Why regulator Rectifiers get so hot, and why they die unpredictably.
#1
guru of things sparky
SuperSport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Grand Prairie , Texas
Posts: 599
Why regulator Rectifiers get so hot, and why they die unpredictably.
This is a very condensed, shortened but complete explanation of why regulator rectifiers are such unpredictbly flaky items.
THis also should bring them into the light as something needing periodic inspection ... like your tire pressure.
The nature of charging systems generally offers two paths.
One creates constant voltage, and varying current.
The other works inversely to that, being constant current, varying voltage.
The 1st one has more drag but works better at low RPM.
THe last one is what we all have, a constant current system, and works
better at higher RPM and offers less electro-mechanical drag.
The trade off is the difficulty of regulating those voltage swings.
Dropping voltage makes heat. Dealing with tons of it creates engineering challenges.Heat degrades things.( think Turkey in the oven) makes them softer and more crunchy at the same time.
For electronics this makes things fail obviously.
In our three phase AC generating apparatus, theres really only 3 parts.
The Stator with its magnet rotor, and two electronic items, the rectifier and the regulator. In most all cases except one These two items are married together within centimeters of each other, and one bakes itself and the other, also .... mercilessly.
The regulators sole ( or 'soul' after it dies ) purpose in life is to keep the rectifier from sending anything over 16 volts to the battery.
It simply sleeps until the threshold is reached and clicks on.
Advanced ones have a taper as they activate. (shhh)
The rectifier is really only 6 diodes in basic form. 2 diodes per phase, creates a nice DC pulse to the battery, via the regulator. They are kind of dumb, doing a boring job of getting real hot while just slicing up sine waves into 3rds. They are intuitive as a peice of rock salt.
The regulator watches the voltage in the system,allowing anything under a maximum setting to pass straight to the battery from the rectifier.
The regulator is where theres any intelligence, or could be.
when voltage exceeeds the limit set by the regulator something interesting happens where you can also see the difference in traditional regulator rectifiers and the newer comming generation.
When the regulator senses the peak has been exceeded, it fires the gate on an SCR that simply ggrounds out one of the 3 phases comming from the stator. Brutally simple, this direct short to ground creates massive heat in the SCR. when the SCR fails, you have runaway voltage.
The SCR ( sillicon controlled rectifier ) is like a simple 3 pole relay with no moving parts. In our circuits they are gateways straight to hell... literally.
Its a path to ground and heat is the product. On cheap R/R models that only ground one set of windings of the stator, the stator gets damaged much sooner. Advanced models of R/R have an SCR on each stator winding to evenly ground out the stator, creating an even heat distribution pattern in the windings themselves. This makes a longer lasting stator.
None of this matters at all of course if you ride slow like a granny.
Regulator circuits fail too, getting a career baking (BBQ) by riding piggyback on hot rectifiers. when they fail it can go two ways.
Remember the regulator is the brains of the system.
Mode A is where the regulator fails to fire the SCR, closing the circuit.
Mode B is where the regulator holds the gate open, and fries stuff by overcharging.
I prefer mode A.
Your frame is a massive capacitor (electrolytic at that).
Connect your negative 1st, and dont spark your positive cable ot the resulting spike in voltage will pop any cheap or stock R/R.
And if it dont kill it good the 1st time, you can rest assured its been damaged.
About heat distribution.
THe rectifier diodes (6) make most of the heat, 70% at least.
But those SCRS when you are spinning the motor fast are giving quite a bit. One of my discoveries, by chance was how only 3 of the 6 diodes make any heat in certain arrangements. I wont spam or give away hard earned secrets, but theres a design comming that creates half the heat at full power load based on this data.
One more step beyond that,A patent application has been submitted on a regulator circuit that simply disconnects the stator from the rectifier instead of grounding it out and making heat.
Im currently riding the Dallas area highways with one of these prototypes.
If you see me pushing my bike, rest assured Im working on it.
So, unless you live in a cave, you know how much of a pain in the **** these little shitboxes can be.
They all have a limited service life, like a tire or a chain.
Ride real fast,and it dies faster. Its pretty simple in that regard.
Oh and keep them cool ...
nevermind
Im tired and might add more stuff Im forgetting after I read this tomorrow.
