No clutch. Won't start.
11-20-2016, 06:27 PM
#1
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Squid
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No clutch. Won't start.
I just recently picked up a new (to me) '99 superhawk. The bike turns on as far as lights and all but won't crank or turn over. What I do know is that there is a hole in the clutch master cylinder. What I don't know is ANYTHING ELSE about hydraulic clutch systems. Would a hole in the cylinder prevent the clutch from working at all?
I'd like to assume that there's a safety switch on the clutch therefore no clutch = no start, correct? Is there anything else on top of the hole in the cylinder that would be a more probable cause for the clutch not working?
I'd like to assume that there's a safety switch on the clutch therefore no clutch = no start, correct? Is there anything else on top of the hole in the cylinder that would be a more probable cause for the clutch not working?
11-20-2016, 06:35 PM
#2
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You should still be able to start the bike with zero hydro fluid in the clutch. Put it in neutral and crank. And yes, a leak and/or air in the system can/will prevent the clutch from functioning.
11-20-2016, 06:46 PM
#3
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The lack of a functioning clutch wouldn't prevent it from starting? I put it in neutral and tried to start it but I'm not getting much of a response. Nothing more than my headlight getting dimmer while I'm pressing the button. No crank/turning of the engine. No clicking/ticking sounds. Just a dim headlight.
11-20-2016, 06:52 PM
#5
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11-20-2016, 07:49 PM
#11
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11-21-2016, 01:10 PM
#12
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Sounds electrical to me!
Neutral light should be on when the gearbox is in neutral. The neutral switch completes the circuit to ground for the starter solenoid, so no continuity = no starting.
If the neutral switch circuit is not complete (ie faulty switch or bike is in gear) there is a secondary circuit to ground through the clutch lever switch (must be pulled in) AND the sidestand switch (must be up) that allows starting in gear.
Given the random light on the dash when the neutral switch is worked, I'd be looking at either the clutch switch (not unknown to get a wire crushed onto the bar and causing grounding issues) or maybe the clutch diode.
Here's a dropbox link to the service manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnh696qph5...1000F.pdf?dl=0
Neutral light should be on when the gearbox is in neutral. The neutral switch completes the circuit to ground for the starter solenoid, so no continuity = no starting.
If the neutral switch circuit is not complete (ie faulty switch or bike is in gear) there is a secondary circuit to ground through the clutch lever switch (must be pulled in) AND the sidestand switch (must be up) that allows starting in gear.
Given the random light on the dash when the neutral switch is worked, I'd be looking at either the clutch switch (not unknown to get a wire crushed onto the bar and causing grounding issues) or maybe the clutch diode.
Here's a dropbox link to the service manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnh696qph5...1000F.pdf?dl=0
11-21-2016, 03:15 PM
#13
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Sounds electrical to me!
Neutral light should be on when the gearbox is in neutral. The neutral switch completes the circuit to ground for the starter solenoid, so no continuity = no starting.
If the neutral switch circuit is not complete (ie faulty switch or bike is in gear) there is a secondary circuit to ground through the clutch lever switch (must be pulled in) AND the sidestand switch (must be up) that allows starting in gear.
Given the random light on the dash when the neutral switch is worked, I'd be looking at either the clutch switch (not unknown to get a wire crushed onto the bar and causing grounding issues) or maybe the clutch diode.
Here's a dropbox link to the service manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnh696qph5...1000F.pdf?dl=0
Neutral light should be on when the gearbox is in neutral. The neutral switch completes the circuit to ground for the starter solenoid, so no continuity = no starting.
If the neutral switch circuit is not complete (ie faulty switch or bike is in gear) there is a secondary circuit to ground through the clutch lever switch (must be pulled in) AND the sidestand switch (must be up) that allows starting in gear.
Given the random light on the dash when the neutral switch is worked, I'd be looking at either the clutch switch (not unknown to get a wire crushed onto the bar and causing grounding issues) or maybe the clutch diode.
