Spools WITHOUT Welding???
08-13-2008, 09:35 AM
#1
Senior Member
SuperSport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Thornwood, NY
Posts: 817
Spools WITHOUT Welding???
Hey all....
I know this has been debated in the past, but I figured with as much turnover we've had here over the last year, all the nay-sayers have hopefully left!!! LOL!!!
I want to install spools for my rear stand as the "paddles/pads" on the stand I have now have worn the plastic coating off for the 3rd time, and it slips and slides metal on metal when I lift the bike.
So... has anyone just drilled - tapped, then bolted spools on lately? I know many scream to weld nuts in place, but I'm hoping not to have to go there. My other option is, I've recently bought a "Thread Setter" which I can drill into the swingarm then "rivet" in a threaded insert, hopefully minimizing the stress on the arm by taking the threads out of the equation. I'd think this may help maginally.
I have an old swingarm that's messed up, I'll probably cut it up a in a few places to see if there is a nice thick part somewhere on it to drill into, but I figured I'd ask anyway....
J.
I know this has been debated in the past, but I figured with as much turnover we've had here over the last year, all the nay-sayers have hopefully left!!! LOL!!!
I want to install spools for my rear stand as the "paddles/pads" on the stand I have now have worn the plastic coating off for the 3rd time, and it slips and slides metal on metal when I lift the bike.
So... has anyone just drilled - tapped, then bolted spools on lately? I know many scream to weld nuts in place, but I'm hoping not to have to go there. My other option is, I've recently bought a "Thread Setter" which I can drill into the swingarm then "rivet" in a threaded insert, hopefully minimizing the stress on the arm by taking the threads out of the equation. I'd think this may help maginally.
I have an old swingarm that's messed up, I'll probably cut it up a in a few places to see if there is a nice thick part somewhere on it to drill into, but I figured I'd ask anyway....
J.
08-13-2008, 09:55 AM
#2
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Warren, NH
Posts: 284
This is an off the wall idea, but why not tap the axle. I know mine is hollow and is the right size to take a M10 tap. The axle might be a little on the hard side to do this. If you goo slow I would think you could do it. Most of the Kawasaki buttons are M10 bolts.
08-13-2008, 10:59 AM
#5
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,116
I did it last year, used the Pit Bull 6mm spools but drilled them out and countersunk slightly the backsides (to clear the head of the rivnut) but used 1/4" hex-drivce cap screws (instead of the 6mm provided) and 1/4 inch plated steel rivet nuts (aluminum are available too from Fastenal) because I did not have a 6mm threaded mandrel for my setting tool. Positioned spools about 19mm up from bottom of SA and forward enough from axle (can check dimension). They work just fine. BTW, using the axle bolt means you cannot remove the rear wheel on the stand (what were they thinking?).
Hey all....
I know this has been debated in the past, but I figured with as much turnover we've had here over the last year, all the nay-sayers have hopefully left!!! LOL!!!
I want to install spools for my rear stand as the "paddles/pads" on the stand I have now have worn the plastic coating off for the 3rd time, and it slips and slides metal on metal when I lift the bike.
So... has anyone just drilled - tapped, then bolted spools on lately? I know many scream to weld nuts in place, but I'm hoping not to have to go there. My other option is, I've recently bought a "Thread Setter" which I can drill into the swingarm then "rivet" in a threaded insert, hopefully minimizing the stress on the arm by taking the threads out of the equation. I'd think this may help maginally.
I have an old swingarm that's messed up, I'll probably cut it up a in a few places to see if there is a nice thick part somewhere on it to drill into, but I figured I'd ask anyway....
J.
I know this has been debated in the past, but I figured with as much turnover we've had here over the last year, all the nay-sayers have hopefully left!!! LOL!!!
I want to install spools for my rear stand as the "paddles/pads" on the stand I have now have worn the plastic coating off for the 3rd time, and it slips and slides metal on metal when I lift the bike.
So... has anyone just drilled - tapped, then bolted spools on lately? I know many scream to weld nuts in place, but I'm hoping not to have to go there. My other option is, I've recently bought a "Thread Setter" which I can drill into the swingarm then "rivet" in a threaded insert, hopefully minimizing the stress on the arm by taking the threads out of the equation. I'd think this may help maginally.
I have an old swingarm that's messed up, I'll probably cut it up a in a few places to see if there is a nice thick part somewhere on it to drill into, but I figured I'd ask anyway....
J.
08-13-2008, 11:27 AM
#7
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,116
Wutz the use of using the rear axle to lift with a stand? You cannot remove the rear wheel or even adjust the chain. Yes you can lube the chain and stabilze the bike for work elsewhere but adding spools using rivnuts or welding is the most logical approach. Enuf said.
