cct clatter to tight or to loose
02-15-2012, 08:35 PM
#1
Vinkate
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: newark,oh
Posts: 19
cct clatter to tight or to loose
Hiya i installed my ccts and am getting a Lil clatter from the front cylynder is this from being to tight or to loose? I got a good system worked out to adjust it in the frame so no big there just want to quiet the clatter just let me know if i should snug it up a bit or loosen it? Thx guys!
02-16-2012, 07:33 AM
#3
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 700
Vinkate, that's too loose. The proper way to adjust is to remove the head cover and adjust the play in the chain.
If you want to do it on, start the bike and slowly tighten until the chatter goes away and you are done.
Bandit, that is insane. There is no wear period on the oem parts. They have a scheduled period, but there have been reports of them breaking as low as 5k miles. Manual are safer and cheaper in the long run, you never need to replace them and you won't have to replace your head like you will if the oem fails.
If you want to do it on, start the bike and slowly tighten until the chatter goes away and you are done.
Bandit, that is insane. There is no wear period on the oem parts. They have a scheduled period, but there have been reports of them breaking as low as 5k miles. Manual are safer and cheaper in the long run, you never need to replace them and you won't have to replace your head like you will if the oem fails.
02-16-2012, 07:38 AM
#5
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: ABE PA
Posts: 423
I suppose...but I hear just as many people having zero problems as I do people having problems with leaking manual ones, not tight enough, ect. And the fact its manual...Idunno...I tend to believe things were designed a certain way for a reason
02-16-2012, 07:45 AM
#6
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nooksack WA
Posts: 834
"I suppose...but I hear just as many people having zero problems as I do people having problems with leaking manual ones, not tight enough, ect. And the fact its manual...Idunno...I tend to believe things were designed a certain way for a reason." Cheaper quite often trumps quality in manufacturing.
02-16-2012, 09:22 AM
#7
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
"I suppose...but I hear just as many people having zero problems as I do people having problems with leaking manual ones, not tight enough, ect. And the fact its manual...Idunno...I tend to believe things were designed a certain way for a reason." Cheaper quite often trumps quality in manufacturing.
You guys are all wack!
Big manufacturers have do design for the lowest common denominator. In other words, the less maintenance items, the better. Manual adjustment when you could have auto? Honda doesn't sell bikes based on being cheap or being hard to maintain. I don't have a problem adjusting manual ones, but most people want to put gas in and go. Check the oil? Pssshhhh, if I don't see that it's low, then it's not a problem, right? So they made auto CCT's, unfortunately there are so many pieces on the bike that nothing will be perfect, and the OEM are less than perfect. But they were made for a reason, especially when trusting every shmuck who buys a motorcycle to adjust a manual one with a process could destroy their engine.
Actually, manual ones have much fewer pieces and at an OEM production quantity level would be cheaper to make. And putting a little silicone on the threads in mine stopped the leaking... hardly a "problem" for me. That seems like saying that having to put a gasket on your covers is a problem or oil on your chain is a problem.
Also, the proper way to adjust is when the bike is running and at temp. Then you loosen the CCT's until they have a slight chatter. Then tighten them just until the chatter has gone away. This makes sure that the CCT is not too tight (which can cause problems) but is not rattling. You don't need to take the valve covers off... that actually is less precise than the idle adjustment way. But also less scary. I didn't trust myself so adjusted by taking the valve covers off the first few times.
Last edited by 7moore7; 02-16-2012 at 09:28 AM.
02-16-2012, 10:02 AM
#9
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
When they break, your chances of fixing that engine is about 50-50, otherwise you need a new engine... So in this case, I'd really advice fixing them before they break... But you can do it your way, engine rebuilds or replacement engines aren't that expensive...
02-16-2012, 10:12 AM
#10
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Menifee, CA
Posts: 1,082
I actually tend to agree. I bought my high mileage98 recently and from what I can tell the cct's are original and working fine.
I've never read a reasonable explanation of why the stock units fail only that they did fail and at relatively low mileage. Makes you wonder if there was a bad batch or production run.
Also if the warranteed failure rate was high enough it would have triggered a service bulletin or even a product update, I don't think it did either but I can't swear to it. Maybe someone from a dealership can check and advise.
Now having said all of that I am going to buy some manual cct's so if I ever need them there in my tool box!
02-16-2012, 10:24 AM
#11
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
Not trying to dick you around, but none of that is new thinking.
1) No correlation has been made to bad production runs. So many people have taken this approach only to replace their top end or whole motor that it's really funny. Gonna dig up links here in a second.
