On this Easter weekend maybe it is helpful to remember that while he was on this Earth Jesus only commanded us to to do one thing: Love.
I really don't like seeing stuff like this on my favorite forum! |
If you ask WWJD (What Would Jesus Do), I'd imagine he would have saved some $$ by tuning the OEM to suit his riding needs vs converting to USD forks without spending time/effort to tune.
Easiest thing to do; change out the fork oil to different weight to make the fork "feel stiffer". |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
At which point was I not being civil in this discussion?
Knowledge is gained only when you mind is open, bowing out is simply closing your mind to the discussion.
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
Of course two of you are in bed together, why wouldn't you? both of you arguing for USD fork without getting USD fork properly setup and tested for you personal use; easily could have saved some money and time by tuning the OEM forks specifically for your usage.
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
I have tried USD forks vs OEM forks, I said that few posts ago, did you not read careful?
Yes you have tried them on a dirt bike.... not a lot in common with a VTR there and a SuperMoto again completely different type of a bike than a heavy street bike..... so you think that just maybe there might be a difference in the performance out come? So once again, unless you have ridden a VTR with a USD conversion, you are just assuming and really do not have any real info to add.
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
So how much does all that mod to USD forks/braced headstock cost vs just getting OEM fork specifically tuned for you specifically to suit your riding?
You have to weigh the cost vs benefit. Without proper testing or setup, USD or OEM forks are not going to suit your riding, even though you might be able to tell the extra stiffness of USD forks at the seat of your pants, but that can easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200. As for what mu USD set up cost.... well SP2 forks with Ohlins valves set up by Dan Kyle.... cost to me $100 ;) Yeah I had to buy a set of springs. Have a nice day, you are on your own. |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
At which point was I not being civil in this discussion?
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
Knowledge is gained only when you mind is open..
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
I have tried USD forks vs OEM forks, I said that few posts ago, did you not read careful?
So the snide remark is both uncalled for, and immaterial to THIS discussion.
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
So how much does all that mod to USD forks/braced headstock cost vs just getting OEM fork specifically tuned for you specifically to suit your riding?
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
You have to weigh the cost vs benefit.
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200.
Swapping to USD forks is more expensive then Modifying OEM forks to be the best they can, if for no other reason you have to source and pay for the USD forks, triple clamps, fender, wheel, brakes, ect... But in the end you get better brakes, wheel options and suspension using off the shelf or parts yard stuff... Plus you get to visually modify the bike. Plus you get to build something more unique that every other rider commonly has in a VTR. If the OEM brakes meet your needs, the suspension is fine for your riding style and just needs a spring and oil change to meet your goals.. then of course those simple mods are better for you...... It would not meet my goals and needs however. |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351651)
Easiest thing to do; change out the fork oil to different weight to make the fork "feel stiffer".
Not saying you will just end up in the ditch doing that but it is one of the possibilities.... |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351651)
If you ask WWJD (What Would Jesus Do), I'd imagine he would have saved some $$ by tuning the OEM to suit his riding needs vs converting to USD forks without spending time/effort to tune.
Easiest thing to do; change out the fork oil to different weight to make the fork "feel stiffer". That is not a slam, just an observation. If folks start discussing the finer points of english literature, I will be able to read the words, but not truly understand the discussion. That's a lot like what has happened in this thread. No harm no foul... just is. Have a great weekend... Go ride |
2 Attachment(s)
Seems to me some of you are rather insecure about your riding skills and those of you that went USD forks done so for cosmetic reasons.. without investigating what options you may have with OEM forks.
My experience of OEM vs USD forks are as follow: I participated in desert racing for 4 years on my XR650R with properly tuned OEM forks, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ling/Baja1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...cling/Sand.jpg then converted to USD Ohlins properly tuned for supermotard/track work. Attachment 23777 Attachment 23778 On the streets, without landing tabletops or huge sand dunes, no one would be bale to tell the stiffness gained changing to USD forks if OEM fork were properly tuned. Besides the XR650R, I've also done USD forks conversions on SV650S for track use, sure USD forks look cool, but extra "stiffnes" isn't always a good thing. The whole concept of suspension is to soak up bumps so you don't feel them. Not to get "stiffer" or better brakes in the process. You spend all the $$ to get better performance to go faster, why would you want better brakes? all they do is slow you down. |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351649)
Without proper testing or setup, USD or OEM forks are not going to suit your riding, even though you might be able to tell the extra stiffness of USD forks at the seat of your pants, but that can easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200.
Originally Posted by Tweety
Sooo... How does 1000RR forks with Öhlins internals, setup for me specifically by the same team that does WSB bikes for the top teams sound? Oh BTW, the frame is braced at the headstock and other places...
