Argument with a cager
05-30-2012, 02:43 PM
#1
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Squid
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 39
Argument with a cager
Unusally I am a pretty safe rider...always paying attention to most speed limits, not pulling wheelies and such, and always riding with safety in mind. Yesterday though I had a major glich/test of patience.
I was riding home on 95 just north of Philadelphia going south. Temps were about 90+ degrees, sun was out, and so was the traffic at select on/off ramps.
So I was cruising on down the road in the far left lane and I see a silver honda hatchback fly up the far right hand lane and get in line somewhere in front of me. He makes a couple spiratic moves and is driving like a dick. I just notice this and go about my own business.
A couple exits come up and the traffic comes to a stop. As I often do I will split lanes about 5 mph faster than traffic and jump back in as soon as traffic speed picks up again. So traffic is stopping and I jump on the dotted line and pass maybe 5 cars and this *** pulls in between lanes right in front of me and stops trying to keep me from passing. I race offroad so tight spaces are no big deal to me...I squeeeeeze through and tap his front bumper with my foot as a "thanks" for the dick move. Nothing that would cause damage, just a gut reaction to say "your an ***."
So traffic picks up again and I am cruising in the far left lane when the guy comes flying up behind me in the middle lane, swerves in front of me really close, almost looses control, than locks up his brakes trying to get me to either crash or hit him. I hit the brakes hard, but no panic. I was pretty pissed at this point and tried to pull up to his driver window and he cuts me off, so I try the other direction and he does the same thing.
I then got in the middle lane and when traffic stopped I stop right next to his window. He rolls it down and we exchange a few words...most I could not hear. I was also checking him out and seeing if he had any weapons I could see. Saw nothing. We then start back up and he cuts me off again and takes off swerving through traffic like crazy.
I follow behind a few car lengths back in case he tries his brake-check again. He is trying to get away from me in the worst way but cannot. Traffic stops a couple times and I just stair at him in his rear view.
At this point I am raging mad and not sure what I wanted to do. I did not see him pick up the phone at all to call anyone, and I was pretty sure he did not have any weapons he was reaching for (he was a bit metro). So I follow him...for about 15 miles. Just staying far enough away to not get caught up in any danger he might create, but close enough so that when traffic stopped I could split lanes and pull right in behind him.
We played this cat and mouse game for a while (15 miles) and my exit was coming up. I got in front of him in another lane (after weighing whether I thought he would ram me) and he jumped right in behind me up my ***. I motioned to him to get off at the next exit and then he started driving really slow, so much that I almost lost sight of him. I started to undo my helmet so I could take it off quick in the event a scuffle broke out he could not get control of my head. I had full intentions of kicking his *** however the exit came up and he opted to go another route.
I know this whole thing was pretty stupid, but I felt that he had a beef with me because I was on a bike and split lanes and when he slammed his brake on in front of me, I took that as an attempt to hurt me.
I also know the whole deal was dumb...bike vs car does not end well for the bike. I have kids to look out for, a concealed carry license I could lose if I get in an altercation, etc.. I am also a long standing member of the AMA and aware of our public image as bikers.
I am however not one to back down when faced with personal safety.
Hind site is always 20/20, but just wondering if something like this has ever happened to anyone else and how you handled it?
I was riding home on 95 just north of Philadelphia going south. Temps were about 90+ degrees, sun was out, and so was the traffic at select on/off ramps.
So I was cruising on down the road in the far left lane and I see a silver honda hatchback fly up the far right hand lane and get in line somewhere in front of me. He makes a couple spiratic moves and is driving like a dick. I just notice this and go about my own business.
A couple exits come up and the traffic comes to a stop. As I often do I will split lanes about 5 mph faster than traffic and jump back in as soon as traffic speed picks up again. So traffic is stopping and I jump on the dotted line and pass maybe 5 cars and this *** pulls in between lanes right in front of me and stops trying to keep me from passing. I race offroad so tight spaces are no big deal to me...I squeeeeeze through and tap his front bumper with my foot as a "thanks" for the dick move. Nothing that would cause damage, just a gut reaction to say "your an ***."
So traffic picks up again and I am cruising in the far left lane when the guy comes flying up behind me in the middle lane, swerves in front of me really close, almost looses control, than locks up his brakes trying to get me to either crash or hit him. I hit the brakes hard, but no panic. I was pretty pissed at this point and tried to pull up to his driver window and he cuts me off, so I try the other direction and he does the same thing.
