At what speed does....
 

At what speed does countersteering kick in? Here's the logic...you turn right (say out of an intersection) and the input on the bars directs the bike..but rolling at say 70 mph and committing to a right hand curve, you gently nudge the bars to the left..I guess it's almost instinctive...

I'm a big fan of the countersteering effect but simply wondered when the inertia and physics change the input...

Thoughts?

Keith Code - Twist of the wrist

Google....is your friend...:-)

Improved my riding after just one viewing

Countersteering starts just about as soon as you being moving. Anything over "pulling into a parking spot" speed will require you to countersteer. If you've been ridng for a while you probably don't even realize that you do it. To pull out into an intersection I drop the bike over as soon as my feet leave the ground then immediately being the countersteer effort. It's intuitive now but certainly wasn't at first!

turning in a parking lot or anything just pulling out is turn the wheel(slow/straight up), other than that use lean,feet, knees, body positioning and bar pressure(countersteering). Even at fairly slow speeds like making a circle in a parking lot, there is no need to turn the bars if you have enough speed to lean. Turning the front wheel is basically a straight up maneuver. As soon as you lean the front tire will align itself.

Countersteering: It would be an unbelievable statistic if it were possible to enumerate every death/injury/accident that resulted from the lack of the knowledge and ability to countersteer. Many riders who could have avoided hitting something or staying on the road/lane , etc., by countersteering, instead sustained life long injuries or death. When i first started riding in 1963, I never heard the word despite many discussions. The only thing I learned was from an older guy who told me to grab the bull by the horns like you want to drop him to the ground. By twisting his head/horns toward the right you will cause him to fall on his left side. That's how you turn your bike he said. This analogy served me well and i taught hundreds of riders to do this over the years, most of whom mistakenly assumed that leaning was the only way to turn a bike. Unfortunately many riders couldn't turn fast enough by leaning to avoid disaster. What a terrible waste.

Countersteering
 

Yep, you just do it without thinking. I'm afraid if I thought about it (while trying it) I would just drop the bike. You will go where you look, and you use your center gravity (butt) to steer. The counter-steering seems automatic at any speed.


Ride safe

I'd suggest practicing it on a bicycle first. As said above, it should be intuitive. But when going wide in a turn, it's a good idea to consciously push on the inside bar...and hope you're not in too hot to lose the front end.

The more you ride, the more you learn how to ride. Stay safe.

I think the only way countersteering won't work even at very low speeds is when you counterweight the bike to keep it perfectly straight (don't allow it to lean). in that instance then you get direct results ie. turn left go left - similar to those very tight maneuvers you see police drill teams do.

Gyroscopic precession I think is the term and if I'm also correct from what I learned in m/c school, there has to be leanage to turn a motorcycle or a bicycle.

Agreed. Any time you need to lean left to turn left to keep from falling to the outside of the turn, you are countersteering.

Even without the gyroscopic effect, which increases with the rotating speed of the wheels, you need to steer the contact patch away from the center of mass, in order to lean the bike toward the center of the turn and balance gravitational force with cornering force. If you were to only change body position, i.e. lean into the corner the bike would lean the opposite way to keep the center of mass the same. A bicycle does not have enough mass to counter body position changes, so you can steer it without directly turning the bars (try riding with no hands on a motorcycle and making it turn).

As speed increases, higher gyroscopic forces come in to play and less steering effort is required to tip the motorcycle. But you are always balancing force vectors by moving the contact patch to the outside of the turn, relative to the center of mass.

You are correct, it's called gyroscopic procession. As soon as the wheel starts moving, it will start developing gyroscopic principles, but I've noticed it pretty much come into full effect around 10mph. The principle of gyro procession states that when a force is applied on a gyro (or wheel, mostly anything that spins around a single axis) will act 90 degrees in the direction of rotation. Here's my feeble attempt at using the Paint in Windows to illustrate ;) :

Attachment 27549

Hopefully this makes sense.

RTO

I remember noticing it when I was a little kid about 7 or 8 years old riding my bicycle. It has always been natural to me and it surprises me that it is a controversial subject among some people.

the moment you lean the bike to steer, counter steering works..

So I would say 2mph or less even.

I don't think of it as counter steering, rather I think of it as pushing down (and somewhat forward) on the inside handle bar. This both causes the lean and counter steers, but again I am not thinking about counter steering, but rather about pushing down the inside of the lean.

Counter steering works at all speeds. At lower speeds its minimally perceptible, but in fact does happen.

