Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

Looking to replace my stock auto cam chain tensioners before the inevitable happens. The way I see it is I'm going to buy the manual tensioners anyway... either sooner or later. Since the APE tensioners aren't a "wear item" it wouldn't be too smart of me to wait and try to get more miles out of the stockers (which will eventually fail, just a question of when) since I'm going to replace them with something that won't wear out anyway... Might as well just do it next time I get paid...

So... I digress...
The question is:
Has anyone found a decent deal on these online? I've done some "googling" and didn't turn up much.
Anyone?
Thanks!
-Mike

There is plenty of time to buy one if it ever does start to fail.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

If i know I'm going to install them anyway why would I want to tempt fate and wait for them to fail hoping I'll be able to hear it as it happens???

That's a perfectly reasonable choice. My only point was that it won't be an instant or catostrophic failure. And you'll have plenty of time to order the part. It'll have to get really bad before causing engine damage.

Perhaps -- if you ever need it -- there will be a better product or updated Honda part. Perhaps you'll never even need it.

That's all.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

Point taken...
I agree that it *shouldn't* fail suddenly, but it seems that the general consensus is that it's a design flaw... That being the case it makes more sense to me to just go ahead and replace anything that's a known flaw with a known (relatively inexpensive) solution. (even if only for peace of mind while approaching redline).
I also don't mind wrenching... I actually enjoy it. So the added time of maintaining a manual tensioner is not an issue.

Was just wondering if anyone has come across a reasonably priced vendor recently.

Call this place. They sell them for 49.95, each, but don't list the specific Superhawk part (HT1000VTR)

http://www.streetandcomp.com/

Don't forget the gaskets.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

Will do.
Thanks, J!
-M

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

Not wanting to worry anyone but where do you guys get the idea that the cct's dont fail suddenly ? They can and do ! A couple of uk firestorm forum members can attest to that ! The previous owner of mine also had sudden failure which resulted in new heads,etc ! Parts paid for by Mr Honda but labour paid for by himself.
Change them when u can, and APE are the way to go, although some guys have modified the stock cct's.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

I agree 100%... which is why I'm looking to do this early, prior to any symptoms whatsoever.

Above, I said I agreed that it "*shouldn't*" fail suddenly. I'm not making any kind of assumptions about how much notice one of these will give when it's about to let go... and to be honest, for $100US in APE tensioners I don't care to find out.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

I recall reading of more than a couple of catastophic failures which resulted in engine dmg and also the kind of failure where you can hear it going which is why I performed this, imo, worthy mod.

Maybe its all in my head but when I was chasing my buds on the freeway 240kmh I used to just gringe that one was gonna let go. Now I just worry about blow outs and deer. :oops:

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

there is a problem with APEs too...this why I am not sure what to do...
Basically - 2 problems that I heard of:
1. With slightly overtightened APE CCTs tensioner blade get's worn quickly and breaks causing same kind of catastrophyc failure
2. I saw complaints that APE tensioned bolt breaks causing really bad damage (CC slacks immediately and bolt end fall into sump) because it is not to thick and under pressure all the time, and pressure is not along the bolt but slightly angled (tensioner blade touches bolt at angle - this is why Honda tensioners have that rounded metal cap on rod).

Honda CCT can get spring can break suddenly, but it does need time to back off, few minutes under load...

Kawasaki came up with nice idea of CCT, but then their CCTs fail too. I installed Kawasaki ZZR1100 CCT on my Storm, but kind of not sure if I should keep it there or no :(

Here is story about why ZZR CCT is better (it can not back off but exteding by calibrated spring):

http://tech.zn1300.com/cam-chain-tensioner.html

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

If, after all the discussion, you are interested in getting the APE tensioners, I have two that I will sell. I bought them last year, installed one for about 500 miles and then decided to go back to the stock tensioner after discussions with the local Honda shop mechanic. I think I paid about $105 for the pair. I will send them to you for $70.

I bought them for 38$ each on ebay brand new from APE. They always have them on ebay. I never heard about the APE breaking, it's news to me.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

That's a great write-up, Bluesman...
Thanks for posting it.

It's a tough call... I like the Idea of a manual tensioner, but stories of shearing that bolt off and dropping it into the sump is cause for concern.
I imagine (I hope) that is extremely rare... maybe even caused by other factors? It's hard to imagine a healty valve-train shearing that bolt off, but I suppose anything's possible.

If those stories are in fact true, there doesn't appear to be anything special about the bolt APE uses... at least nothing a little bit of machining couldn't reproduce. Might be worth getting the diameter, length and thread pitch of the bolt that APE uses and then cruising an industrial supply catalog for a high-grade replacement... (I haven't seen the tensioner in person, so I have no idea of the quality of that bolt... just playing devil's advocate here)

For those who haven't seen this site, it's invaluable for the do-it-yourself-er:
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Massive inventory, they sell to non-trade and they do small quantities... They'll usually sell you just 2 bolts, for example. Beats the hell out of buying a box of 100 when you only need 2.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

The APE tensioner bolts have a hemispherical knob on the end.

Right.
I was thinking of button-head, class 10.9 steel
There are tons to choose from.
I dunno.
I'd really have to see the tensioner, so this is totally hypothetical.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

I do not know if those stories of broken bolts is true or not - can only say that I found some stories on Inet.
I am not much really worried about bolt breaking etc., my fear is the fact that indeed incorrectly adjusted manual tensioner will do really bad things to tensioner blades and chain. To clarify: my fist car BMW E30 (rememeber those? 2.5 l inline six :)) died exactly for that reason - to much torque on aftermarket manual tensioner, broken tension blade, stuch cam chain etc.
That's one of 2 reasons (second being need to adjust) automatic tensioners replaced manual ones.
APE tensioners actually never targetted usual road use, but sport world, first being drag racing. According to APE.
APE almost default accessory for drag racing Busa's.