I then got in the middle lane and when traffic stopped I stop right next to his window. He rolls it down and we exchange a few words...most I could not hear. I was also checking him out and seeing if he had any weapons I could see. Saw nothing. We then start back up and he cuts me off again and takes off swerving through traffic like crazy.
I follow behind a few car lengths back in case he tries his brake-check again. He is trying to get away from me in the worst way but cannot. Traffic stops a couple times and I just stair at him in his rear view.
At this point I am raging mad and not sure what I wanted to do. I did not see him pick up the phone at all to call anyone, and I was pretty sure he did not have any weapons he was reaching for (he was a bit metro). So I follow him...for about 15 miles. Just staying far enough away to not get caught up in any danger he might create, but close enough so that when traffic stopped I could split lanes and pull right in behind him.
We played this cat and mouse game for a while (15 miles) and my exit was coming up. I got in front of him in another lane (after weighing whether I thought he would ram me) and he jumped right in behind me up my ***. I motioned to him to get off at the next exit and then he started driving really slow, so much that I almost lost sight of him. I started to undo my helmet so I could take it off quick in the event a scuffle broke out he could not get control of my head. I had full intentions of kicking his *** however the exit came up and he opted to go another route.
I know this whole thing was pretty stupid, but I felt that he had a beef with me because I was on a bike and split lanes and when he slammed his brake on in front of me, I took that as an attempt to hurt me.
I also know the whole deal was dumb...bike vs car does not end well for the bike. I have kids to look out for, a concealed carry license I could lose if I get in an altercation, etc.. I am also a long standing member of the AMA and aware of our public image as bikers.
I am however not one to back down when faced with personal safety.
Hind site is always 20/20, but just wondering if something like this has ever happened to anyone else and how you handled it?
05-30-2012, 02:55 PM
#2
Former Superchicken Owner
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Carry a bag of 3/8" ball bearings in your jacket pocket for ********* like that. Just pull up a little bit and start feeding them out at highway speeds. The car driver has no clue where they are coming from as their radiator, windshield etc. etc. gets banged up.
05-30-2012, 03:12 PM
#3
Seasoned tech
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******** like that really **** me off. Coming from a state where splitting lanes is ilegal I'm not super comfortable with it and think people I see doing it are idiots, though it's usually when they are swerving in and out of traffic and just being asses themselves anyway, but that doesn't give him any reason to be an *** like he was. If it isn't legal there to split lanes then it was your ileagle actions that started the whole incident so you might want to take that into consideration as well. Still doesn't give him reason to threaten your life like he did but it shifts the blame a bit.
05-30-2012, 03:24 PM
#4
Senior Member
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kicking the guy's car wasn't the right choice I think...******** will always try to block you, just go around them and smile.
05-30-2012, 03:34 PM
#5
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Squid
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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Your correct GTS...I think it is illegal in PA but not too sure...I am from NJ. So technically I might have been out of line by lane splitting, however was doing so in a safe and sane manner so it shouldn't have been any of his business. If a cop saw me doing this, he would pull me over, not try to get me to wreck.
As far as lane splitting is concerned. I do it because I think it is actually much safer. You can see much farther ahead of you so if something is in the road(re-tread, ladders, a couch, 2X4's, etc...), you see it and can prepare for it much sooner than after it pops out from under the bumper of the car in front of you. Also, on 95 the traffic will often go from 60-70 to a dead stop as everyone slams on the brakes, you are able to see this ahead of time and slow down sooner as to not have to hit your brakes as hard and risk ending up a hood ornament of the guy in back of you. Just my two cents...doesn't mean it's right but I feel it is safer for me at least.
As far as lane splitting is concerned. I do it because I think it is actually much safer. You can see much farther ahead of you so if something is in the road(re-tread, ladders, a couch, 2X4's, etc...), you see it and can prepare for it much sooner than after it pops out from under the bumper of the car in front of you. Also, on 95 the traffic will often go from 60-70 to a dead stop as everyone slams on the brakes, you are able to see this ahead of time and slow down sooner as to not have to hit your brakes as hard and risk ending up a hood ornament of the guy in back of you. Just my two cents...doesn't mean it's right but I feel it is safer for me at least.