You have to weigh the cost vs benefit. Without proper testing or setup, USD or OEM forks are not going to suit your riding, even though you might be able to tell the extra stiffness of USD forks at the seat of your pants, but that can easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200. From OEM, to thicker oil (Which BTW was nothing short of awful, as it made the fork worse than OEM)... Then to stiffer springs... To springs and valving (specifically tuned to me), and the brace added in, which was pretty decent, but still "wobbly" compared to other bikes... To finally going all the way to an USD fork, and correct valving and springs for me... And then about a year later, uprated internals, with a lot of tuning for me... Trust me, it makes a difference in how the bike feels and behaves, every step... And I wouldn't really recommend anyone to try fiddling with changing oil thickness... Changing the oil level is one thing... Thicker oil, not a good idea at all... |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351666)
Seems to me some of you are rather insecure about your riding skills and those of you that went USD forks done so for cosmetic reasons.. without investigating what options you may have with OEM forks.
I have been nothing but civil, and giving information to have a discussion... But what I get in return are you spewing opinions, and opinions disguised as facts... And one or two veiled insults... With your added "advice" of changing oil thickness, which on a road bike can result in "oil lock", ie when the fork goes momentary solid from not being able to pump the oil, which is really, really unnerving, and can be fairly dangerous, I think I'll just take the rest of what you are saying and stick it where it belongs... In the trashbin... Good day... BTW, for those unsure... This IS a slam... nothing short of, and completely intentional... |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351666)
Seems to me some of you are rather insecure about your riding skills and those of you that went USD forks done so for cosmetic reasons.. without investigating what options you may have with OEM forks.
Then implying that the fork change was done for cosmetic reasons or the ones doing it have done no research, well I guess you know all and just ignore the posts about how the OEM parts were taken as far as the could go, in as far as set up, and were still found unacceptable. I did have to laugh when you called those disagreeing with you "closed minded" when you really seem to be the one who can't accept facts when they are spelled out for you. So have fun in your little world, throw some thicker fork oil in there, as that will fix everything and while you are at it, pull those stupid brakes off all together, as like you said "all they do is slow you down" So I really am done now..... Good Day. |
Whatever floats your boat, do you honestly think someone who is looking to do one single mod is going to convert the VTR to USD forks?
As to changing the fork oil, it does require some trial and error, but in case if you produce "oil lock" in your forks after changing oil weight, that pretty much indicates that you shouldn't be working on suspension yourself, leave it to someone else. So call "SLAM", is just weak sauce...:cool: |
ENOUGH...........
One and all, you, me, everybody, everybody :lol: Lets drop all the personal stuff please. Speak to the topic, or choose not to post. Thanks |
There is nothing physical about swapping to USD forks that causes more stress on the frame.
Tuned OEM forks with a brace work very well. USD forks are still more precise, because the stanschions are substantially stiffer. Simple physics. The tubes have a larger diameter, giving them a higher area moment of inertia. |
Originally Posted by RCVTR
(Post 351684)
There is nothing physical about swapping to USD forks that causes more stress on the frame.
Tuned OEM forks with a brace work very well. USD forks are still more precise, because the stanschions are substantially stiffer. Simple physics. The tubes have a larger diameter, giving them a higher area moment of inertia. I guess there is nothing to add at this point, all is covered by now.. just wanted to share my experience: When I got my USD forks, after rebuilding them and installing on the bike, the deference in riding was enormous even before I started tuning the forks, not to mention braking and steering due to rake & trail, for me that was a well worth investment. Got to say, I had a good laugh reading these posts :rotf: fun fun fun Love this forum |
Ya as much as Most of us are enjoying this topic, it was NOT intended to create a battle; just a learning and sharing topic for us to get ideas. Although some have differences of opinion, lets stay civil with our SH brothers. That alone shows 1 solid thing in common, we all own and love our birds.
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I would take USD forks over modified OEM forks any day!
I will leave it to Jamie to discuss the dangers in just "changing the fork oil". Your cue Jamie..... |
Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351679)
Whatever floats your boat, do you honestly think someone who is looking to do one single mod is going to convert the VTR to USD forks?
As to changing the fork oil, it does require some trial and error, but in case if you produce "oil lock" in your forks after changing oil weight, that pretty much indicates that you shouldn't be working on suspension yourself, leave it to someone else. So call "SLAM", is just weak sauce...:cool: Please, either point out where I replied that the "single mod" should be USD forks, or be man enough to admit you put your foot in it? It shouldn't be too hard really, since I haven't made too many posts in this thread... And, as for oil lock... Well... Pretty much any thicker oil in the VTR's fork will produce that, as it has very restrictive valves compared to off-road bikes... Two completely different setups, and hence why what works on the dunes doesn't work on the road... Because like I said, I have tuned the stock forks... So far, you haven't even once said that you have, only blabbered about off road bikes which is a totaly irrelevant to the VTR forks... Something you might take a moment to consider before "giving advice" from your infinite pool of knowledge... |
:horse::fight:
:rotf: :threadjack: |
yo dawgs, dat extended swingarm be phat! best mod EVR! def keeps da bike from doin cartwheels when u dnt want to. ITZ PHYSICS HOMIES!!!