2) The bike was relatively low production and relatively old when they addressed the problem. Honda's version of a "sevice bulletin" at that point was changing the product number and re-labling it from a permanent item to one that needs to be replaced at regular undetermined intervals. That covers their butt in case of failure without explaining why they broke. Dealers know less about this than the forum does. They're too busy selling CBR's and VLX's.
3) Having them but not installing them: Most likely it will be too late. Do you put your seatbelt on right before you crash?
1) No correlation has been made to bad production runs. So many people have taken this approach only to replace their top end or whole motor that it's really funny. Gonna dig up links here in a second.
2) The bike was relatively low production and relatively old when they addressed the problem. Honda's version of a "sevice bulletin" at that point was changing the product number and re-labling it from a permanent item to one that needs to be replaced at regular undetermined intervals. That covers their butt in case of failure without explaining why they broke. Dealers know less about this than the forum does. They're too busy selling CBR's and VLX's.
3) Having them but not installing them: Most likely it will be too late. Do you put your seatbelt on right before you crash?
02-16-2012, 10:30 AM
#12
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
Do a search for CCT failure and make your own judgment call:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...roblems-27249/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...g-noise-26599/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...quences-25527/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...failure-16191/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...t-clank-25278/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...roblems-27249/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...g-noise-26599/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...quences-25527/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...failure-16191/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...t-clank-25278/
02-16-2012, 10:35 AM
#13
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
I actually tend to agree. I bought my high mileage98 recently and from what I can tell the cct's are original and working fine.
I've never read a reasonable explanation of why the stock units fail only that they did fail and at relatively low mileage. Makes you wonder if there was a bad batch or production run.
Also if the warranteed failure rate was high enough it would have triggered a service bulletin or even a product update, I don't think it did either but I can't swear to it. Maybe someone from a dealership can check and advise.
Now having said all of that I am going to buy some manual cct's so if I ever need them there in my tool box!
I've never read a reasonable explanation of why the stock units fail only that they did fail and at relatively low mileage. Makes you wonder if there was a bad batch or production run.
Also if the warranteed failure rate was high enough it would have triggered a service bulletin or even a product update, I don't think it did either but I can't swear to it. Maybe someone from a dealership can check and advise.
Now having said all of that I am going to buy some manual cct's so if I ever need them there in my tool box!
The reason you don't want to wait to long fixing it on the VTR is rather simple... On an IL4 engine, or more or less any engine except the VTR, a failed CCT isn't catastrophic, since there is enough tension on the chain to keep it following the sprocket, because there is always one cam keeping tension on the shared camshaft...
On the VTR, the 90 degree V with separate cylinder heads there is no tension at all if the CCT fails, making it a catastrophic failure, engine parts meet that aren't made to meet... Crunch, clank, pay money for parts please...
Add to that the fact that the VTR engine loads things more than an IL4 engine simply because of design and the size/mass of the cylinders and accompanying parts...
The root cause for the failures are simply that the CCT's don't get enough oil splashing into them (look at where they are located, it doesn't take a geniuos) which means the spring/ratchet mechanism is not lubricated properly... Then add a high number of repetitions, and the ratchet mechanism starts wearing, to the point where it can back out, leaving you with no tension... Either that, or the spring outrigth breaks...
My personal guess is that the failures with springs are the high mileage failures, and the "no oil = wear" are the low mileage one's but that's guesswork... The rest is facts...
The "bad" part of the OEM design is that there is no way of checking the wear of the CCT's... The only way to know if they are worn is to take them apart, at which point they are destroyed and need replacing anyway... But yeah, frequent swaps of OEM one's are a good way of fixing the problem... Trusting OEM one's that you know nothing about the condition of, is a good way to get to know the internals of your engine in an expensive way...
BTW, how do you tell if the CCT's are working fine? Nobody else can tell, so what's your secret? Blind faith?
02-16-2012, 10:42 AM
#15
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: ABE PA
Posts: 423
Hrca that was my thinking too...but tweety an 7moore have valid points...gettin me to rethink my position an what not...lol
But I wouldn't mind an engine rebuild...fun project...AND you find other, neglected, unknown problems...when I had to rebuild my bandit engine after I melted a piston, we cleaned the valve surfaces, adjusted clearances, polished conn rod sleeves, it was fun...ya learn a lot
But I wouldn't mind an engine rebuild...fun project...AND you find other, neglected, unknown problems...when I had to rebuild my bandit engine after I melted a piston, we cleaned the valve surfaces, adjusted clearances, polished conn rod sleeves, it was fun...ya learn a lot
02-16-2012, 10:43 AM
#16
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 700
My rear home made manual cct leaks. About 1 drop of oil every 15 days or so. Not enough to make me worried about it, and not enough to make me even seal the leak (although I will eventually, I'm just really lazy).