05-30-2012, 03:40 PM
#6
Retired- but not tired!
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I got caught up in similar situation years ago, but it was in a car and someone cut in front of me extremely close, twice. My reaction was just like yours and similar events ensued, with me ending up being followed by an unmarked police car to a shopping center. It's an unfortunate human reaction that's so easy to get trapped in once your adrenaline starts pumping. I think it's probably very primal survival instinct that doesn't really serve a good purpose in motor vehicles.
Now when I feel my chest tighten and I start tightly gripping the steering wheel or the clip-ons after someone makes a bone-head move near me, I try to slow down and let that driver get as far away from me as possible as soon as possible. I figure if they keep acting that way it will eventually take care of itself. Otherwise (like me) maybe they're just having the occasional bad day not thinking clearly and making some poor decisions.
I am not a policeman so I should not act like one.
Now when I feel my chest tighten and I start tightly gripping the steering wheel or the clip-ons after someone makes a bone-head move near me, I try to slow down and let that driver get as far away from me as possible as soon as possible. I figure if they keep acting that way it will eventually take care of itself. Otherwise (like me) maybe they're just having the occasional bad day not thinking clearly and making some poor decisions.
I am not a policeman so I should not act like one.
05-30-2012, 04:23 PM
#7
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I got caught up in similar situation years ago, but it was in a car and someone cut in front of me extremely close, twice. My reaction was just like yours and similar events ensued, with me ending up being followed by an unmarked police car to a shopping center. It's an unfortunate human reaction that's so easy to get trapped in once your adrenaline starts pumping. I think it's probably very primal survival instinct that doesn't really serve a good purpose in motor vehicles.
Now when I feel my chest tighten and I start tightly gripping the steering wheel or the clip-ons after someone makes a bone-head move near me, I try to slow down and let that driver get as far away from me as possible as soon as possible. I figure if they keep acting that way it will eventually take care of itself. Otherwise (like me) maybe they're just having the occasional bad day not thinking clearly and making some poor decisions.
I am not a policeman so I should not act like one.
Now when I feel my chest tighten and I start tightly gripping the steering wheel or the clip-ons after someone makes a bone-head move near me, I try to slow down and let that driver get as far away from me as possible as soon as possible. I figure if they keep acting that way it will eventually take care of itself. Otherwise (like me) maybe they're just having the occasional bad day not thinking clearly and making some poor decisions.
I am not a policeman so I should not act like one.
I know this stuff happens all the time and its real easy to go all commando on the person, but in the end it's just not worth it. If your really pissed at them for almost killing you, a few raps from your carbon knuckled gloves will leave a nice little permanent reminder on their bodywork to not do that **** again.
It may be a lot easier to get away on a motorcycle from a car. But it sure is easy in a car to make our motorcycles into a speed bump. Also, when people do the whole road rage thing. They can act really stupid and make choices that can **** you up for the rest of your life.
My advice is to just drop way back so they no longer know you are following them. Then follow them to their home or place of work. Then you can stalk them and start doing the whole bunny boiler routine to them! Jesus, they just cut you up in traffic, why should you not hold their kids and wife ransom, make them pay I tell you!!!
LOL, just kidding.
Best advice is to just ride/walk away. I learnt this the hard way. It's not being a coward, just being smart.
05-30-2012, 07:13 PM
#8
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Squid
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I knew it was a bone head move on my part but the adrenaline was flowing. I'm not a hot head in the least, if anything I am always more relaxed. Just needed to vent.
LOL @SpeedKelly...I was thinking the whole time about the aluminum knuckles on my icon gloves and what they might do to a window or cheek bones.
LOL @SpeedKelly...I was thinking the whole time about the aluminum knuckles on my icon gloves and what they might do to a window or cheek bones.
05-30-2012, 07:43 PM
#9
MandownMertech
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Gotta say he was TOTALLY out of line and an idiot deserving a beating BUT maybe you shouldn't illegally lane split. I guarrantee if you hadn't been doing that as much of a shitbag driver as he was it would not have become an issue.
If it makes you feel any better it's legal to split lanes in Cali and I run across dickbags like the honda driver in your story quite often.
I've had multiple times where drivers purposely try to run me off the road because theyre jealous/mad/ stupid. whatever the case the'yre jealous or unaware of a motorcyclists right to lane split (safely) in california.