(haha fuel to the fire perhaps?) man, best mod i did was just get rid of the damn forks all together... WAAY BETTER THAN OEM OR USD'S!!!! http://www.vehiclepassion.com/wp-con...wheel-bike.jpg :thumbsup::behindsofa: |
Originally Posted by shake-n-bake
(Post 351724)
yo dawgs, dat extended swingarm be phat! best mod EVR! def keeps da bike from doin cartwheels when u dnt want to. ITZ PHYSICS HOMIES!!!
(haha fuel to the fire perhaps?) man, best mod i did was just get rid of the damn forks all together... WAAY BETTER THAN OEM OR USD'S!!!! http://www.vehiclepassion.com/wp-con...wheel-bike.jpg :thumbsup::behindsofa: |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's one of those hyper-retard racing setups isn't it? He doesn't worry about fork-lock, he doesn't even have any forks! |
So back to the point at hand. If I had to get rid of all but one mod I would keep my front end swap.
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Originally Posted by cat0020
(Post 351679)
As to changing the fork oil, it does require some trial and error, but in case if you produce "oil lock" in your forks after changing oil weight, that pretty much indicates that you shouldn't be working on suspension yourself, leave it to someone else.
|
Originally Posted by Tweety
(Post 351633)
My answer for the OP's question, without any hesitation at all, suspension, suspension, suspension... Gotta go w/ da Swede When I did mine 5 yrs ago? It was like having a new moto. |
next month,if it all goes as planed i should mount a complete R adittions to stock suspension...
the suspension i am talking about is the one T-slo is seling... the rear shock should do just fine sofar my expirience says,but the front end is the one i am worried about :cool: the oem forks just dont cut the deal... it is a touring bike in its nature,so to ride it hard and efficient it needs far more than adjustments on the oem suspension... for last 3000km i was trying to adjust almost everything there is to(and took it to a real sb mechanics and sb drivers and trying again and agin),my conclusion to stock suspension aswell as stock brakes is that they are realy good and functional for touring ride,but moment you get wild they fail! that is all my humble expirience talking,i cant say that for a fact,but that is thr way i see it... so as i said before,now i am first going to purchase these aprovements and get them mounted by profesionals(not that i cant myself,but i hapend to have a friend that races in sb now for 10 yrs and works as a mechanic,have a shop too)...so when i mount them and drive it out for a while i will give as much as detail review on my "improvment"... till then,;) :cool: |
I got a shock from Jamie, and paid for stiffer springs, and a shop to install them and do custom valving for my weight...all of that together cost approximately 500 bucks...I started tracking the bike with that setup with the stock brakes (some EBC HH pads), and it was awesome!
Was it "wobbly" or whatever like Tweety suggests above? Probably...did I care? No...because I didn't know any better, not having ridden any other bikes on the track before....even as a beginner I could tell the stock stuff sucked though, the bike would bottom out over some bumps, and the front end was like a pogo stick on the track. The hawk isn't a racing bike, USD forks are not worth the money IMO, but if you can only have one motorcycle and you've chosen the hawk, then going the full 9 yards on the front end is probably worth it.... |
in my opinion, best mod is mirror extenders. Now I can see people with rear view mirrors when I wear my joerocket jacket.. lol Peace..
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Originally Posted by jonjonsocal
(Post 351887)
in my opinion, best mod is mirror extenders. Now I can see people with rear view mirrors when I wear my joerocket jacket.. lol Peace..
You can also learn to use your peripheral vision better, you can see motion much better then in your focused vision area, trust me, this will save your life, not the mirrors. |
Originally Posted by RCVTR
(Post 351824)
It is true, you can fine tune your damping by changing oil viscosity. My RC51 forks had a blend of 5 wt and 10 wt oils, making it somewhere around 7 wt. This was arrived at (not by me) through thorough track testing. Good call.
Well, I know the theory behind it is sound... But when I tested going to 7.5W fork oil on an otherwise stock fork, it caused oil lock for me... I do think the to soft OEM spring contributed to that behaviour as it pretty much bottomed out, moving fast... But it made it fairly clear that the stock valving is very restrictive... It might work better with a correct spring, or at least a heavier spring, I don't know... But for me, only changing the oil weight, and with a 215 pound rider, it was a scary experience, hence why I "attack" people's recommendation to do that to the OEM forks, saying I wouldn't recommend it... On a sidenote, I have too done it on off road bikes with great results, altough mostly by recommendation from others that have tested it, not by finding the correct mix myself... |
Tweety is spot on. I have found that people will confuse "stiff" with "performance". It comes down to the root of the problem with the HMAS valving that is present in both the VTR and RC51 forks (and pretty much everything else from that era). The issue is too much high speed damping. This generates a nice firm low speed range which is great for control and rider feedback. The downside is it creates much more high speed that added on top of the already excessive amount in the forks. The end result is very poor performance.
Oil viscosity is not a tuning mechanism. |
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