I bought my 98 with 18k miles, no chain chatter and ran great. Out of no where the cct failed, luckily I killed the engine immediately and saved my head and valves. You won't get a warning before it fails.
This is what I found when I opened up the failed oem cct
That spring applies pressure from the tensioner to the chain. If it breaks, no tension and your engine jumps time.
Do what you want with your bike, but don't say we didn't tell you so.
I bought my 98 with 18k miles, no chain chatter and ran great. Out of no where the cct failed, luckily I killed the engine immediately and saved my head and valves. You won't get a warning before it fails.
This is what I found when I opened up the failed oem cct
That spring applies pressure from the tensioner to the chain. If it breaks, no tension and your engine jumps time.
Do what you want with your bike, but don't say we didn't tell you so.
02-16-2012, 10:51 AM
#17
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Menifee, CA
Posts: 1,082
Guy's I'm not disagreeing that it's an issue with this model or that preventative maintenance isn't a good idea. But is it not true that you start hearing a clicking that perhaps some riders may not hear or pay attention to until it's too late.
I do agree with something Tweety said about I4's versus big twins that I really hadn't considered and most of my "tuning history" is with I4's. Also like I said I am ordering a set and if I don't blow her up before I rebuild her I will certainly change them out when I do.
I do agree with something Tweety said about I4's versus big twins that I really hadn't considered and most of my "tuning history" is with I4's. Also like I said I am ordering a set and if I don't blow her up before I rebuild her I will certainly change them out when I do.
02-16-2012, 10:51 AM
#18
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Hrca that was my thinking too...but tweety an 7moore have valid points...gettin me to rethink my position an what not...lol
But I wouldn't mind an engine rebuild...fun project...AND you find other, neglected, unknown problems...when I had to rebuild my bandit engine after I melted a piston, we cleaned the valve surfaces, adjusted clearances, polished conn rod sleeves, it was fun...ya learn a lot
But I wouldn't mind an engine rebuild...fun project...AND you find other, neglected, unknown problems...when I had to rebuild my bandit engine after I melted a piston, we cleaned the valve surfaces, adjusted clearances, polished conn rod sleeves, it was fun...ya learn a lot
02-16-2012, 10:54 AM
#19
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Menifee, CA
Posts: 1,082
My rear home made manual cct leaks. About 1 drop of oil every 15 days or so. Not enough to make me worried about it, and not enough to make me even seal the leak (although I will eventually, I'm just really lazy).
I bought my 98 with 18k miles, no chain chatter and ran great. Out of no where the cct failed, luckily I killed the engine immediately and saved my head and valves. You won't get a warning before it fails.
This is what I found when I opened up the failed oem cct
That spring applies pressure from the tensioner to the chain. If it breaks, no tension and your engine jumps time.
Do what you want with your bike, but don't say we didn't tell you so.
I bought my 98 with 18k miles, no chain chatter and ran great. Out of no where the cct failed, luckily I killed the engine immediately and saved my head and valves. You won't get a warning before it fails.
This is what I found when I opened up the failed oem cct
That spring applies pressure from the tensioner to the chain. If it breaks, no tension and your engine jumps time.
Do what you want with your bike, but don't say we didn't tell you so.
Last edited by HRCA#1; 02-16-2012 at 11:02 AM.
02-16-2012, 10:59 AM
#20
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 700
I heard a very loud metal to metal slapping when mine failed. I was going about 35 mph, 3500rpms. Some may hear it and react in time, some might not. I too thought "oh ill just replace them when I get to it", that almost cost me a lot of money
02-16-2012, 11:03 AM
#21
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
You're probably more experienced with the mechanics of a motorcycle than I am all things considered...
It just seems weird to me that a relatively small and cheap job is worth all the speculation. Whether or not you can hear the sound- some people obviously didn't- or guess from the mileage or think there was a production failure or run the bike right, or that Honda wouldn't put a bad piece of equipment on the market... All can be swiped away with manual CCT's or new OEM's. If you don't know, that's one thing, but one of the first things I learned when researching the bike was to look into replacing the CCT's. That was the short list of things to watch out for.
It just seems weird to me that a relatively small and cheap job is worth all the speculation. Whether or not you can hear the sound- some people obviously didn't- or guess from the mileage or think there was a production failure or run the bike right, or that Honda wouldn't put a bad piece of equipment on the market... All can be swiped away with manual CCT's or new OEM's. If you don't know, that's one thing, but one of the first things I learned when researching the bike was to look into replacing the CCT's. That was the short list of things to watch out for.
02-16-2012, 11:13 AM
#22
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
You're probably more experienced with the mechanics of a motorcycle than I am all things considered...