If it makes you feel any better it's legal to split lanes in Cali and I run across dickbags like the honda driver in your story quite often.
I've had multiple times where drivers purposely try to run me off the road because theyre jealous/mad/ stupid. whatever the case the'yre jealous or unaware of a motorcyclists right to lane split (safely) in california.
05-31-2012, 03:19 AM
#10
Retired- but not tired!
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It probably didn't hurt I have a spotless record driving, no police record, and I was coming home from work so I was dressed professionally.
I was very, very lucky so I will not trust that situation to luck again. Nobody's that lucky. Apologies to OP for thread jack.
05-31-2012, 07:32 AM
#11
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Squid
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No sweat on the thread jacking...it's all relative and fun conversation.
VTR...this is off topic as well...but the reason I would take my helmet off is from football experience. If you have ever been subject to a face mask penalty you know what I am talking about. If you grab a facemask/helmet, etc...you basically have complete control of that person's head. The body will follow the head sort of just like a horse. So while you are safer from impacts, complete control is lost as your neck is not as strong as an arm swinging it around.
VTR...this is off topic as well...but the reason I would take my helmet off is from football experience. If you have ever been subject to a face mask penalty you know what I am talking about. If you grab a facemask/helmet, etc...you basically have complete control of that person's head. The body will follow the head sort of just like a horse. So while you are safer from impacts, complete control is lost as your neck is not as strong as an arm swinging it around.
05-31-2012, 10:12 AM
#12
Seasoned tech
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Actually based on his testimony the fact is that if he wasn't splitting illegally this wouldn't have started in the first place. I'm not saying it's his fault or the guy had the right to do what he did. Just saying the small thing that got the ball rolling was the illegal act and it just kept escalating from there. I’m in no way trying to dog the OP and saying it was all his fault, just looking at the facts as presented from both sides.
Another thought that occurred to me is many times people will move to one side of the lane or the other, usually to the left side, so they can see around the cars in front of them to see if they can see what is causing the backup or for how far it extends. Not saying this is likely what he was doing but just saying it’s a possibility that this is all it was and the OP’s actions of kicking his bumper again could have been what started the escalation. People don’t expect there to be a motorcycle rolling up between lanes, especially in states where it’s illegal, so they don’t really look in the mirror to see if a motorcycle is coming up from behind before changing positions in their lane.
As for people policing things if when ******** drive past a lane of traffic to cut in at the end, or don’t keep right to pass the person they are cutting off would not let them in or the person they are blocking in the left lane would flash their passing lights at them to let them know they’re being asses more maybe those people will start to get the hint and get in the back of the line and start moving over. But because everyone else is enabling them they continue to do it. Now don’t take that as I’m saying people should act like this guy did because that is out of line. Just saying there are ******** out there that need to learn some respect and consideration of others, and others out there that need to quit being enablers.
05-31-2012, 11:49 AM
#13
Retired- but not tired!
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05-31-2012, 12:27 PM
#14
Senior Member
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I had a similar incident when I used to commute between NNJ & NYC on the FDR. Some guy blocked me, but I got around him, but the next guy, a Hasidic Jew, thought it was a good idea to do the same & I eventually rolled up & his mistake was having his window down. I stopped next to him & punched him in the head thru his window - **** him & **** U for saying its raceruss shouldn't split. If everyone rode moto's we wouldn't have traffic. This country is a joke when it comes to peeps with proper driving habits/ability.
When I took my auto test in NJ (I think its still the same test) U did it in a parking lot. Hmm, lets see the most densely populated state in the USA & people take a driving test in a parking lot. What a ******* joke.
I've been to Europe 3 times & motos pretty much ride where ever they want, I think a bit dangerous, but cagers move out of their way.
Kinda like when ur in the fast lane & people R moving faster than U & U think its fast enough & don't move over - NOT. Its actually a law in the US - Stay right, Pass left
Oh & use ur signals too, it comes standard w/ every car, I swear they do.
05-31-2012, 01:06 PM
#15
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Which is the reason most drivers would intentionally cut you off... it's the whole "I'm following the law so you damn well better be too. Except for the speed limit and texting ones but those don't count". Forgetting that the basis for laws is (or at least used to be) keeping everyone safe and freedoms protected. Could you imagine how cool it would be if the mindset were to pull in front of another motorist to slow them down so they don't crash into an unseen obstacle?