As far as pushing the bars, pushing down is very much an inneficient way to turn the bars. Pushing/pulling and forward/back around the axis of rotation of the steering stem is more efficient and the effort is lessened.

Ride a tricycle - more natural and in harmony with natural reflexes to move/steer away from terror. Plus in most cases your speed will be lower. and from what I read in another thread, these superhawks routinely are going well into the 150's :) :)

Oh boy. This is one near and dear to my heart. The MSF has completely removed most reference to this term from their begginer curriculum for the very reasons the discussion above has created: a lot of over thinking and technical talk, resulting in confusion and getting all out of whack and uncomfortable for the everyday rider. So I can't resist putting my 2 cents in. I've seen many a rider get all screwed up trying to conceptualize this when they should be just riding. Not saying the info provdided is wrong, far from it. It's just that thinking about it while riding can get you killed. So here's the scoop: counter steering does not happen until 12 to 15 mph. Below that your steering like a tricycle. If you want to ride comfortably, forget all the physics and tech talk. Save that for the chalkboard. When riding just remember to press left (and lean left) to turn left and press right (and lean right) to turn right. Technically you can press on just about any part of the bike to make it lean, but it turns out the hand grip gives you the most instantaneous, precisely controlled response. For example, when racing in a straight line on my Hayabusa at over 180 mph, I make most of my steering adjustments with the foot pegs. Hand inputs at 198 mph are not the best idea! But for everyday street and track use, hand grip pressure alone is suffcient. Leaning with your hips, feet, etc are for things like fine tuning your line midcorner. But you can be perfectly happy just pressing and leaning with the grips. So don't over think it. Just press and lean and be blissfully ignorant of all the physics happening between your legs. Just my 2 cents.

One more thing and then I'll shut up. Don't confuse counter weighting with counter steering. Counter weighting is what you use to do a u turn in a tight space and hell yeah you better turn the wheel and lean at the same time, just hang your wieght off the opposite side from the turn so the bike don't fall over. Counter steering is the slight movement of the wheel in the opposite direction of the turn as the bike leans over. So press left means a slight turn of the wheel to the right, which actually initiates the lean to the left. that's why it's called 'counter' steering. Most of you are doing it, even if you don't realize it. That's why I don't want you to think about it too much. Just ride and let the physics happen. Over thinking screws you up.

Great responses from a bunch of experienced bikers. I've been riding since the 70's, but never realised what counter steering actually is until I got my 2003 Buell Lightning. With just 21 degrees of rake angle, you can literally turn the bike with your fingers and thumbs! I also practiced adjusting the fine line adjustments at speed using the balls of my feet on the pegs. It's a great learning experience and with almost 40 years of riding I'm still learning!
I still have the Buell and I added the VTR. Same physics though, and your comments support my inital thoughts.

Just a word of warning to newbies...we're talking here about the same energy of push input as moving a computer mouse..if you shove the bars you'll be on your arse in a heartbeat! Practice, practice, practice...but at high speed, it could safe your life..the change in direction is that impressive..

well, depends on speed - at very high speeds (100+) it takes a fair amount of force to turn the bars quickly and get leaned over fast

I agree with JDR - and would certainly never argue.

Anyone who has spent any appreciable time setting up and tipping it in does not thik about countersteering. It becomes an integral part of operating the machine.

I like the physics and the technical discussion - but it is for the chalkboard, not for analysis during riding.

Another good discussion.

LOL you can't be serious.

2:59ish in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc

OK, counselor, I'll have the court reporter strike that from the record. Technically it does happen at all speeds, but the vid does not totally contradict what I said: 12 to 15 is where it starts to work best. Also brings home my point about not overthinking it. Also hate those crappy old Ninja 250s/500s. Probably the worst steering bikes I've ever ridden. The college where I teach used to have a bunch of em and all the sportbike riders would gravitate to them over the Honda Nighthawks, only to find out they suck. Fortunately they all eventually died and were not replaced.

Sorry, I guess my drawing was a little technical and would be more useful on a chalkboard (and a hell of a lot easier to draw than on MS paint!). That's the darn teacher coming out in me.... now where's my bat, I need to beat it back...

Slide the butt, push the bar, lean the bike,turn. Easy enough. Anyone ever pull the bar instead. Ooh,exciting!

Basically, all you are doing is starting the bike to lean by pushing on the inside bar then quickly correcting the front tire for the turn.

RWhisen - Is that a real photograph of a sasquatch?