08-13-2008, 11:54 AM
#8
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Warren, NH
Posts: 284
My only concern would be that the size rod that would fit through would not be strong enough to support the bike. That hole is not that large of a diameter.
08-13-2008, 12:27 PM
#9
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,116
Again, why bother but a 5/16" steel rod is more than capable of supporting the rear; my spools are retained by only 1/4" threaded fasteners! Please read other posts before you post more comments or questions.
08-13-2008, 05:47 PM
#10
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SuperSport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Thornwood, NY
Posts: 817
I did it last year, used the Pit Bull 6mm spools but drilled them out and countersunk slightly the backsides (to clear the head of the rivnut) but used 1/4" hex-drivce cap screws (instead of the 6mm provided) and 1/4 inch plated steel rivet nuts (aluminum are available too from Fastenal) because I did not have a 6mm threaded mandrel for my setting tool. Positioned spools about 19mm up from bottom of SA and forward enough from axle (can check dimension). They work just fine. BTW, using the axle bolt means you cannot remove the rear wheel on the stand (what were they thinking?).
Thanks.
J.
08-13-2008, 07:23 PM
#11
evil man of nothing
MotoGP
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Posts: 4,484
I love options and finding alternate ways to do things. I'm just curious so I'm on the same page...why the aversion to just welding them on? It's quick and easy and I'm sure a good welder will make it look nice and can't be very expensive...I know they get $85 hr but it's a five minute job. Again I'm not a naysayer I'm just curious the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other.
08-14-2008, 06:23 AM
#12
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Alto, N.M.
Posts: 153
I'm using a length of steel rod that I turned down on one end to pass through the left side of the axle. It sticks out about 2.5" from either side of the swingarm and works well for chain and sprocket cleaning and lubing every 350 miles. Just have to remember to remove it after I'm done servicing the chain as I've already left one in place with spools and it disappeared during a ride-gggrrrr. But I do use a combo Pit Bull New Front and rear stand when pulling wheels for tire changes and chain replacement.
08-14-2008, 10:02 AM
#14
Senior Member
SuperSport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Thornwood, NY
Posts: 817
I love options and finding alternate ways to do things. I'm just curious so I'm on the same page...why the aversion to just welding them on? It's quick and easy and I'm sure a good welder will make it look nice and can't be very expensive...I know they get $85 hr but it's a five minute job. Again I'm not a naysayer I'm just curious the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other.
As for the garden hose... not a bad idea... unfortunalty my stand (LP brand) has a very flat "paddle" and not a tube like lug... I may be able ot find a fat hose at HD though...
J.
08-14-2008, 07:53 PM
#15
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,116
I’d jump up to the 8mm spools, I used 6mm because it was closest to ¼” but if I was to do it over I’d even go up to .325” (a bit over 8mm) and drill out the spools to fit.
http://www.pit-bull.com/Merchant2/me...ode=spool_kits
Here are the rivnuts I’d get… http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...ex?sku=0125715
I think the grip range is right
09-05-2008, 07:25 AM
#16
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Ok, I'm getting fed up with my rear stand slipping... So I was thinking of doing this..
Unfortunately I can't find the tools & rivnuts... All online providers are US based and refuse to deal with international customers (great service huh?)
Local souces are limited to 1000+ packages... Also a tool for 8mm and above are hard to find and ridiculously expensive...
The only local source I have found stocks only aluminium rivnuts, so my question is simple...
Will this work with a 6mm alu rivnut or would that be a bad idea??? It's a basic alu rivnut without any ridges...
Unfortunately I can't find the tools & rivnuts... All online providers are US based and refuse to deal with international customers (great service huh?)
Local souces are limited to 1000+ packages... Also a tool for 8mm and above are hard to find and ridiculously expensive...
The only local source I have found stocks only aluminium rivnuts, so my question is simple...
Will this work with a 6mm alu rivnut or would that be a bad idea??? It's a basic alu rivnut without any ridges...
09-05-2008, 07:39 AM
#17
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,116
Ok, I'm getting fed up with my rear stand slipping... So I was thinking of doing this..
Unfortunately I can't find the tools & rivnuts... All online providers are US based and refuse to deal with international customers (great service huh?)
Local souces are limited to 1000+ packages... Also a tool for 8mm and above are hard to find and ridiculously expensive...
The only local source I have found stocks only aluminium rivnuts, so my question is simple...
Will this work with a 6mm alu rivnut or would that be a bad idea??? It's a basic alu rivnut without any ridges...
Unfortunately I can't find the tools & rivnuts... All online providers are US based and refuse to deal with international customers (great service huh?)
Local souces are limited to 1000+ packages... Also a tool for 8mm and above are hard to find and ridiculously expensive...
The only local source I have found stocks only aluminium rivnuts, so my question is simple...