On a similar note, punching/kicking/yelling at one of these motorists cannot possibly teach any kind of lesson. Has that ever worked? Has anyone who is driving along had their door kicked and thought "Oops, thanks for the warning, thous hast taught me to be nicer to fast, loud streetbikes. I heed to your warning and will be more careful in the future". Nope. you just taught them to not miss next time (or, if they're one of the smart ones, create ridiculous laws, insurances and cultural bias against motorcycles)...
Or you can just laugh off the minor incidences knowing you survived another day on the tarmac battlefield by evasive maneuvering and know that there're cages all over who just droned passively through their day with little stimulation and reliance on their skills for their own safety.
05-31-2012, 01:36 PM
#16
Seasoned tech
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Which it sounds like Mr. nnjhawk02 has. Forgive me if I took what you said wrong but it sure sounded to me like you feel entitled to be able to do what ever you want including split lanes even if it's not legal in your state, and punching someone in the head. Yeah I've wanted to do that before with some of the a-holes around here but I would never feel so entitled as to actually hit someone like that. Now if they actually hit me on my bike or took me out now that's another story.
I will say I agree with you in that people need to move the hell over and keep right except to pass. There is NO SUCH THING as the "fast lane". It's a passing lane PERIOD! And yes people need to use their friggin blinkers!! That one drives me nuts too. As well as they need to turn into the lane nearest them when turning NOT 2 or 3 lanes out. I could go on and on and on!
I will say I agree with you in that people need to move the hell over and keep right except to pass. There is NO SUCH THING as the "fast lane". It's a passing lane PERIOD! And yes people need to use their friggin blinkers!! That one drives me nuts too. As well as they need to turn into the lane nearest them when turning NOT 2 or 3 lanes out. I could go on and on and on!
05-31-2012, 01:45 PM
#17
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Or just a general sense of entitlement.
On a similar note, punching/kicking/yelling at one of these motorists cannot possibly teach any kind of lesson. Has that ever worked? Has anyone who is driving along had their door kicked and thought "Oops, thanks for the warning, thous hast taught me to be nicer to fast, loud streetbikes. I heed to your warning and will be more careful in the future". Nope. you just taught them to not miss next time (or, if they're one of the smart ones, create ridiculous laws, insurances and cultural bias against motorcycles)...
Or you can just laugh off the minor incidences knowing you survived another day on the tarmac battlefield by evasive maneuvering and know that there're cages all over who just droned passively through their day with little stimulation and reliance on their skills for their own safety.
On a similar note, punching/kicking/yelling at one of these motorists cannot possibly teach any kind of lesson. Has that ever worked? Has anyone who is driving along had their door kicked and thought "Oops, thanks for the warning, thous hast taught me to be nicer to fast, loud streetbikes. I heed to your warning and will be more careful in the future". Nope. you just taught them to not miss next time (or, if they're one of the smart ones, create ridiculous laws, insurances and cultural bias against motorcycles)...
Or you can just laugh off the minor incidences knowing you survived another day on the tarmac battlefield by evasive maneuvering and know that there're cages all over who just droned passively through their day with little stimulation and reliance on their skills for their own safety.
i once swerved across 2 lanes of traffic going my way and one and a half lanes of traffic going the other way and JUST managed to avoid the car that pulled out into the road and the wrong lane. the car took off and was gone but a cop happened to see what happened and pulled me over just to check and make sure i was o.k. he was like 'dude, you rock'
even when you do manage to catch up to these idiots, you will never be able to say anything that will make them change what they are. take a twinkie from the fat lady, she will be mad at you and get another twinkie.
05-31-2012, 02:13 PM
#18
Senior Member
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if your gloves have carbon fiber or metal knuckles, one good punch will sheer a side mirror clean off most cars. I'm not sayin, I"m just sayin. this information is only meant for educational purposes.
05-31-2012, 02:35 PM
#19
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knocking the tar out of 1 person or breaking off one cagers mirror may make you feel better, or get you thrown in jail.
if you spend 15 minutes accomplishing this task, all you have done is reaffirmed said douche bags disdain for motorcyclists, and now your out 15 minutes of your life, and a pair of gloves, and whatever else you have gotten incriminating evidence on.