THis also should bring them into the light as something needing periodic inspection ... like your tire pressure.
The nature of charging systems generally offers two paths.
One creates constant voltage, and varying current.
The other works inversely to that, being constant current, varying voltage.
The 1st one has more drag but works better at low RPM.
THe last one is what we all have, a constant current system, and works
better at higher RPM and offers less electro-mechanical drag.
The trade off is the difficulty of regulating those voltage swings.
Dropping voltage makes heat. Dealing with tons of it creates engineering challenges.Heat degrades things.( think Turkey in the oven) makes them softer and more crunchy at the same time.
For electronics this makes things fail obviously.
In our three phase AC generating apparatus, theres really only 3 parts.
The Stator with its magnet rotor, and two electronic items, the rectifier and the regulator. In most all cases except one These two items are married together within centimeters of each other, and one bakes itself and the other, also .... mercilessly.
The regulators sole ( or 'soul' after it dies ) purpose in life is to keep the rectifier from sending anything over 16 volts to the battery.
It simply sleeps until the threshold is reached and clicks on.
Advanced ones have a taper as they activate. (shhh)
The rectifier is really only 6 diodes in basic form. 2 diodes per phase, creates a nice DC pulse to the battery, via the regulator. They are kind of dumb, doing a boring job of getting real hot while just slicing up sine waves into 3rds. They are intuitive as a peice of rock salt.
The regulator watches the voltage in the system,allowing anything under a maximum setting to pass straight to the battery from the rectifier.
The regulator is where theres any intelligence, or could be.
when voltage exceeeds the limit set by the regulator something interesting happens where you can also see the difference in traditional regulator rectifiers and the newer comming generation.
When the regulator senses the peak has been exceeded, it fires the gate on an SCR that simply ggrounds out one of the 3 phases comming from the stator. Brutally simple, this direct short to ground creates massive heat in the SCR. when the SCR fails, you have runaway voltage.
The SCR ( sillicon controlled rectifier ) is like a simple 3 pole relay with no moving parts. In our circuits they are gateways straight to hell... literally.
Its a path to ground and heat is the product. On cheap R/R models that only ground one set of windings of the stator, the stator gets damaged much sooner. Advanced models of R/R have an SCR on each stator winding to evenly ground out the stator, creating an even heat distribution pattern in the windings themselves. This makes a longer lasting stator.
None of this matters at all of course if you ride slow like a granny.
Regulator circuits fail too, getting a career baking (BBQ) by riding piggyback on hot rectifiers. when they fail it can go two ways.
Remember the regulator is the brains of the system.
Mode A is where the regulator fails to fire the SCR, closing the circuit.
Mode B is where the regulator holds the gate open, and fries stuff by overcharging.
I prefer mode A.
Your frame is a massive capacitor (electrolytic at that).
Connect your negative 1st, and dont spark your positive cable ot the resulting spike in voltage will pop any cheap or stock R/R.
And if it dont kill it good the 1st time, you can rest assured its been damaged.
About heat distribution.
THe rectifier diodes (6) make most of the heat, 70% at least.
But those SCRS when you are spinning the motor fast are giving quite a bit. One of my discoveries, by chance was how only 3 of the 6 diodes make any heat in certain arrangements. I wont spam or give away hard earned secrets, but theres a design comming that creates half the heat at full power load based on this data.
One more step beyond that,A patent application has been submitted on a regulator circuit that simply disconnects the stator from the rectifier instead of grounding it out and making heat.
Im currently riding the Dallas area highways with one of these prototypes.
If you see me pushing my bike, rest assured Im working on it.
So, unless you live in a cave, you know how much of a pain in the **** these little shitboxes can be.
They all have a limited service life, like a tire or a chain.
Ride real fast,and it dies faster. Its pretty simple in that regard.
Oh and keep them cool ...
nevermind
Im tired and might add more stuff Im forgetting after I read this tomorrow.
Last edited by Circuit_Burner; 06-23-2009 at 12:10 AM.
#7
guru of things sparky
SuperSport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Grand Prairie , Texas
Posts: 599
#8
guru of things sparky
SuperSport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Grand Prairie , Texas
Posts: 599
They are available now, in essence, but not officially as Im a 2 person operation and can only assemble 5 or 6 a night.