Will this work with a 6mm alu rivnut or would that be a bad idea??? It's a basic alu rivnut without any ridges...
http://fastenal.com/
09-05-2008, 08:08 AM
#19
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
As I'm not used to calculating material strengths and such... I'm more at home with curcuits...
The way I see it the amount of material is tha same, and in both cases the bolt is in there holding it all rigid and making a "solid piece" ie no open holes...
So I see no reason that using an aluminium rivnut would be a bad idea... but again... not my field of knowledge...
The way I see it the amount of material is tha same, and in both cases the bolt is in there holding it all rigid and making a "solid piece" ie no open holes...
So I see no reason that using an aluminium rivnut would be a bad idea... but again... not my field of knowledge...
09-05-2008, 08:19 AM
#20
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SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,116
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=94100
$17 just don't squeeze too hard or you'll bend the threaded mandrel rod but otherwise worked great. I used these rivnuts
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...ex?sku=0125677
and drilled slightly undersize to the prescibed .3906" OD, then used a fine rat tail file while checking for a very snug fit. Again, I drilled out to 1/4" ID and counterbored (releaved) the back of the Pittbull 6mm spools to clear the rivnut heads.
http://www.pit-bull.com/Merchant2/me...ode=spool_kits
So far, tight as a drum but you have to watch out for the spools hitting your cans depending on what your running.
09-06-2008, 07:00 AM
#22
Idiot
Squid
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 34
I have seen many bikes such as F4s and Super Hawks come into the shop with a twisted hole in the swingarm where a rivnut used to be. It's not whether the nut or swingarm is strong enough, it is the way that the forces are applied. The only way the rivnut would work is if you relieved the spool so that it does not contact the rivnut, but contacts the swingarm directly. Otherwise you are putting all that pressure on a rivet.
and as far as using a 5/16" rod through the axle, not only can you not work on the rear wheel but the rod would bend easily since it is not supported properly. The reason 6mm spools work is that the stresses on the bolt are tension, not shear and the spool is against the mounting surface. see automotive wheel studs for an example.
and as far as using a 5/16" rod through the axle, not only can you not work on the rear wheel but the rod would bend easily since it is not supported properly. The reason 6mm spools work is that the stresses on the bolt are tension, not shear and the spool is against the mounting surface. see automotive wheel studs for an example.
09-06-2008, 08:35 AM
#23
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Well... I did say it wasn't my field of expertise... But I did my stint of material science and applied forces at uni...
So I'm well aware of the difference, and will countersink the spools... If it is touching or not isn't that important, the important part is the you have the spool flush against the wall of the swingarm with tension to the bolt, that way supporting it and countering the "twisting" that occurs if it can bend upwards with the bolt as leverage...
The pin through the wheel actually works, but as you say it has the be properly supported at each end, as close to the spool as possible...
I tried a threaded rod with a filed down nut in the thick end... The obvious downside is when removing the wheel...
So I'm well aware of the difference, and will countersink the spools... If it is touching or not isn't that important, the important part is the you have the spool flush against the wall of the swingarm with tension to the bolt, that way supporting it and countering the "twisting" that occurs if it can bend upwards with the bolt as leverage...
The pin through the wheel actually works, but as you say it has the be properly supported at each end, as close to the spool as possible...
I tried a threaded rod with a filed down nut in the thick end... The obvious downside is when removing the wheel...
09-06-2008, 09:18 AM
#24
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
skokievtr: I looked around and found a tool localy with fittings for both metric and inches, about the same price, that should work well for me when using the alu rivnuts for all other applications... So I'm planning on buying that... Saves a lot on shipping...
But I would be eternally grateful if you could buy and send me the rivnuts from fastenal... But since I have 6mm spools and all things on this side of the pond tends to be metric, I think I'll prefer to use such rivnuts... Otherwise I'll just forget myself...
These should be very similar as the ones you suggested, but with metric threading... http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...ex?sku=0125713
Low profile head to make it easy to countersink the spools and all...
Since I would be working with a limited supply here, and I'm pretty sure I can find other uses for such, I think 20 pieces would be a good number, and they are small enough to go just put them in a USPS Priority Mail International Flat-Rate envelope at $11.35 wich ironicly is about the price of the rivnuts...
As far as I can figure there is a form to fill out (It's the postal office, why wouldn't there be a form?) ... but other than that straight forward...
I'm guessing here but... $0.41*20 + $11.35 + whatever fastenals shipping fee is, plus my gratitude would probably come to about $30 or soo...
But I would be eternally grateful if you could buy and send me the rivnuts from fastenal... But since I have 6mm spools and all things on this side of the pond tends to be metric, I think I'll prefer to use such rivnuts... Otherwise I'll just forget myself...
These should be very similar as the ones you suggested, but with metric threading... http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...ex?sku=0125713
Low profile head to make it easy to countersink the spools and all...