05-31-2012, 03:18 PM
#20
Senior Member
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I was splitting behind a city motor cop a few weeks ago. As were coming up to a light, some trophy wife sees the bikes coming and hugs the line to try to block us. I don't know if she didn't realize it was a cop, but he rode by, stuck out his elbow, and demolished the mirror. The best part was his **** eating grin he gave me at the light.
05-31-2012, 03:26 PM
#21
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05-31-2012, 03:37 PM
#22
Seasoned tech
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I was splitting behind a city motor cop a few weeks ago. As were coming up to a light, some trophy wife sees the bikes coming and hugs the line to try to block us. I don't know if she didn't realize it was a cop, but he rode by, stuck out his elbow, and demolished the mirror. The best part was his **** eating grin he gave me at the light.
06-01-2012, 05:56 AM
#23
Senior Member
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I'll admit me punching the guy in the head was extreme, but people - I'm taking the risk of riding a moto & lane splitting. U R not the World's policeman, leave it to others. I know I can be stopped & ticketed for my behavior. Have U ever gone over the speed limit???? Yes thats a law too - or do those here that R ranting against splitting only want specific laws enforced?
Anything is legal, until U get caught!
This is kinda like the religious right, who want to dictate to U & me what goes on in my bedroom - **** Off & leave me alone.
Have a Nice Day & Be Safe Out there
Anything is legal, until U get caught!
This is kinda like the religious right, who want to dictate to U & me what goes on in my bedroom - **** Off & leave me alone.
Have a Nice Day & Be Safe Out there
06-01-2012, 06:49 AM
#24
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I'm not saying don't punch the guy. I'm just saying you may want to reconsider your reasoning for doing so.
06-01-2012, 09:23 AM
#26
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Rage
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I knew it was a bone head move on my part but the adrenaline was flowing. I'm not a hot head in the least, if anything I am always more relaxed. Just needed to vent.
LOL @SpeedKelly...I was thinking the whole time about the aluminum knuckles on my icon gloves and what they might do to a window or cheek bones.
LOL @SpeedKelly...I was thinking the whole time about the aluminum knuckles on my icon gloves and what they might do to a window or cheek bones.
06-01-2012, 11:22 AM
#27
Senior Member
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I would leave a helmet on. It is protection, and taking it off to use as a weapon can make your troubles worse if the law gets involved. Not to mention any weapon can be taken and used against you. If I have my helmet, armored gloves, and armored jacket on I am less vulnerable than my opponent and my only real weak spots are my gut, legs, and throat. Id take a good gut shot over knuckles to the face.
06-01-2012, 01:24 PM
#28
Out of my mind, back in 5
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I would leave a helmet on. It is protection, and taking it off to use as a weapon can make your troubles worse if the law gets involved. Not to mention any weapon can be taken and used against you. If I have my helmet, armored gloves, and armored jacket on I am less vulnerable than my opponent and my only real weak spots are my gut, legs, and throat. Id take a good gut shot over knuckles to the face.
On the other issue... I'm a fly under the radar kind of guy... I just get the plates by looking at my helmet cam, and then I call them up when I get home and ask them if they had a nice little ride... Nine times out of ten, they become pretty polite when I tell them I have all of it on video, and would they prefer to apologise or get ticketed when I hand the video to the cops... So far only two opted for the ticket... Both of which regretted it when they did actually got a ticket... I don't like cops that much, but they are useful for some things...
06-01-2012, 10:32 PM
#29
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Someone above brought up that I might have been passing on the left and the guy might have been hugging the dotted line or trying to peak further up the lane. I was passing on the right of him between the far left and middle lanes. He was not shifting lanes as he pulled his car halfway between lanes to block the whole line.
I guess the kick was not a warning to him to look out for other bikes. It was more of a "thanks for being a SH."
The real messed up thing is, usually when I am in PA I carry my G19 or SD40. I wouldn't pull it out over something like this, but if I was some sort of psycho he might have been in serious trouble.
I guess the kick was not a warning to him to look out for other bikes. It was more of a "thanks for being a SH."
The real messed up thing is, usually when I am in PA I carry my G19 or SD40. I wouldn't pull it out over something like this, but if I was some sort of psycho he might have been in serious trouble.
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CentralCoaster
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08-05-2009 07:01 PM