Now, imagine that APE adjusted after each race and that guys know what they doing (mechanics). How the I am supposed to guess if tensioner adjusted correctly? :(
When asked APE they says "get experienced mechanic etc.", when asking experienced mechanic he says "yeah, tighten up a bit, listen, feel etc.etc.etc."
When you buy something like APE CCT I'd like to hear "torque setting is ...12 Nm to get good generic load on CC" - now, none of people I know managed to get such answer from APE. And being graduated as engineer-mechanic I don't get why. :?:
Not really great R&D perhaps...
There is a way thou: somebody with dynamometer to measure original Honda CCT load, calculate what will it translates too in torque settings on APE bolt. When that happens - I'd go for APE. Of course it is personal choice, all above IMHO. :wink:
Oh, bugger...I just kind of managed to stop bugging myself about CCT treat...oh guys, it all comes back again...choices...choices...
BTW - good read on that is here:
http://www.morrowmarsh.ca/concours/t...ner-manual.htm

Adjustment on the APES is a snap.
You have the valve cover off to install.
you measure the defection of the chain before you remove the stock tensioner.
You set the APE tensioner to the same.
Verify cam timing.
Start the engine and loosen the APE tensioner till it makes noise (you'll feel it at the tensioner more than hear it)
Screw the tensioner back in till the noise just stops.
That's it.
And get this! I havn't touched them again in over 50.K miles and their still quiet.
Of course I put them on after the engine was well broken in.

The factory can't do that.

The automatics are a compromise.
Enough force to keep the chain tensioned,
Not so much to cause undo wear and fiction,

With manuals you set the tension percisely.
Without having a tension load on the chain.
Less friction, less wear, more HP and better fuel mileage.

Hell, I run stock exhaust, but I wouldn't run stock tensioners.

~Jeffers

so... how do you know when your cct is on it's way out?

You'll begin to hear a rattle when idling (like a plastic marble in a can) after a spirited ride. If you shut off your engine when you start it back up the rattle will be gone.

At first it will be occasional, then more frequent.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

I like the way caffeineracer tweeks the screw on his. It's probably the most accurate but when I did mine I wanted to get it as close as I could on a cold engine.

When I made the 'upgrade' to APEs and I wanted to be sure I didn't set the tension to high. After removing the original auto-CCTs I setup a jig over a scale to see how much pressure the CCT plunger has on the cam chain. It measured out to be between 4 lbs and 6 lbs depending on how far the plunger was retracted. Since mine were about in mid travel when they were removed I choose 5 lbs as a reasonable amount of pressure to set the manual APEs.
I then removed the Auto-CCts and mounted a manual APE CCT in the jig just to see if I could measure the torque needed to get 5lbs plunger pressure. The lowest setting on my inch-pound torque wrench was to high so I had to resort to gauging with a 'calibrated finger tension'.
I played with the APE in the jig long enough to get a feel for what 5lbs would feel like. With one APE mounted in the rear cyl and the other APE in my jig I'd then adjust the two until I was sure the one in the engine was the same.
I then wanted have a better way to reset the thing in the future when I couldn't rely on having my 'finger memory' so I just turned the adjusting screw in as far as I could on the engine-mounted APE and I found I could turn it slightly more than 1 full turn (fingers tension only). It was actually between 1 full turn and 1 turn + 1/6th. So from now on my readjustments will be simply to tighten it as far as I can (cold engine) and back off 1 turn.

Both my auto-CCts meassured the same spring plunger tension on the scale so I feel like this 5lb pressure is accurate (yep, I checked the scale calibration also).

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

My mechanic buddy and I just went though exactly this problem ie: specific tightening instructions. He called APE and it turns out the instructions printed on the back of the package are in error. Its all hashed out in the APE CCT thread in "Technical Discussion" They say to set them to 1/4" deflection when in fact its 1/4" TOTAL PLAY.

Re: Good source for APE manual cam-chain tensioners?
 

Well, what can I say - kudos to 99Hawk...that's exactly what I meant by R&D!
Now I actually can install APE without being scared to mess up engine.
And - Caffeineracer - thanks to you too - if you say that in 50 k you did not have to adjust it - that's cool, that means that Honda camchains holding well and do not actually need automatic tensioner as service intervals with APE would be longer than service intervals on engine!

Now, how to get APEs cheap in Europe...hmmm....

BTW - I tried to modify stock CCTs, and thou it was "quick and dirty" I managed to gt it to work. To explain it quickly - I filed "honda key" slots in CCT all way down to head of that screw inside, and slotted spring loaded ...thingy :) in and it have kind of flat scredriver end angled each half so that CCT screw can turn one way and can not turn back...
Unfortunately I am unable to make clean job with it because I simply got no proper CNC machines...
Another guy on VTR1000.org (UK portal) simply filed quite strong bolt to flat end, allowed CCT to settle, screwed bolt in that cap bolt thread until it got into slot in CCT screw and fixed it with counter nuts.
Lot of people in UK SHawk site had a go at CCTs :) and one of them is a pro who does drive in-drive out modification...but it's his know-how and I am not in UK so :(

Still, looks like APE is a simpler option.

File this in "If it ain't broke..."

werd!