Here's a dropbox link to the service manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnh696qph5...1000F.pdf?dl=0
11-21-2016, 05:28 PM
#14
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The starter circuit is completely electrical, so long as the various switches are in the right place the starter solenoid should close and energise the starter motor. Whether the clutch hydraulics have any fluid is not part of the system (that also means that you could start the bike in gear and with the clutch engaged, so long as the clutch lever was pulled in).
11-21-2016, 06:59 PM
#16
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The fact the low fuel light illuminates suggests you've maybe got a broken or pinched wire somewhere that is interfering with happy circuitry. The low fuel light has a permanent live feed (blue/brown), the circuit is completed to earth through the low fuel sensor, so if it illuminating and the fuel level is not low, there is a new earth formed somewhere down the line.
Also, the headlight should go right off when the starter button is pushed, not just go dim, as the button should cut the headlight circuit. Maybe start looking there for a broken or corroded switch.
You can jumper the solenoid terminals direct to the frame, connecting the the G/R wire to the frame will bypass all the other ground sources (neutral switch, clutch switch, sidestand switch) and at least tell you if one of those is at fault. If that didn't work, connecting a wire to the other terminal of the solenoid (Y/R) and touching that to the battery positive should at least spin the starter motor, and would suggest the fault lies on the supply side of the solenoid.
Hope you've got a multimeter, you will need it.
11-21-2016, 07:23 PM
#17
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Ok, so upon supplying power directly to the terminal going to the starter, the starter DOES spin. Are the sidestand, clutch, and neutral switches the only ones that could prevent it from starting? I'm fairly confident that the sidestand switch is fine, I went ahead and ordered a neutral switch along with my clutch master cylinder just to qualify for free shipping (the switch was cheaper than the shipping cost would've been), so I'll be putting that on next week.
11-21-2016, 07:28 PM
#18
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As far as the happy circuitry being interfered with, I know the previous owner swapped wiring harnesses. Is there a way that he could have easily messed that up? Or just put the lights in the wrong spot when putting it back together? Is that possible?
11-21-2016, 07:57 PM
#19
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If you did the earth side, then yes, there is no earth connection being made. This goes either through the neutral switch (and that is easy to test for continuity to ground, in neutral) OR through the clutch switch AND the sidestand switch.
If you jumpered the power side, then your earth circuit must be OK, and the fault lies on the power side, which goes through the ignition switch, 10A fuse, kill switch and starter button.
11-21-2016, 08:23 PM
#21
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So back to the handlebar controls I think, the headlight should not dim, it should shut off when the starter button is pressed, so I'd start there. There is a red connector on the cables for that pod, would pay to check that you are getting 12v out on the Y/R wire there when the button is pushed, and that the headlight power blue/white drops to 0 when that happens.
11-21-2016, 08:31 PM
#22
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I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that you were right and that the headlight does go all the way out when I press the button. I did notice, however, that sometimes when I turn the key the headlight comes on right away. Sometimes it won't come on until after I press the start button. Sometimes, when it's already on, it'll go off when I press the start button, and it'll come back on as soon as I release the button. Other times it'll stay off until I press the button again, once or twice. Weird? I don't know if that hints to any possible causes.
I do apologize for the n00b questions. I haven't attempted to troubleshoot a motorcycle since I was 16 working on my pops' old KZ1000 with him. I'm making an attempt to learn from all of this though, so I appreciate your patience, mate.
I do apologize for the n00b questions. I haven't attempted to troubleshoot a motorcycle since I was 16 working on my pops' old KZ1000 with him. I'm making an attempt to learn from all of this though, so I appreciate your patience, mate.
11-22-2016, 10:34 AM
#24
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After reading the OPs last post I think I would direct my attention to the starter button. All the issues with the random headlight operation sound to me like the switch is not making good contact. As was pointed out already the headlight wiring goes thru the starter button. When you push it it interrupts the circuit for the headlight and completes the starter circuit. The light antics sound like a bad contact or gummed up with old dry grease inside the switch. If the light contacts are acting up it is possible that the starter ones are also having problems.