Since I would be working with a limited supply here, and I'm pretty sure I can find other uses for such, I think 20 pieces would be a good number, and they are small enough to go just put them in a USPS Priority Mail International Flat-Rate envelope at $11.35 wich ironicly is about the price of the rivnuts...
As far as I can figure there is a form to fill out (It's the postal office, why wouldn't there be a form?) ... but other than that straight forward...
I'm guessing here but... $0.41*20 + $11.35 + whatever fastenals shipping fee is, plus my gratitude would probably come to about $30 or soo...
09-08-2008, 08:58 PM
#25
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 203
Ok, I'm getting fed up with my rear stand slipping... So I was thinking of doing this..
Unfortunately I can't find the tools & rivnuts... All online providers are US based and refuse to deal with international customers (great service huh?)
Local souces are limited to 1000+ packages... Also a tool for 8mm and above are hard to find and ridiculously expensive...
The only local source I have found stocks only aluminium rivnuts, so my question is simple...
Will this work with a 6mm alu rivnut or would that be a bad idea??? It's a basic alu rivnut without any ridges...
Unfortunately I can't find the tools & rivnuts... All online providers are US based and refuse to deal with international customers (great service huh?)
Local souces are limited to 1000+ packages... Also a tool for 8mm and above are hard to find and ridiculously expensive...
The only local source I have found stocks only aluminium rivnuts, so my question is simple...
Will this work with a 6mm alu rivnut or would that be a bad idea??? It's a basic alu rivnut without any ridges...
Just a thought .....
09-08-2008, 09:01 PM
#26
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 203
I have seen many bikes such as F4s and Super Hawks come into the shop with a twisted hole in the swingarm where a rivnut used to be. It's not whether the nut or swingarm is strong enough, it is the way that the forces are applied. The only way the rivnut would work is if you relieved the spool so that it does not contact the rivnut, but contacts the swingarm directly. Otherwise you are putting all that pressure on a rivet.
and as far as using a 5/16" rod through the axle, not only can you not work on the rear wheel but the rod would bend easily since it is not supported properly. The reason 6mm spools work is that the stresses on the bolt are tension, not shear and the spool is against the mounting surface. see automotive wheel studs for an example.
and as far as using a 5/16" rod through the axle, not only can you not work on the rear wheel but the rod would bend easily since it is not supported properly. The reason 6mm spools work is that the stresses on the bolt are tension, not shear and the spool is against the mounting surface. see automotive wheel studs for an example.
I agree with what you say, and it "works great on paper", but the reality is that there is a guy "up here" (or at least used to be) that made spools that fit inside each end of the axle. He used aluminum. I have a set. They're awesome! They don't bend of show any signs or fault.
Unfortunately they also mean you can't remove the rear wheel if you need to AND they ummm, they uhhhh ..... you gotta remember to remove them before you go riding.
But they worked great when he used to make them!
09-09-2008, 07:41 AM
#27
Idiot
Squid
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 34
Yeah, spools that go into the axle are great as long as you don't need to remove the wheel which is basically a chain lubing stand which is fine, but not if you want to put a tire on, replace a sprocket, wheel bearing, etc.
On race bikes where spool mounts get ripped off all the time in crashes, some people get sick of welding them back on and just weld a nub on the bottom so the stand won't slip and it works great.
another option is to make something similar to the Gilles Tooling chain adjusters/lifters but without the adjusters.
On race bikes where spool mounts get ripped off all the time in crashes, some people get sick of welding them back on and just weld a nub on the bottom so the stand won't slip and it works great.
another option is to make something similar to the Gilles Tooling chain adjusters/lifters but without the adjusters.
09-16-2008, 03:39 PM
#28
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 139
It is very interesting and I was having same issue.
I am waiting order T-Rex frame slider unless decent way to mount spool slider.
Does anybody here can post pic of "WELDED" spool on swingarm?
Did you welded bolt on AL swingarm? I appreciate detail of your experience. Also Pros and Cons.
Thanks
I am waiting order T-Rex frame slider unless decent way to mount spool slider.
Does anybody here can post pic of "WELDED" spool on swingarm?
Did you welded bolt on AL swingarm? I appreciate detail of your experience. Also Pros and Cons.
Thanks
04-22-2009, 04:50 PM
#29
Carnivore
Back Marker
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 131
I too am very interested in adding spools to my Superhawk but am not 100% sure of the best way to go about it. So far, it seems that welding some nuts to the bottom of the swing arm is the best way to go.
04-22-2009, 05:58 PM
#30
Nose Picker
Back Marker
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tacoma, WA 98408
Posts: 130
I have T-Rex swing arm slider spools that I choose to Rivnut on they have been in use now for about 8 months and I put the bike on the stand every time im done with it for the day. I have not had any problems with them falling out, I did choose to go with a 3/8 or 8mm bolt to hold them in place.