It just seems weird to me that a relatively small and cheap job is worth all the speculation. Whether or not you can hear the sound- some people obviously didn't- or guess from the mileage or think there was a production failure or run the bike right, or that Honda wouldn't put a bad piece of equipment on the market... All can be swiped away with manual CCT's or new OEM's. If you don't know, that's one thing, but one of the first things I learned when researching the bike was to look into replacing the CCT's. That was the short list of things to watch out for.
It just seems weird to me that a relatively small and cheap job is worth all the speculation. Whether or not you can hear the sound- some people obviously didn't- or guess from the mileage or think there was a production failure or run the bike right, or that Honda wouldn't put a bad piece of equipment on the market... All can be swiped away with manual CCT's or new OEM's. If you don't know, that's one thing, but one of the first things I learned when researching the bike was to look into replacing the CCT's. That was the short list of things to watch out for.
And then, when they found out the VTR eats valves on CCT failure, they recommended the CCt's be replaced regularily... That's about all they can do actually, sine they themselfes can't "test" the CCT's... The choice between new OEM's or manuals are just a matter of preference...
02-16-2012, 11:19 AM
#23
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nooksack WA
Posts: 834
You guys are all wack!
Big manufacturers have do design for the lowest common denominator. In other words, the less maintenance items, the better. Manual adjustment when you could have auto? Honda doesn't sell bikes based on being cheap or being hard to maintain. I don't have a problem adjusting manual ones, but most people want to put gas in and go. Check the oil? Pssshhhh, if I don't see that it's low, then it's not a problem, right? So they made auto CCT's, unfortunately there are so many pieces on the bike that nothing will be perfect, and the OEM are less than perfect. But they were made for a reason, especially when trusting every shmuck who buys a motorcycle to adjust a manual one with a process could destroy their engine.
Actually, manual ones have much fewer pieces and at an OEM production quantity level would be cheaper to make. And putting a little silicone on the threads in mine stopped the leaking... hardly a "problem" for me. That seems like saying that having to put a gasket on your covers is a problem or oil on your chain is a problem.
Also, the proper way to adjust is when the bike is running and at temp. Then you loosen the CCT's until they have a slight chatter. Then tighten them just until the chatter has gone away. This makes sure that the CCT is not too tight (which can cause problems) but is not rattling. You don't need to take the valve covers off... that actually is less precise than the idle adjustment way. But also less scary. I didn't trust myself so adjusted by taking the valve covers off the first few times.
Big manufacturers have do design for the lowest common denominator. In other words, the less maintenance items, the better. Manual adjustment when you could have auto? Honda doesn't sell bikes based on being cheap or being hard to maintain. I don't have a problem adjusting manual ones, but most people want to put gas in and go. Check the oil? Pssshhhh, if I don't see that it's low, then it's not a problem, right? So they made auto CCT's, unfortunately there are so many pieces on the bike that nothing will be perfect, and the OEM are less than perfect. But they were made for a reason, especially when trusting every shmuck who buys a motorcycle to adjust a manual one with a process could destroy their engine.
Actually, manual ones have much fewer pieces and at an OEM production quantity level would be cheaper to make. And putting a little silicone on the threads in mine stopped the leaking... hardly a "problem" for me. That seems like saying that having to put a gasket on your covers is a problem or oil on your chain is a problem.
Also, the proper way to adjust is when the bike is running and at temp. Then you loosen the CCT's until they have a slight chatter. Then tighten them just until the chatter has gone away. This makes sure that the CCT is not too tight (which can cause problems) but is not rattling. You don't need to take the valve covers off... that actually is less precise than the idle adjustment way. But also less scary. I didn't trust myself so adjusted by taking the valve covers off the first few times.
02-16-2012, 08:53 PM
#25
Vinkate
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: newark,oh
Posts: 19
Seriously i replaced mine - my bike has 25k- because it seems to be a common problem not like oh i heard a guy say he knew a guy that it happened but a common one like it will never happen to me then out of the blue bang motor blown. So factory or manual doesn't matter if you research enough you see that its a random out of no where hit you like a ton of bricks blow up. New bike or always wondering what if or being oblivious doesn't matter it may or can happen. The stock ccts are a problem and Honda brushed t under the rug saying its maintenance .... take your chances and roll the dice that's up to you but i have only heard sob stories of the auto ones failing a lot of sob stories and very very very few of manuals going bad. If one person says its bad its hear say if 1000 say its bad its probably true. IM a safe than sorry guy and err towards the mass as far as actual riders not poeple who sit n a chair and hide an unseen insight with paperwork. Do it or don't but roll the dice because with auto Cct it happens out of no where no noise or clatter just riding along and POW oh sheet heck with that game of the unknown
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