I had similar issues with a first generation interceptor. Started with the headlight not always coming back on after starting. Had to stop and start the bike several times sometimes to get the light on. Eventually got to the point that the starter got unreliable.
Changed the switch and never had another problem.
Do a search for slow or non flashing turn signals. Most end up being the switch or less often the flasher. The advice is often to clean the switch out with contact cleaner and add fresh dielectric grease. All this would also be relevant to the starter switch.
I had similar issues with a first generation interceptor. Started with the headlight not always coming back on after starting. Had to stop and start the bike several times sometimes to get the light on. Eventually got to the point that the starter got unreliable.
Changed the switch and never had another problem.
Do a search for slow or non flashing turn signals. Most end up being the switch or less often the flasher. The advice is often to clean the switch out with contact cleaner and add fresh dielectric grease. All this would also be relevant to the starter switch.
Last edited by waltr; 11-22-2016 at 10:39 AM. Reason: added turn signel referance
11-22-2016, 01:37 PM
#25
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I too think the fault probably lies in the starter switch, as the headlight behaviour supports that. AFAIK the battery has enough juice as the jumper from the battery positive to the solenoid got the starter spinning. But there is also an unexplained occurence of no neutral light, but the low fuel light illuminating, which sounds like a damaged earth wire (maybe).
11-22-2016, 04:16 PM
#27
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Ok, I decided to go back through, and check my starter solenoid for continuity and things seemed a little off to me. First of all, I had no continuity. Not when I pressed the start button or anything. The weird part is that (and I tried a few times to verify the frequency) once every third time that I would touch the prongs of my multimeter the the terminals, it would show continuity for just a split second, without the button pressed or anything.
Also, for anyone out there like me, when you turn the key to check on something, be sure that there is nothing touching your headlight bulb or, like me, you end up burning your turn signal wires.
Also, for anyone out there like me, when you turn the key to check on something, be sure that there is nothing touching your headlight bulb or, like me, you end up burning your turn signal wires.
11-22-2016, 06:10 PM
#28
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Further investigation suggests that the solenoid/relay itself is gravy. The magnets make contact inside when power is supplied directly. I have continuity in all wires from the starter switch and killswitch back to the fuse box and relay.
The only thing left that I could imagine is the switch itself. Could it really be that simple?
The only thing left that I could imagine is the switch itself. Could it really be that simple?
11-22-2016, 10:02 PM
#29
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Gravy? Is that good or bad?
I recently chased down a similar gremlin except for me it was no start when hot.
In my epic journey I replaced a lot of stuff. Including the solenoid, starter button, neutral switch, etc. (you can read my no hot start thread).
In the end I needed the neutral switch (cheap and easy to swap) but also the starter solenoid is cheap and easy along with the starter switch. My bike is a 98 so I am happy to put new (or ebay) parts on since its my every day transportation.
Just saying, they are mostly inexpensive and probably worn anyway. Depending on how soon you want/need to ride.
I recently chased down a similar gremlin except for me it was no start when hot.
In my epic journey I replaced a lot of stuff. Including the solenoid, starter button, neutral switch, etc. (you can read my no hot start thread).
In the end I needed the neutral switch (cheap and easy to swap) but also the starter solenoid is cheap and easy along with the starter switch. My bike is a 98 so I am happy to put new (or ebay) parts on since its my every day transportation.
Just saying, they are mostly inexpensive and probably worn anyway. Depending on how soon you want/need to ride.
11-23-2016, 05:08 AM
#30
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Continuity
Continuity is one thing. Carrying enough current to energize the start relay is another. Many times I have been able to get a good continuity reading through a circuit but when you try to power something the bad connection will not allow enough current to flow. You need to measure voltage available to the start relay. Since the circuit is completed through the various switches on the ground side of the relay look for voltage there if voltage present then the path to ground is not complete.