I sold a forum member -pauldast one of the new ones, and its been working fine. Its pre-production grade, way past prototype.
Tucker Rocky and Parts Unlimited want us to be able to supply hundreds at the bare minimum to start and to get in their books. A big gap to fill, but you have to start somewhere.
HawkRider is also getting the newest, I held off sending him one since these were even better and hes going to probably critique it thoroughly.
Plus the new box packages look nice. The box it comes in needs to look cool.
Until now they got delivered in an anti-static bag taped shut.
Heres the pic of Pauls getting its fire test before rushing it out to him next day air.
It had extra long leads for the mounting position he wanted. His went into the front fairing I think. And he probably had the regulator indicators facing him.
Pauls was a Gemini rectifier (dual) mated to a Heracles remote regulator. This config may just become its own series.
Mine has the regulator with its indicators on one end of the bike (windscreen), and the rectifier way in the back tail section with a fan. Same stuff, different arrangement.
Last edited by Circuit_Burner; 06-23-2009 at 01:10 PM.
#9
If you wanted to, you could simply go to Fry's and buy a heatsink and 12v fan combo.
Then attach the heatsink, and hook the fan so it turns on with the ignition. Would not be 100% effective, but certainly more effective than what is stock.
If you already have the rectifier with the heatsink, then simply attach a fan to it.
Then attach the heatsink, and hook the fan so it turns on with the ignition. Would not be 100% effective, but certainly more effective than what is stock.
If you already have the rectifier with the heatsink, then simply attach a fan to it.
#10
It's been proven that if you bolster your ground circuit the R/R's don't fail and your battery lasts a lot longer. Pretty much the charging system goes from flaky to rock solid. There's even a guy on the VFR forums who sells a kit that he calls the "VFRness" for this purpose. Do some searching and you'll find lots of info about it.
I think I accidentally did a similar thing to my VTR when I bought it. It was my second VTR, this one being a salvage bike to rebuild. The R/R and connector were cut (by the junkyard bastages) off the harness so I just had flying leads. I got a use R/R that luckily also had the connector but I had to rebuild the wiring to it. All that I has was larger gauge wire and I built an overkill ground path.
*Knock on wood* my 1998's original battery is still working perfectly and no R/R issues to be seen. Twelve years on the original battery is unheard of, but the guys who have modified the wiring get that and more.
I think I accidentally did a similar thing to my VTR when I bought it. It was my second VTR, this one being a salvage bike to rebuild. The R/R and connector were cut (by the junkyard bastages) off the harness so I just had flying leads. I got a use R/R that luckily also had the connector but I had to rebuild the wiring to it. All that I has was larger gauge wire and I built an overkill ground path.
*Knock on wood* my 1998's original battery is still working perfectly and no R/R issues to be seen. Twelve years on the original battery is unheard of, but the guys who have modified the wiring get that and more.
#11
+1 on bolstering the ground circuit. Over 15 years ago my '83 BMW R100RS fried the rectifier bridge. When I went to the dealer to buy the part, a tech told me to buy 4 new ground wires and mount them in pairs (factory uses 2) and to solder the crimped connections. Also the engine case where they mount was painted black that year, so he suggested scraping the paint off where the ground wires attach.
The fix lasted for 12 more years until I bought my VTR.
The fix lasted for 12 more years until I bought my VTR.
#12
Also, do you have pics of your current R/R? Cost? Ordering information?
Does your R/R allow me to keep my OEM connector? Last, I read on another thread that your R/R has a lifetime warranty. True?
#13
#14
Last this guy posted was four years ago... and besides, it's not really needed. Just buy a MOSFET unit (read Tweety's thread), which are far less susceptible to heat damage.
#15
+1 to 7moore7
A number of years ago I sent Circuit Burner $190 USD for one of his whiz bang regulator/rectifiers. I never received it, a refund or an apology. Circuit Burner is a crook.
A number of years ago I sent Circuit Burner $190 USD for one of his whiz bang regulator/rectifiers. I never received it, a refund or an apology. Circuit Burner is a crook.
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