gel battery that's normally in there is at the very least breaking even and is most likely getting enough of a charge to stay functional for a long time... Ie no light = Good!
The occasional flicker of any LED or/and a Red LED at idle is OK, but if it goes beyond that, start looking for the problem...
Now with the a123 cells this isn't good enough... They have a nominal voltage at rest of 13.2V (3.3V per cell) when charged and a nominal charge voltage of 14.4V... Now anything between 13.2-15.2V is ok for charging, the closer to 14.4V the better battery life... But the difference is in the neighbourhood of 10 years vs 20 of battery life, so it's not life or death...
So I modified my "dummy light"... The A123 version is operating exactly 1V higher than the SLA version... Ie 13.2-15.2V means NO LED... and surprise...That's the same voltage that the a 123's like...
The drawback is that it gives a little less margin for error upwards as the voltage is a bit higher than the ECU and such would like once you reach 15V, but it's supposed to handle up to 16V without problems and up to 20V without risk of immidiate failure, so the decrease of margin for the warning should be fine...
If you wan't one, let me know... Or if you prefer DIY style, I'll gladle give you all the info you need... I have bare PCB's by the handfull if you need them...
Oh, and one just like it will be going with a certain battery pack to the US in a few hours once I drop it of at the post office, free of charge...
06-18-2010, 10:01 AM
#52
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Hey Tweety (or others with an answer) . . . You said 13.3V - 13.7V is normal from the charging system. What is too much charging voltage for a regular lead-acid battery? My R/R is allowing 14.75V to the battery at all RPMs (brand new aftermarket R/R). Is that going to hurt my SLA battery?
I guess my R/R with a A123 battery might be a good pairing.
I guess my R/R with a A123 battery might be a good pairing.
06-18-2010, 01:21 PM
#53
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Give me a bit and I'll gladly draw up a schematic for you if you like...
06-18-2010, 01:24 PM
#54
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Hey Tweety (or others with an answer) . . . You said 13.3V - 13.7V is normal from the charging system. What is too much charging voltage for a regular lead-acid battery? My R/R is allowing 14.75V to the battery at all RPMs (brand new aftermarket R/R). Is that going to hurt my SLA battery?
I guess my R/R with a A123 battery might be a good pairing.
I guess my R/R with a A123 battery might be a good pairing.
12-11-2010, 03:56 PM
#57
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Ok guys, you tricked me into thinking this would be easy to do
I have a couple quick questions for the electrical nuts out there:
Got a DeWalt battery pack as per Lazn. Seen in pics. Got the A123 cell batteries out. Now, do I just solder a positive and negative 8 gauge wire on the ones that already had a positive and negative wires? Cover in shrink wrap... then done? There has to be something I'm missing...
I have a couple quick questions for the electrical nuts out there:
Got a DeWalt battery pack as per Lazn. Seen in pics. Got the A123 cell batteries out. Now, do I just solder a positive and negative 8 gauge wire on the ones that already had a positive and negative wires? Cover in shrink wrap... then done? There has to be something I'm missing...
12-11-2010, 05:14 PM
#58
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I have a source for some very good Hyperion A123 cells. Much higher quality than the ones you guys are using which I suspect a few of you may have found out already. I have been building battery packs for RC cars that have way more power than these packs you're using. In fact, one of my setups uses a 6S setup (24VDC) and is a real screamer. The reason these batteries charge so quickly is that you can charge them up to 4C, in other words 4 times their discharge capacity. Doesn't mean they will charge that fast if you don't put that much into them but they are capable of taking a charge that fast. I am going to build a pack for myself however I will include the balancing circuit since I have the means to balance it.
7moore7 I would put some liquid flux on the top of those batteries and hit the bus bars with a dab of solder. If it were me I'd go with a bigger gauge wire than 8 but yes that's where you need to put them.
7moore7 I would put some liquid flux on the top of those batteries and hit the bus bars with a dab of solder. If it were me I'd go with a bigger gauge wire than 8 but yes that's where you need to put them.
12-11-2010, 05:32 PM
#60
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http://media.hyperion.hk/dn/a123/pac...23packassy.pdf
